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Invisiblevampirism
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Registered: 03/14/04
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Capitalism and "incentive"
    #3627845 - 01/14/05 12:37 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Some here would say that capitalism is a system which rewards the very hardest workers most. This is very misleading though- capitalism rewards those who are able to gain alot of capital, it primarily rewards businessmen and the like. What about the hardest working artist? You cannot "choose" to be an artist if you were born with the propensity to be one any more than you can choose not to eat.

Is there any system you can think of which would reward hard-work and ambition without heavy bias toward anything?


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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
Love is like a train...
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Re: Capitalism and "incentive" [Re: vampirism]
    #3627851 - 01/14/05 12:40 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The Rainbow family of Light.

And that, my friend....
is all.


--------------------
A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.


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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
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Re: Capitalism and "incentive" [Re: AbstractHarmonix]
    #3627864 - 01/14/05 12:47 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Some here would say that capitalism is a system which rewards the very hardest workers most.




anyone who said that would be wrong. capitalism rewards those who provide valuable goods or services to the market.


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
Love is like a train...
Female

Registered: 07/09/04
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Re: Capitalism and "incentive" [Re: Tao]
    #3627898 - 01/14/05 12:56 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The conception of what constitutes capitalism has changed significantly over time, as well as varying depending on the political perspective and analytical approach taken. Adam Smith focussed on the role of enlightened self-interest (the "invisible hand") and the role of specialisation in making capital accumulation efficient. Some proponents of capitalism (like Milton Friedman) emphasize the role of free markets, which, they claim, promote freedom and democracy. For many (like Immanuel Wallerstein), capitalism hinges on the elaboration of an economic system in which goods and services are traded in markets, and capital goods belong to non-state entities, onto a global scale. For others (like Karl Marx), it is defined by the creation of a labor market in which most people have to sell their labor-power in order to survive. As Marx argued (see also Hilaire Belloc), capitalism is also distinguished from other market economies with private ownership by the concentration of the means of production in the hands of a few


--------------------
A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.


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InvisiblePaou
Seeker

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 376
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Re: Capitalism and "incentive" [Re: vampirism]
    #3628333 - 01/14/05 02:22 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Capitalism rewards putting out a product or service that people want. This is known as supply and demand. The failure of socialism is that it tries to place an objective value on labor. But time has shown that supply and demand is the best system for determining value that has yet been tried.


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Capitalism and "incentive" [Re: vampirism]
    #3628618 - 01/14/05 03:32 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
Some here would say that capitalism is a system which rewards the very hardest workers most.



Not at all. Capitalism rewards people based on how well they meet the needs and wants of other people.

Quote:

This is very misleading though-



It isn't misleading. It is incorrect.

Quote:

What about the hardest working artist? You cannot "choose" to be an artist if you were born with the propensity to be one any more than you can choose not to eat.



You can be an artist and do other things as well to make money. If an artist makes a bunch of "art" that no one wants should they be required to pay the artist? If that were the case I would become an artist and just paint stupid shit all day and get paid for it.

Quote:

Is there any system you can think of which would reward hard-work and ambition without heavy bias toward anything?



No. And if there were it would fall apart in a day because there would be no reason to meet the needs and wants of others.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Capitalism and "incentive" [Re: z@z.com]
    #3628814 - 01/14/05 04:37 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

hm. Well then this bodes very poorly man...
people are incredibly stupid, why should their idiocy be satisfied?


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Capitalism and "incentive" [Re: vampirism]
    #3628821 - 01/14/05 04:39 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not sure what you are asking.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Capitalism and "incentive" [Re: vampirism]
    #3628843 - 01/14/05 04:44 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Is there any system you can think of which would reward hard-work and ambition without heavy bias toward anything?

there isn't one, because hard work and ambition do not necessarily create wealth (which is the "reward" we're talking about in this case). it's not a matter of politics, it's a fact of reality.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Capitalism and "incentive" [Re: ]
    #3629185 - 01/14/05 06:23 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I realize this, and if such a system were to exist, then it could not use wealth as a reward. However, what if it had honor as a separate reward system? The Japanese have an interesting system where honor is likely more important than capital.

z@z- sorry, i wrote all of this while I had a migraine. Basically, I'm asking why stupid desires should have a system where they can easily be attained- money should not be able to buy everything as it can today ( not an all-inclusive everything, but close to it ).


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Capitalism and "incentive" [Re: vampirism]
    #3629232 - 01/14/05 06:39 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Capitalism is a system in which those that can deceive others into buying useless crap prosper. So an artist that makes conveyor belt BS and markets it the right way can prosper. So can someone providing a much needed service, but so can anyone inventing a new 'need' for the masses.

Pros and cons right there.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
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Re: Capitalism and "incentive" [Re: vampirism]
    #3629298 - 01/14/05 07:02 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
[Email]z@z-[/Email] sorry, i wrote all of this while I had a migraine. Basically, I'm asking why stupid desires should have a system where they can easily be attained- money should not be able to buy everything as it can today ( not an all-inclusive everything, but close to it ).



Why shouldn't a person be able to buy what they want? Who decides what is and is not worth having? I don't think a TV is worth having so should I be able to stop you from getting one? Are you advocating a totalitarian state?


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Capitalism and "incentive" [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3629313 - 01/14/05 07:04 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Stone said:
Capitalism is a system in which those that can deceive others into buying useless crap prosper. So an artist that makes conveyor belt BS and markets it the right way can prosper. So can someone providing a much needed service, but so can anyone inventing a new 'need' for the masses.

Pros and cons right there.



I don't see the problem with making something and convincing people that it is a good thing to have. If person A convinces person B to buy a widget that person C considers useless crap who is harmed? Person A got what they wanted. Person B got what they wanted. Person C wasn't affected at all. What's the problem?


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Capitalism and "incentive" [Re: vampirism]
    #3629327 - 01/14/05 07:09 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The Japanese have an interesting system where honor is likely more important than capital.

the government, though it can redistribute material rewards, cannot provide citizens with personal satisfaction for their work. that must come either from within, or from genuine community appreciation. you can't fake it. a "great worker" award from the government wouldn't mean shit to most people.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Capitalism and "incentive" [Re: ]
    #3630598 - 01/15/05 12:28 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I guess I'm suggesting that politics should not be limited to government. A working social system would need to incorporate everything.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Capitalism and "incentive" [Re: AbstractHarmonix]
    #3631956 - 01/15/05 06:46 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

XOIIAresIIOX said:
The conception of what constitutes capitalism has changed significantly over time, as well as varying depending on the political perspective and analytical approach taken. Adam Smith focussed on the role of enlightened self-interest (the "invisible hand") and the role of specialisation in making capital accumulation efficient.



Quote:

For others (like Karl Marx), it is defined by the creation of a labor market in which most people have to sell their labor-power in order to survive. As Marx argued (see also Hilaire Belloc), capitalism is also distinguished from other market economies with private ownership by the concentration of the means of production in the hands of a few




i think that today just about everyone..even the capitalists themselves..would agree with the marxs' definition..above...similarly the notion of "socialism" has been altered (by the right) to include the "other market economies"..and thus falsely linking them to the failed soviet and chinese "socialist" states...

it is also worth pointing out that the eutopian societies of adam smith and karl marx were virtually identical...marx..however..was ignorant of the nature of power..while smith was ignorant of the nature of self interest.. and im just plain ignorant  :cool:


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Capitalism and "incentive" [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3632162 - 01/15/05 07:32 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Annapurna1 writes:

i think that today just about everyone..even the capitalists themselves..would agree with the marxs' definition..above...

Then you think wrong. Previous posters in the thread described it more accurately than Marx did. This business about people being "forced" to "sell" their labor in order to survive is just agit-prop. Human survival requires productive human effort. That is the law of nature. Always has been, always will be. The difference between Capitalism and Collectivism is seen in whose effort supports whose existence.

Under Capitalism, your effort benefits you. Under Collectivism your effort benefits not-you. No amount of redefining and massaging definitions alters that fact.


pinky


--------------------


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Capitalism and "incentive" [Re: Phred]
    #3632181 - 01/15/05 07:37 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Under Collectivism your effort benefits not-you.

Wouldn't your efforts benefit the group, you included?


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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Anonymous

Re: Capitalism and "incentive" [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3632324 - 01/15/05 08:13 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

i think that today just about everyone..even the capitalists themselves..would agree with the marxs' definition..above

marx defined capitalism as a situation where there is private property, private exchange, and private profit. it's an incomplete definition. this situation has existed for millenia, a lot longer than what we know as capitalism has existed.

it's not a definition of capitalism, it's just a description of the exact opposite of what he envisioned for society: no private property, no private exchange, no private profit.

smith was ignorant of the nature of self interest..

how so?


Edited by Anonymous (01/15/05 08:19 PM)


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InvisiblePaou
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Re: Capitalism and "incentive" [Re: ]
    #3632433 - 01/15/05 08:42 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

It should be noted that the term "capitalism" was invented by socialists to describe the system they were opposed to.


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