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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?...
    #7914133 - 01/22/08 10:47 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

art said:


I don't mind so much that people are spending my money for social issues, it is the national security that pisses me off.




Well, that seems a little odd since the one, national security, is clearly mandated in the Constitution and the other is most definitely not. Perhaps you live in the wrong country. The guess here is that you pay a relatively paltry sum in taxes and receive far more benefits than your contribution would otherwise produce if you had to pay for them on the open market. Hence your love of "social" programs. I believe this to be true of almost all who espouse spending on social programs. Plain greed.




zappas' position raises two questions ..

1) are inflated healthcare costs in the US really the result of supply and demand as zappa claims.. or simply the result of (well-known and documented) rampant cronyism?...

2) is cronyism cronyism.. or is it just the natural result of upward pressure on prices?...(interestingly..the latter establishes a feedback loop which could cause the price to become infinite)...


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InvisibleMinstrel
Man of Science
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #7914952 - 01/22/08 02:35 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

One thing is for sure, and that is that Zzzap always likes to claim that young people are less deserving of the benevolence the government dishes because they go to school and live with their parents, and are in effect, tax leaches. Zzzap is more entitled for his opinions, because he's spent the last 80% of his life as a slave to the system, and conditioned to think that everything is ok.

He is right, though, that your government should not be dishing out these social programs, especially when they don't plan to raise taxes to raise the funds to be able to do it. They'll just inflate the currency. But they do that for all of their spending anyway....


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #7915142 - 01/22/08 03:15 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

art said:


I don't mind so much that people are spending my money for social issues, it is the national security that pisses me off.




Well, that seems a little odd since the one, national security, is clearly mandated in the Constitution and the other is most definitely not. Perhaps you live in the wrong country. The guess here is that you pay a relatively paltry sum in taxes and receive far more benefits than your contribution would otherwise produce if you had to pay for them on the open market. Hence your love of "social" programs. I believe this to be true of almost all who espouse spending on social programs. Plain greed.




zappas' position raises two questions ..

1) are inflated healthcare costs in the US really the result of supply and demand as zappa claims.. or simply the result of (well-known and documented) rampant cronyism?...




Health care costs are seemingly high for a variety of reasons.

1. Ludicrous torts and malpractice claims.
2. The existence of an insurance bureaucracy at all, which will only increase once the gummint gets into it. Every single insurance company employee is a non-productive drain on health dollars. They do not contribute one iota to actual care.
3. Number 2 above is compounded tremendously by the insurance liaisons in every doctor's office who have to make sure every form is filled out perfectly. More non-productive bureaucrats.
4. Unrealistic patient demands. Everybody seems to think they are entitled to the top specialist in the world. On their plan. Which they bitch about the cost of and which chisels doctors.
5. Morons who go to the doctor and demand antibiotics for colds. Suck it up, pansies, you don't go to the doctor for every sniffle and you don't need medicine for it either. Fucking pussies.
6. Related to 1 & 4 is the enormous explosion of incredibly expensive machinery and R & D costs. We already have all the easy stuff. Everything else is just going to cost more and more to develop and implement. It's related to #1 in that doctors get sued if they don't use these incredibly expensive tests every time and something comes up that could have been caught if they did, even if the likelihood of the test's utility was minimal.
7. The single greatest factor pushing the cost of healthcare up, aside from general stupidity and selfishness, is that the consumer does not directly pay for the service.

I'll speak for myself, sweetheart. In the future if you have a question just ask. Don't even try to read my mind, it's a good bit beyond the "See Spot Conspire To Fuck Hippies and Poor People" stuff you're used to.


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Minstrel]
    #7915211 - 01/22/08 03:30 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Minstrel said:
One thing is for sure, and that is that Zzzap always likes to claim that young people are less deserving of the benevolence the government dishes because they go to school and live with their parents, and are in effect, tax leaches. Zzzap is more entitled for his opinions, because he's spent the last 80% of his life as a slave to the system, and conditioned to think that everything is ok.




Young people are neither less nor more deserving of what they cannot pay for than anybody else. They are not special. My slavery has rewarded me very well. You can only dream that you will someday be rewarded half as well. Not likely, though, since you seem to be more concerned with panhandling than actually working to get what you want.


--------------------


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InvisibleMinstrel
Man of Science
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7915995 - 01/22/08 05:50 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

In my short life, I've made a greater contribution to human scientific knowledge than you could ever comprehend and hope to appreciate. There is little question that the system that you've supported all your life has done nothing but get in the way.


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Minstrel]
    #7916033 - 01/22/08 05:58 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Whatever you say. Now get a real job and support yourself.


--------------------


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OfflineMrBump
Third prize is you're fired
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Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 4,263
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7917094 - 01/22/08 08:54 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

art said:


I don't mind so much that people are spending my money for social issues, it is the national security that pisses me off.




Well, that seems a little odd since the one, national security, is clearly mandated in the Constitution and the other is most definitely not. Perhaps you live in the wrong country. The guess here is that you pay a relatively paltry sum in taxes and receive far more benefits than your contribution would otherwise produce if you had to pay for them on the open market. Hence your love of "social" programs. I believe this to be true of almost all who espouse spending on social programs. Plain greed.




zappas' position raises two questions ..

1) are inflated healthcare costs in the US really the result of supply and demand as zappa claims.. or simply the result of (well-known and documented) rampant cronyism?...




Health care costs are seemingly high for a variety of reasons.

1. Ludicrous torts and malpractice claims.
2. The existence of an insurance bureaucracy at all, which will only increase once the gummint gets into it. Every single insurance company employee is a non-productive drain on health dollars. They do not contribute one iota to actual care.
3. Number 2 above is compounded tremendously by the insurance liaisons in every doctor's office who have to make sure every form is filled out perfectly. More non-productive bureaucrats.
4. Unrealistic patient demands. Everybody seems to think they are entitled to the top specialist in the world. On their plan. Which they bitch about the cost of and which chisels doctors.
5. Morons who go to the doctor and demand antibiotics for colds. Suck it up, pansies, you don't go to the doctor for every sniffle and you don't need medicine for it either. Fucking pussies.
6. Related to 1 & 4 is the enormous explosion of incredibly expensive machinery and R & D costs. We already have all the easy stuff. Everything else is just going to cost more and more to develop and implement. It's related to #1 in that doctors get sued if they don't use these incredibly expensive tests every time and something comes up that could have been caught if they did, even if the likelihood of the test's utility was minimal.
7. The single greatest factor pushing the cost of healthcare up, aside from general stupidity and selfishness, is that the consumer does not directly pay for the service.

I'll speak for myself, sweetheart. In the future if you have a question just ask. Don't even try to read my mind, it's a good bit beyond the "See Spot Conspire To Fuck Hippies and Poor People" stuff you're used to.





Also, what drives up the price of many policies is that certain states have laws that require insurance companies to cover bullshit treatments like acupuncture and chiropractics, or exorbitant treatments like massages. if you have a tight neck, just go to your doc and get a script for a massage - a free day at the spa, hooray!

these laws seem to always be pushed by these "provider" groups who lobby the politicians to be included.


--------------------
If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all.

There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn.

Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?


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OfflineCubie
Moderator
Male


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 8,840
Loc: Down the rabbit hole...
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: MrBump]
    #7917195 - 01/22/08 09:07 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Cubies take on health care.

Abolish war on drugs.

Use the money to provide free coast to coast healthcare...thankyou goodnight


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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Cubie]
    #7917985 - 01/22/08 11:16 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Cubie said:
Cubies take on health care.

Abolish war on drugs.

Use the money to provide free coast to coast healthcare...thankyou goodnight




DING DING DING!!!!

we have a winner.

no matter how you slice it this country could easily provide health care to every citizen if we just stopped blowing our wad on worthless wars against drugs and invading non threatening countries, and maintaining dozens of major military bases in foreign land.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineGnosticWarrior
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Registered: 03/11/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Oahu, Hawaii
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7918483 - 01/23/08 01:53 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Health care costs are seemingly high for a variety of reasons.

1. Ludicrous torts and malpractice claims.

7. The single greatest factor pushing the cost of healthcare up, aside from general stupidity and selfishness, is that the consumer does not directly pay for the service.






I like your points, 1 & 7. But I'd like to add to it. I believe in fairness and equality, even if it can never be achieved in should always be strived for. So when it comes to medical care and cost, each person should pay according to the medical services rendered. The problem with the insurance and medical industry is that the healthcare providers are recouping their costs from services rendered but not paid by those who received such service by placing those costs on to those who can. I can't really blame them, for instance those hospitals that have to take in and treat homeless people, if they can past those costs in the form as higher prices to those with the ability to pay, then the hospital would have to eat it. To be fair, if you can't pay you get no service. Just like if you can't pay you don't get a car. The insured, should not have to pay for the non-insured.

We need better accounting. I can't see why a purely for profit capitalist medical care cannot be provided. Just like with education you have private schools. But the problem is that the people are already being forced to pay taxes for govt. funded services. This makes the system suck. Capitalist for profit creates better service. This is why public schools suck and also when medical care operates on private and public funds. Don't mix the two.

You would be surprised, that if govt. did not fund these programs to supposedly help those who can't afford, private citizens would step up and contribute on their own free will to fund non-profit organizations. If this were the case maybe the Gates Foundation would actually make American issues more of priority. But why should they when govt. already throws big money at it. The problem is govt's are poor asset allocators and don't know how to get the best service for every dollar spent. A capitalist knows how.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
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Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: GnosticWarrior]
    #7918704 - 01/23/08 03:56 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

one point that was missed about socialized medicine is something has already been grossly abused: psychiatric medicine.
every single state medical program that has failed (read: bankrupt) has been entirely due to the outrageous cost of the pills and the overprescription of those pills.

just do some research on zyprexa... it is almost solely responsible for failed state medicare.

with the freedom to live your life the way you want, you have to take responsibility for its actions. If you smoke, dont exercise, eat McDonalds 5 times a week... then dont become outraged when you cant get proper diabetes treatment.
"I blew all my money on fucking up my liver, and Now the government wont buy me a new one! im dying here!".

I am a huge proponent of socialized programs, like public transportation, libraries, public schools.... but Americans abuse or neglect these things so they ultimately dont work... then we see more logical, healthy countries having near-flawless operation of socialized programs and we start pointing the finger at everyone but ourselves.
dont sit on the couch yelling at the tv when a soft story comes on about some extremely needy child needs a heart transplant because its mother was a crackhead... it is you people that have fucked that up, not the corporations. through the collective greed you have chipped away at that childs chance of getting that heart.


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OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7918907 - 01/23/08 06:56 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Minstrel said:
One thing is for sure, and that is that Zzzap always likes to claim that young people are less deserving of the benevolence the government dishes because they go to school and live with their parents, and are in effect, tax leaches. Zzzap is more entitled for his opinions, because he's spent the last 80% of his life as a slave to the system, and conditioned to think that everything is ok.




Young people are neither less nor more deserving of what they cannot pay for than anybody else. They are not special. My slavery has rewarded me very well. You can only dream that you will someday be rewarded half as well. Not likely, though, since you seem to be more concerned with panhandling than actually working to get what you want.




For those against Universal Health care like you, zappa, which idea bothers you the most (serious question)?

a) The money issue (taxes going up to pay for a bunch of welfare queens)

or

b) The beaurocracy (the theory that healthcare quality will go down and people will have to qait forever for critical operations)


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Offlinegluke bastid
Stinky Bum
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7919065 - 01/23/08 08:17 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

:lol:

I like that numbers 4-6 of your 7 points basically could all be summed up by one point: people seeking health care.

You think just like a health insurance company. Take the money from people, but don't provide any service so you can turn a profit.

Zappa, I am not exaggerating when I say that every time you go on one of these anti-socialized medicine tirades, you prove to me more than Hillary and all the socialized western countries combined that for-profit health care is a broken system. That and the $1000 per month cost of insulin that I need to survive vs. the zero dollars per month that my cousins north of the border spend on insulin, blood sugar monitors and doctor's visits.

And you're telling me I should be happy to work hard to hand over $15K/yer to pharmacuetical companies? Stay away from life coaching, bub.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7919134 - 01/23/08 08:43 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Why should I pay for your insulin?





Phred


--------------------


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Offlinegluke bastid
Stinky Bum
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Registered: 12/20/00
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Loc: Charm City
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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Phred]
    #7919187 - 01/23/08 09:03 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Why should I pay for your insulin?





In theory you shouldn't have to. The funny thing is that if you are a US taxpayer you already are. Billions of dollars a year are wasted in hospitals that provide emergency service to diabetics (and other people with chronic conditions) who can't afford insulin over the counter. It is a vicious cycle. Wouldn't you rather have your penny go towards my insulin as oppossed to your dollar go towards my ambulance ride? Preventative care is cheaper for you and healthier for me.

I understand that in theory you don't see any justification for paying for socialized medicine. In practice, however, it is better for all.

You have asked me this exact question before and I have given you a similar answer. I don't really see much of a point of getting into this again. The only reason I brought it up was to let zappa know that, not only has he or anyone else not been able to bring up a convincing argument that for-profit health is a preferrable system, it is quite the opposite. Every attempt to justify the system to anyone with experience being sick only makes it more and more clear that we have to throw the entire for profit system in the incinerator. ITS DEADER THAN MOSES.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleArp
roving mycophagist
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Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Phred]
    #7919195 - 01/23/08 09:10 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Why should I pay for your insulin?





Cause you're kind, and not autistic like those other assholes? :smile:


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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Arp]
    #7919210 - 01/23/08 09:22 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Why should i pay for a military to protect this country?

i would love nothing more than to see phred and zappa die in a terrorist attack. ever see that beheading video? yeah that way would do just nicely. seriously though if you think paying billions for military operations in other countries to protect the lives and well being of american citizens why is it such a hard leap for you guys to pay for health care to protect the lives and well being of american citizens?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7919217 - 01/23/08 09:26 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

We should have our missle defense system only protect red states

:wink:


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InvisibleArp
roving mycophagist
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Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: BrAiN]
    #7919222 - 01/23/08 09:29 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

What's up with the shift? Red is the color of the left, and blue of the right. Think I read somewhere that the republicans used to use the blue color and the democrats the red, but somehow it changed?


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OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Arp]
    #7919225 - 01/23/08 09:30 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Interesting eh? Must have been the democrats who did the color coding :wink:


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: BrAiN]
    #7919239 - 01/23/08 09:35 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

BrAiN said:
Interesting eh? Must have been the democrats who did the color coding :wink:




:lol:


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7919340 - 01/23/08 10:41 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
:lol:

I like that numbers 4-6 of your 7 points basically could all be summed up by one point: people seeking health care.




Since you seem to have missed it, this wasn't a tirade against socialized medicine.  It was a reasoned treatise elucidating several reasons why health care costs are as high as they are. 

My tirades against socialized health care are nowhere near that lengthy.  Governments suck at running things and I don't give a fuck how much your medicine costs I don't feel like paying for it.  Pay your own way, slacker.

Points 4&5 are about patient abuse, and by that I mean dumb ass patients who think they are entitled to the best of everything compounded by their idiotic flooding of the services for nothing.  Selfish parasitic morons.  In my entire life I never saw a doctor for a cold or flu or small cut or bruise or sprain.  And yet douches flood doctors' offices for this crap.  The doctors then have to do comprehehnsive examinations for fear of malpractice claims (I call it sueage).  #6 has to do with the fact that all the easy stuff has been done for decades.  Everything new is EXPENSIVE.  There were no million dollar MRI machines when I grew up.  Now there are.  They are expensive but it is not necessary that every fucking facility have one.
Quote:



You think just like a health insurance company. Take the money from people, but don't provide any service so you can turn a profit.




I despise the health insurance companies.  They are hardly better than the government but at least you can sue them.  As I mentioned in 2, maybe 3, of the items I think they are driving up the cost with bureaucracy.  Their own bureaucracy and the doctors' bureaucracy.  7 refers to the divorce between the service providers and the service recipients.
Quote:



Zappa, I am not exaggerating when I say that every time you go on one of these anti-socialized medicine tirades, you prove to me more than Hillary and all the socialized western countries combined that for-profit health care is a broken system. That and the $1000 per month cost of insulin that I need to survive vs. the zero dollars per month that my cousins north of the border spend on insulin, blood sugar monitors and doctor's visits.




You are NOT why I write these things.  You are my opponent, not my target reader.  You are clearly invested in taking money from me so that you don't have to pay your own way.  I don't blame you for that but neither do I have any respect for thieves and beggars.  Your problems are your problems and my problems are my problems.  If you ask nicely I might be inclined to help.  But you don't.  You just want to send the gunsels to my door and appropriate my property for yourself.  And to that I say, fuck you.  With all due respect, as in none.
Quote:



And you're telling me I should be happy to work hard to hand over $15K/yer to pharmacuetical companies? Stay away from life coaching, bub.




Not telling you that at all.  Fucking do without.  I don't give a shit.  Life coaching?  I wouldn't think of it.  I have zero desire to tell you or anyone else here how to act.  What is wrong with you?


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7919344 - 01/23/08 10:42 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

gluke_bastid writes:

Quote:

understand that in theory you don't see any justification for paying for socialized medicine. In practice, however, it is better for all.




The irony meter is off the scale. Theory vs practice, you say? Your theory is that it is better for all. The actual practice of the two original socialized medicine countries -- the UK and Canada -- is disastrous.

As for your belief that your insulin and test strips and stuff would be free if you lived in Canada, I am almost certain you are mistaken. Prescription drugs aren't covered by Canada's health care system unless administered in a hospital. Insulin is a prescription drug.

See http://www.diabetes.ca/section_services/insurance.asp -- go to the link, click for the .pdf file "Answers to common questions about insurance and diabetes" -- it is found at the top of the page on the right -- then go to the second page of the .pdf and check "I am moving to Canada. What kind of diabetes coverage can I get?"



Phred


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7919350 - 01/23/08 10:44 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Why should i pay for a military to protect this country?




Somehow I suspect that you pay FUCKALL for anything in taxes. That's usually a characteristic of panhandlers.
Quote:



i would love nothing more than to see phred and zappa die in a terrorist attack. ever see that beheading video? yeah that way would do just nicely. seriously though if you think paying billions for military operations in other countries to protect the lives and well being of american citizens why is it such a hard leap for you guys to pay for health care to protect the lives and well being of american citizens?




You are almost a human being. But not quite.


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Cubie]
    #7919362 - 01/23/08 10:48 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Cubie said:
Cubies take on health care.

Abolish war on drugs.

Use the money to provide free coast to coast healthcare...thankyou goodnight




Zappaisgod's take on the War on Drugs. Abolish it and give me my fucking money back. Also, for anybody to be eligible for gummint health care they must be within weight guidelines, test clean for all drugs, including nicotine and alcohol, and get at least 30 minutes of strenuous exercise everyday. And prove it. Enjoy.


--------------------


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InvisibleJRayV
former guy on couch
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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: BrAiN]
    #7919428 - 01/23/08 11:19 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Why is it that so many Canadian citizens flock to the U.S. when they are seeking medical treatment?

Quote:

Capitalist for profit creates better service




I don't like knowing that if I were to develop cancer that I would be waiting in line for months to receive radiation treatment.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7919464 - 01/23/08 11:28 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

For someone who posts on a drug related website, you sure have a lot of plans that involve making people not do drugs :wink:


I think zaapa is 5-0. Lets bust a cap. :smile:


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InvisibleArp
roving mycophagist
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Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: BrAiN]
    #7919495 - 01/23/08 11:34 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

he's the human antabus (rectal) :captain:


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
Not here
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: JRayV]
    #7919574 - 01/23/08 12:01 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

JRayV said:
Why is it that so many Canadian citizens flock to the U.S. when they are seeking medical treatment?

I don't like knowing that if I were to develop cancer that I would be waiting in line for months to receive radiation treatment.




My father is a cancer patient and he did not have to "wait in line for months" to receive treatment. He is a rather critical person, but has had very few complaints about his experiences with the health care system here. I suspect your exaggerated impression of universal health care comes directly from the media or from hearsay, rather than actual experience with the Canadian health care system. I've never seen any hard numbers indicating exactly how many Canadians really do seek treatment in the US; please point me to a scientific source if you have one.

I am not arguing for universal health care in the US. The Canadian healthcare system is not perfect but it is hardly the disaster I see so many Americans describe. I have always received prompt and adequate treatment for my ailments.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Phred]
    #7919583 - 01/23/08 12:03 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Why should I pay for your insulin?





why should i pay for your gas in iraq??...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineBrAiN
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #7919816 - 01/23/08 01:07 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Because all the brown people must die for the world to be safe.

Once all the brown people are dead we can work on the fags and communists


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Offlinegluke bastid
Stinky Bum
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7919827 - 01/23/08 01:11 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Governments suck at running things and I don't give a fuck how much your medicine costs I don't feel like paying for it.




You don't pay for my medicine, but you do pay for the hundreds of thousands with chronic conditions who are more poor than me but no less sick who have to go to the hospital to receive treatment for preventable complications, even infections run amouk. And I'm talking about children, Zappa. Fucking 11 year old parasites.

Quote:

Pay your own way, slacker.



I do. And have. My entire life. I work hard. I am currently insured. I plan to always work hard. I like working hard, unlike you, who obviously hates work but loves huge piles of money. I adhere to Gandhi's notion that one of the seven social sins is wealth without work.
However when I look at other countries and see them uniformly better off, I ask "why?" Why are western countries with socialized medicine spending less on health care than the US? Why is the US ranked so low in terms of overall health? Why are there 50 million uninsured citizens here?

You keep giving me the same crap over and over. You keep telling me that I should support this dumb system that has failed so many of us, because you are offended by a system in which your precious tax money goes to health insurance. I don't care if you are offended. That is not a good argument. I don't care if you perceive me as being lazy, which is wholly inaccurate. Also a bad argument.

Quote:

Points 4&5 are about patient abuse, and by that I mean dumb ass patients who think they are entitled to the best of everything compounded by their idiotic flooding of the services for nothing. Selfish parasitic morons.




Hey Zappa's "target audience," if you continue to seek medicine or treatment when you are sick than you are a selfish parasitic moron! Welcome to American Health class 101!

Quote:

In my entire life I never saw a doctor for a cold or flu or small cut or bruise or sprain.




Why do you even bring this crap up? I'm talking about real illnesses here.

Quote:

I despise the health insurance companies. They are hardly better than the government but at least you can sue them.




But I thought you said that assholes who sue them drive up the costs.

Quote:

You are NOT why I write these things. You are my opponent, not my target reader. You are clearly invested in taking money from me so that you don't have to pay your own way.




Get over yourself. This isn't about YOU. I am not interested in taking your money away. And socialized medicine is paying my own way. I will be taxed. Probably pretty significantly. I don't care. I am already taxed to support the dumbest war in history, and no child left behind, and all of the other neo-conservative spend-happy bullshit that Bush has shat out over the last years. Might as well spend some of my money so I and my neighbors and homeless people and yes even you Zappa lord of assholes can benefit from healthier life and preventative care. I am interested in doing my part. I am interested in paying. Sign me up.

Quote:

And to that I say, fuck you. With all due respect, as in none.




Someone should ban your fat ass.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleJRayV
former guy on couch
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Registered: 10/20/06
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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7920019 - 01/23/08 02:07 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/canada.asp


Quote:

Why is it that so many Canadian citizens flock to the U.S. when they are seeking medical treatment?




Quote:

Capitalist for profit creates better service.




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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
Not here
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: JRayV]
    #7920089 - 01/23/08 02:31 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

JRayV said:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/canada.asp





Didn't see anything about how many Canadians seek treatment in the US in that article. To me it looked like someone's personal list of detractions of the Canadian system, most of which were debunked or determined by Snopes to be unverifiable anecdotes. Of the criticisms that were not debunked, I would agree they are places to improve. Wait times were, unsurprisingly, not as bad as described anecdotally, not to say there is no room for improvement.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: BrAiN]
    #7920125 - 01/23/08 02:44 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

BrAiN said:
For someone who posts on a drug related website, you sure have a lot of plans that involve making people not do drugs :wink:


I think zaapa is 5-0. Lets bust a cap. :smile:




I left something out.  With gummint health care; no motorcycles.  Or skydiving or mountain climbing or anything at all risky.

If I have to pay I get to demand that you take good care of yourself.  If I don't have to pay......knock your own dumb self out.  My drug philosophy is that you should have the right to fuck yourself up all you want.  If you choose to do so I should have zero obligation to bail you out.  At all.  Live in a refrigerator box.  I don't fucking care.  You have clearly failed at life.  You are not my problem.


--------------------


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InvisibleMinstrel
Man of Science
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7920171 - 01/23/08 02:57 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

WhiskeyClone said:
Quote:

JRayV said:
Why is it that so many Canadian citizens flock to the U.S. when they are seeking medical treatment?

I don't like knowing that if I were to develop cancer that I would be waiting in line for months to receive radiation treatment.




My father is a cancer patient and he did not have to "wait in\\ line for months" to receive treatment. He is a rather critical person, but has had very few complaints about his experiences with the health care system here. I suspect your exaggerated impression of universal health care comes directly from the media or from hearsay, rather than actual experience with the Canadian health care system. I've never seen any hard numbers indicating exactly how many Canadians really do seek treatment in the US; please point me to a scientific source if you have one.

I am not arguing for universal health care in the US. The Canadian healthcare system is not perfect but it is hardly the disaster I see so many Americans describe. I have always received prompt and adequate treatment for my ailments.




Spot on. No health care system is going to be perfect. I know very few Canadians who are overly upset with the system, and the ones that are still wouldn't rather have the American system of health.


--------------------


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OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7920205 - 01/23/08 03:12 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

BrAiN said:
For someone who posts on a drug related website, you sure have a lot of plans that involve making people not do drugs :wink:


I think zaapa is 5-0. Lets bust a cap. :smile:




I left something out.  With gummint health care; no motorcycles.  Or skydiving or mountain climbing or anything at all risky.

If I have to pay I get to demand that you take good care of yourself.  If I don't have to pay......knock your own dumb self out.  My drug philosophy is that you should have the right to fuck yourself up all you want.  If you choose to do so I should have zero obligation to bail you out.  At all.  Live in a refrigerator box.  I don't fucking care.  You have clearly failed at life.  You are not my problem.




You already have to pay for someone else. What do you think your health insurance premiums are for? If you don't utilize as much value as you put in, the someone else is just using the money you're putting in.

So why not make those rules required for health insurance companies also? THe more people fuck themselves up, the more healthy people still have to pay.

Same principle


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7920226 - 01/23/08 03:19 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Governments suck at running things and I don't give a fuck how much your medicine costs I don't feel like paying for it.




You don't pay for my medicine, but you do pay for the hundreds of thousands with chronic conditions who are more poor than me but no less sick who have to go to the hospital to receive treatment for preventable complications, even infections run amouk. And I'm talking about children, Zappa. Fucking 11 year old parasites.




Yes, I do pay for those more poor than you. And their children. And what the fuck were their parents doing having children they can't support? Don't give me a line of shit that they didn't know they were losers when they got preggers. They were almost all already clearly failures. Very few are episodically unfortunate. You just can't seem to follow a point. You would make a lousy hunting dog.
Quote:



Quote:

Pay your own way, slacker.



I do. And have. My entire life. I work hard. I am currently insured. I plan to always work hard.




Didn't you just whine that you didn't want to pay for your insulin? Why yes, yes you did. I applaud your independence. I also despise your panhandling.
Quote:




I like working hard, unlike you, who obviously hates work but loves huge piles of money. I adhere to Gandhi's notion that one of the seven social sins is wealth without work.




I inherited nothing
Quote:


However when I look at other countries and see them uniformly better off, I ask "why?"



They aren't.
Quote:


Why are western countries with socialized medicine spending less on health care than the US?



Because we carry them and their care sucks.
Quote:



Why is the US ranked so low in terms of overall health? Why are there 50 million uninsured citizens here?


Because the rankers are socialists.
Quote:



You keep giving me the same crap over and over. You keep telling me that I should support this dumb system that has failed so many of us, because you are offended by a system in which your precious tax money goes to health insurance. I don't care if you are offended. That is not a good argument. I don't care if you perceive me as being lazy, which is wholly inaccurate. Also a bad argument.




I'm not offended. I don't care if you are lazy. I don't care if you are poor or rich. All I care about is that you not be a burden to me. I don't know you, I'm not related to you and I probably wouldn't like you if I met you. All your arguments amount to a transfer of funds from me to you and losers of your ilk. I'd rather not.
Quote:



Quote:

Points 4&5 are about patient abuse, and by that I mean dumb ass patients who think they are entitled to the best of everything compounded by their idiotic flooding of the services for nothing. Selfish parasitic morons.




Hey Zappa's "target audience," if you continue to seek medicine or treatment when you are sick than you are a selfish parasitic moron! Welcome to American Health class 101!




You really are out of touch. When a service is "free" it gets abused. This is beyond obvious. You are beyond obtuse.
Quote:



Quote:

In my entire life I never saw a doctor for a cold or flu or small cut or bruise or sprain.




Why do you even bring this crap up? I'm talking about real illnesses here.




Because I am talking about how health care costs become inflated through abuse. Holy fucking shit, it's like talking to a rock.
Quote:



Quote:

I despise the health insurance companies. They are hardly better than the government but at least you can sue them.




But I thought you said that assholes who sue them drive up the costs.





Spurious torts do. Real malpractice doesn't. Real malpractice will be unadressable when the gummint does it. Also, and this is a serious conceptual failing you have, I wasn't making a case against socialized medicine in my post. I was addressing the question of cost factors for health care. They are two different things.
Quote:




Quote:

You are NOT why I write these things. You are my opponent, not my target reader. You are clearly invested in taking money from me so that you don't have to pay your own way.




Get over yourself. This isn't about YOU. I am not interested in taking your money away. And socialized medicine is paying my own way. I will be taxed.



Politics is always about "me". Will you be taxed enough to pay your own way? Then why on earth would you want to put the gummint in charge of the care you get? You remove all choice. You will get what they say you will get or you will get nothing at all. Somehow I think you are more full of shit than two Christmas turkeys about what you pay for.
Quote:





Probably pretty significantly. I don't care. I am already taxed to support the dumbest war in history, and no child left behind, and all of the other neo-conservative spend-happy bullshit that Bush has shat out over the last years. Might as well spend some of my money so I and my neighbors and homeless people and yes even you Zappa lord of assholes can benefit from healthier life and preventative care. I am interested in doing my part. I am interested in paying. Sign me up.




No Child costs almost nothing and is a call FOR wealth redistribution. It isn't a neo thing at all you incredibly ignorant cipher. Co sponsor, Ted Kennedy. Some neo-con. You want preventive care? Stop smoking, drinking, toking, tooting, shooting, riding motor cycles, skydiving, mountain climbing, etc. etc. etc. No more fried foods for you. No. Fucking. Nothing. Your interested in paying? No one is stopping you. Pay. I pay too. I pay for me and my wife and my kids. The rest of you can pay for yourselves. What the hell, sport that I am, I'll even chip in for truly unfortunate people. The rest of you? Nothing.
Quote:





Quote:

And to that I say, fuck you. With all due respect, as in none.




Someone should ban your fat ass.




Nobody on this forum gets flamed more than me and that isn't a flame.


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: BrAiN]
    #7920253 - 01/23/08 03:26 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

BrAiN said:

You already have to pay for someone else. What do you think your health insurance premiums are for? If you don't utilize as much value as you put in, the someone else is just using the money you're putting in.




True. That is the nature of ALL insurance. It is also my choice.
Quote:



So why not make those rules required for health insurance companies also? THe more people fuck themselves up, the more healthy people still have to pay.

Same principle




Dangerous people get kicked out all the time. The thing about gummint mandated health care is that nobody can get kicked out so either everybody pays more for losers or losers get denied care. And by losers in this context I mean all McDonald's(obesity) customers and anybody who eats fried food(cholesterol) or sushi(mercury).


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7920426 - 01/23/08 04:18 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

True. That is the nature of ALL insurance. It is also my choice.

It might not be for long.:(

I see the problem in the health care system as a problem in the mental/emotional state of the average citizen. Unwilling to understand their responsiblilty for understanding the basics of staying healthy and the medical professions willingness to sell them anything to make a buck. The whole things broken IMO. I havent used a doctor in many years. I'm in my  mid 50s and healthy because I take good care of myself and I rarely find a doctor that knows more than I do about the basics of being healthy or preventive medicine.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Icelander]
    #7920433 - 01/23/08 04:20 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Yes but I don't think anyone should have an obligation to take care of themselves. Hence I have no obligation to take care of them either.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7921773 - 01/23/08 08:46 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

I agree.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
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Posts: 6,875
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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7922258 - 01/23/08 10:23 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

BrAiN said:

You already have to pay for someone else. What do you think your health insurance premiums are for? If you don't utilize as much value as you put in, the someone else is just using the money you're putting in.




True. That is the nature of ALL insurance. It is also my choice.
Quote:







Probably the most simple, articulate thing you've ever said on this board. How can I argue with that???? The only thing I can say is that it WOULD be nice if insurance companies would make their financial dealing more transparent so you can SEE how much you;re getting in return on your premiums compares to other health insurance companies ... that way you could see how much you're getting ripped off.

Maybe thats our country's first step in health care reform... more mandatory reports/access to your return on "investment" (or premiums in this case) and how much you pay in compared to others and how much you get out compared to others, and how mucn salary the execs are making


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OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7922275 - 01/23/08 10:26 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

BrAiN said:

You already have to pay for someone else. What do you think your health insurance premiums are for? If you don't utilize as much value as you put in, the someone else is just using the money you're putting in.




True. That is the nature of ALL insurance. It is also my choice.
Quote:



So why not make those rules required for health insurance companies also? THe more people fuck themselves up, the more healthy people still have to pay.

Same principle




Dangerous people get kicked out all the time.




As a self-employed person with an incorporated business who has actually employed other via w2 (not 1099).. actual employess.. I've learned (at least in my state) that you cannot deny health insurance to employees who have gained their insurance through an employer. There IS NO SCREENING for insurance recipients who got their insurance though employment.

Seeing as how most Americans get their insurance through their employers, most Americans don't get kicked out of health insurance. If you get your insurance through an employer, you CANNOT be denied for preexisting conditions because you NEVER have to report them.

So again.. most Americans are STILL paying for assholes to do whatever they want. I really don' think this will be as different if you have gov't mandated health care. Of course... neither you nor I know will really know how much a new recipient (due to gov't mandated care) will actually cost a premium payer (or tax payer in this case) unless an extensive study is conducted.

I think Americans at LEAST deserve a study on whether or not universal health care is Economical. ***THIS*** would at least be some tax payer dollars put to good use. If it's found out that we WOULD benfit financially from Universal health care (UVC) then the study would be worth it. If UVC isn't worth it, at least we'll know for sure and have more firepower to shut up the commie welfare queens that think it's their right.


Remember... I'm not a hippie. I'm FOR UVC for economic reasons.... not hippie reasons.


Edited by BrAiN (01/23/08 10:35 PM)


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