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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Some thoughts on.....
    #791409 - 08/01/02 08:58 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Disclaimer: By reading further, you agree not to give me unnecessary, bullshit replies (not that anyone here would...). You agree to not take any of this personally, as I am not aiming this at anyone in particular (Really I?m not). You agree not to be offended by any of these words as it is not my intention to offend.


Criticism?
It doesn?t have to be viewed as negative. Does it really matter if it?s sugar-coated or not? Why is it so deplorable to just drop the candy-shell and cut to the chase? Half the time is spent analyzing the intentions of the critic rather than their actual critique. This usually leads to a flame war (typically started by the party being critiqued even though it is presumed that they post their ideas FOR CRITIQUE- that?s what a discussion is and that?s the purpose of this forum).

Now I?m wondering how many people are going to jump all over me and try to analyze my intentions. I?ll make it easier on you: I?d like this forum to transcend all the namby-pamby-side-talk-battles and keep the discussions as pure as possible? it would make this forum more productive. Of course someone could always question the intentions behind that statement and so on ad infinitum. This type of bullshit is what I would expect from 1) less intelligent people, 2) those who subscribe to dogma, 3) close-minded people, and so on and so forth. I think most people here don?t fit easily into those categories. That being said, why is this intention-seeking-bullshit so commonplace here?


I really think it has to do with a primal fear that has been ingrained into the affected?s mind? every culture inundates its members with this fear in one way or another. Do you know what this fear is? I do. It forces one to take refuge in the arms of the familiar. It encourages us to seek safety, security, shelter from something. The something has no particular form. Hell, this fear may even be rooted in some sort of an instinct encoded in our genes, but I wouldn?t bet on that. I think most wild animals are familiar with this instinct. But the fact that I?ve observed many species of animals overcome this drive of sorts leads me to believe that it is not genetic and therefore must be primarily psychological in nature. Have you figured it out yet? Right on the tip of your mental tongue is it?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
Male User Gallery

Registered: 11/24/01
Posts: 10,211
Loc: Bloomington, IN
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
Re: Some thoughts on..... [Re: Sclorch]
    #791485 - 08/01/02 09:35 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The fear of the unknown?

I think we ALL have that fear at sometime or another, even the "skeptical" types, not just the "believers". Yes it's something that can be transcended, like the ego, but it likes to creep its way back in when your not paying attention.

Nice post though.. I agree that this forum can be made more productive.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
Re: Some thoughts on..... [Re: Sclorch]
    #791805 - 08/02/02 04:13 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

Half the time is spent analyzing the intentions of the critic rather than their actual critique.


Why shouldn't we analyze the critic? More often then not the 'critiques' around here are little more then rubuttles which point out some sort of error in a post, as opposed to an error behind the actual idea of the post. (like when people jumped all over swami's ass when he was talking about percentages of sins found between atheists and christians...people seemed more concerned with getting statistics to prove his point, and less so about the intent of his message) I think by trying to understand the motives behind these so called critiques (if that's how you choose to lable them) you can understand if what was being said was meant as constructive critism, or if it was just a way to make it seem like you don't know what you're talking about. Cause in my mind there is a difference between the two.

And if you want to lable me as being fearful for trying to anylize your message - then so be it. I certainly can't help it if you misinterpret what I'm trying to convey. I assure you though, I'm not trying to poke holes in what you said. I agree 100% that a lot of people in this world need to learn how to take critism without getting all butt-hurt about it. But I also think a lot of people need to learn how to be constructive about a person without getting nit-picky over simple stupid shit like generalizations. How many times have you seen someone here say something like "you can't judge a group like that, you need to look at each person as their own individual case" As far as I'm concerned something like this isn't constructive at all. It may be true, but it also veers the conversation away from the original point being made. Why must so many people here dwell on insignificant details? It's not like we're talking quantum physics or something. Most of what's being said in these discussions is a matter of opinion or assumption anyways. So why worry so much about whether or not someone is using the proper terminology or whatever? Learn to quit being so damn technical, and learn to be a bit more helpful.

BTW Sclorch - Most of what I said at the end there was geared towards everyone in general, even though it might seem like I was aiming at you specifically. So please don't think I'm bashing on you or something. I'm just venting my frustrations about how seldom anyone ever stops to observe the gastalt of a post.


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


Edited by Mystical_Craven (08/02/02 04:43 AM)


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Some thoughts on..... [Re: Sclorch]
    #791816 - 08/02/02 04:33 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

What a conundrum you are into!
Well it all beguines in stepping out of your shoes and getting into some one else's.
You have to remember that every one does not think, feel or see the world like you do.
After you understand that you will learn to have more tact in dealing with people.
Some people are very sensitive, and perceive intensions that you may not (whether real or not).
It is a very good exercise in self awareness to, before you answer some one, think what's your real intension, some times will be to communicate, some time will be to inflate your ego, or sometimes will have an emotional charge behind the words.
Many times this things are done subconsciously, but it comes out and some people feels it.
In the other hand, you cannot candy coat every thing and give in to the others person childish behavior.
It's reaching a middle term perhaps, and some basic etiquette and most of all leaving the ego behind.
All give you an example, and I am not saying that is your case: I there is a topic about aliens, crop circle forth dimension, or what ever you want to include in that, and you think is just plain crazy talk, but there is a lot of people into it, refrain your self to get in to the topic, ignore it, unless you have something to contribute to it, but if you go and post you guys are crazy, immediately you are putting your self above every one else, and trying to prove to your self that you are better (ego work at best).
Remember other people are different and you have to respect that, if you want to be respected.
I hope it made any sense to you.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Some thoughts on..... [Re: LOBO]
    #791832 - 08/02/02 05:02 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

...and most of all leaving the ego behind.

Remember other people are different and you have to respect that, if you want to be respected.

Respect is a need of the ego. Seems you are giving two opposing directives.




--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Some thoughts on..... [Re: Sclorch]
    #791845 - 08/02/02 05:30 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

First off, I don't like you borrowing my disclaimer idea without express written permssion (my lawyer made me say that!)...

Criticism; It doesn't have to be viewed as negative.
For most it does because the ego identifies its ideas with itself, not recognizing that the two are distant and distinct.

Does it really matter if it's sugar-coated or not? Why is it so deplorable to just drop the candy-shell and cut to the chase?
People who take offense will take offense usually no matter how it is presented because the idea that someone would have the audacity to challenge their ideas is just too much.

The ones who really want it candy-coated are the sensitive spectators trying to be diplomatic and to please everyone.

A weak, ill-thought idea needs, yeah, it is is destined to be trashed. This is evolution-in-action. The lion must cull the herd.

Half the time is spent analyzing the intentions of the critic rather than their actual critique.
Of course! This is a standard delaying/avoidance technique that prevents the poster from having to actually evaluate your reply.

This usually leads to a flame war (typically started by the party being critiqued even though it is presumed that they post their ideas FOR CRITIQUE- thats what a discussion is and thats the purpose of this forum).
The ego of the poster feels threatened, not understanding that ideas are borrowed and not a part of the self, and so blindly lash out at anything that might challenge their comfortable world view.

Now I'm wondering how many people are going to jump all over me and try to analyze my intentions.
Just why did you post this? Sounds like you are trying to stir the pot in your usual schlorch-like fashion...

I'll make it easier on you: I'd like this forum to transcend all the namby-pamby-side-talk-battles and keep the discussions as pure as possible;
Who gives a damn about what you want. Let's talk about MY desires...

Do you know what this fear is?
It is fairly simple. People usually get angriest when you get closest to the truth (which is why sugar-coating doesn't work). If another accepts new data and analysis that counters their previous stance, then they will have to admit to themselves that they previously made an erroneous assumption or were duped and have been wrong for some time. The ego is much more interested in being right than the truth and so will do anything to keep the illusion alive. The longer and deeper a false belief has been held, the harder it is to let go.

"It may be shit, but it is MY shit!"


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (08/02/02 07:40 AM)


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Some thoughts on..... [Re: Sclorch]
    #791850 - 08/02/02 05:38 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

That being said, why is this intention-seeking-bullshit so commonplace here?

The tone of the post? when the tone of an author?s post is acerbic, cynical, impatient, and sarcastic, I can?t help but wonder about the author?s intentions. Why is any of this extra crap necessary?! Is this the most effective way to get you point across to everyone? Of course not. And if your real interest is to understand some ?real state of affairs,? you would leave this crap out. No, this author is likely more interested in arousing the emotion in others who are like-minded- you?ll receive praise for your rally. And of course you?ll offend those who are opposed- you?ll probably get equally derisive responses from these people and then you?ll wonder ?why everyone is getting so emotional or upset?? You?re also probably interested in portraying yourself as a deep, frustrated, misunderstood-by-the-masses intellectual who is just plain sick of all of the idiocy. Such a tone tells me that the author is not really interested in finding any "truth," but instead, is looking for an opporutunity to stroke his ego.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Some thoughts on..... [Re: Swami]
    #791934 - 08/02/02 06:59 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The lion must cull the herd.

Oh jesus christ...

...hey don't tell us..you think you're the lion right?



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Some thoughts on..... [Re: Swami]
    #791937 - 08/02/02 07:01 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

It is fairly simple. People usually get angriest when you get closest to the truth

No, I think people usually get angriest when you constantly ruin threads with ill thought out ignorant rubbish.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Some thoughts on..... [Re: Swami]
    #791993 - 08/02/02 07:49 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The ones who really want it candy-coated are the sensitive spectators trying to be diplomatic and to please everyone.


I don?t think anybody is asking for claims to be ?candy-coated,? just not stated in such a way that implies disagreement means the reader is a brainwashed idiot. If the impact of stomping and shitting on somebody?s core value system (whatever it may be) doesn?t phase you, then another relevant effect you might consider is that by arousing emotion in the dissenters, you set up a self-fulfilling prophecy, ?proving? that these people are not capable of logical debate.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Some thoughts on..... [Re: buttonion]
    #792034 - 08/02/02 08:13 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I don’t think anybody is asking for claims to be “candy-coated,” just not stated in such a way that implies disagreement means the reader is a brainwashed idiot.
When I discovered at age 7 that there was no Santa Claus, I was devastated. (A core belief was shattered.) I felt grief and pain despite my parents attempts to try to paint a rosy picture about the cultural deceit.

That's what I mean when I say candy-coating is meaningless.

Let's say I am a police officer and have to inform you that your girlfriend was just killed in a horrible accident. Do you really think I can lessen the blow by how I present the news?

If the impact of stomping and shitting on somebody’s core value system (whatever it may be) doesn’t phase you,
Is showing a glaring inconsitency or contradiction "shitting on somebody’s core value system"?

then another relevant effect you might consider is that by arousing emotion in the dissenters,
People arouse their emotions themselves. This is a basic truth and can be easily demonstrated. Call 100 heterosexual men a "fag" and you will get responses from being ignored, to laughter, to incredulity to violent rage. Now the statement was a catalyst, but the response was totally up to the listener and not the speaker.

you set up a self-fulfilling prophecy, “proving” that these people are not capable of logical debate.
Not at all. Some people are incapable of logical debate because they have not properly learned to use logic. Their whole life has been one knee-jerk reaction after another and it has become an accepted habit.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Some thoughts on..... [Re: Swami]
    #792040 - 08/02/02 08:16 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

Respect is a need of the ego. Seems you are giving two opposing directives.





First I don't give directives just my humble opinion, second ego is a big part of our humanity for better or worse, most of us have a very difficult time controlling it, so some form of deterrence is necessary so we can all get along (if you look at the world we live in, it is much need it)
I do seek respect not just to inflate my ego but also to have some basic freedoms, if my life style were to be respected I woulden't have to hide every time I wanted to smoke a joint for example.
But again they are people out that they think that there way to see the world is the only one and force it upon me, I am not asking them to change to my perspective only to respect my view and let me live.


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Anonymous

Re: Some thoughts on..... [Re: Sclorch]
    #792042 - 08/02/02 08:18 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Swami has already answered this so I don't need to repeat what he said.

However, Buttonion also made some interesting comments. I can see how the posts made by you, Swami, and Evolving can upset others because of the cold logic that is used. I try to remember when I am answering a post that another person is on the receiving end. A real person that is trying to figure this existence they didn't ask for and now may not even want. Each one of us has been as confused as the other about certain thigs at certain times in our lives.

While logic is a comfort to me in my neverending struggle for truth it is not a comfort to others to be shown that they are wrong and perhaps misguided. They may be deep in the ego. If they are it may not be our place to show them the "error of their ways". In fact, to do so may indicate that it is we who are the insecure ones.

People are people. In other words, you cannot change their nature and as long as this forum exists the only way we can elevate the quality of this forum is to alter our posts and comments.

All of us could do better.

Cheers,


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Some thoughts on..... [Re: LOBO]
    #792048 - 08/02/02 08:20 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I do seek respect not just to inflate my ego but also to have some basic freedoms...

That is fine, but you are going off on a tangent. No one here is restricting your freedom by exchanging words, so your point doesn't apply.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Some thoughts on..... [Re: ]
    #792059 - 08/02/02 08:29 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

While logic is a comfort to me in my neverending struggle for truth it is not a comfort to others to be shown that they are wrong and perhaps misguided. They may be deep in the ego. If they are it may not be our place to show them the "error of their ways".

Which would be fine if this was the "Nurturing and Mutual Support" board, but it isn't. Cold logic is very much a part of philosophical discussion. Is is really the poster's responsibility to try to figure out the possible emotional responses of a thousand invisible strangers?

Can I not just say aliens crashing at Roswell is bogus because of A, B and C? Must I couch that in flowery terms with disclaimers and apologies?





--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Some thoughts on..... [Re: Swami]
    #792086 - 08/02/02 08:50 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

We are not responsible for the perception that anyone has whether it is a perception of something we said or lights in the sky. However, why do you post rebuttals in the first place? I am not looking for an answer but just hinting that you should introspect on it. You give criticism where none is asked for. I, embrace your rebuttals of anything I offer but very few do that. This is not to say that I do not offer rebuttals that are unasked for as well. We both know I do. And yet, for the most part, people respond to me differently. Why do you think that is?

Aslo, your answer does seem to indicate the fallacy of the excluded middle. Your examples are extreme.

I'm sorry to be so coarse. Really, I am.

Cheers,


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Some thoughts on..... [Re: Swami]
    #792217 - 08/02/02 10:10 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

That is fine, but you are going off on a tangent. No one here is restricting your freedom by exchanging words, so your point doesn't apply.



Senior Swami you choose not to use your so cherish Logic when is no convenient to you.
It make all the point, to have respect for our fellow human is in the small and big things, you can not choose I am going to respect his life style but I can trash his opinions.
You are very funny, you pick on other people writing skills and justify it as a lack of self-awareness, can you honestly tell me that you are trying to wake them up or put them down? Self-awareness is also knowing the intension or your words or actions and how they are going to affect some one else.
Look no further you stated above that my point does not apply here? Wow I did not know some one appointed you judge of what points apply or don't, isn't that a little egocentric from your part?
Swami I respect your opinions, but that does not mean I agree with every thing you say.



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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Some thoughts on..... [Re: ]
    #792246 - 08/02/02 10:24 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

While logic is a comfort to me in my never-ending struggle for truth it is not a comfort to others to be shown that they are wrong and perhaps misguided. They may be deep in the ego. If they are it may not be our place to show them the "error of their ways". In fact, to do so may indicate that it is we who are the insecure ones.




You reflect my feelings exactly Mr. Mushrooms, and if I may add that the legend says that was due to pride that an angel fell from heaven.
A true seeker of truth above any thing else is humble because he knows he knows nothing.


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Some thoughts on..... [Re: Swami]
    #792269 - 08/02/02 10:36 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

Which would be fine if this was the "Nurturing and Mutual Support" board, but it isn't. Cold logic is very much a part of philosophical discussion. Is is really the poster's responsibility to try to figure out the possible emotional responses of a thousand invisible strangers?




Swami why are you trying to define what this board is or is not, is your own projection now of how things should be or not, it could very well be for some one supporting, it could be even life changing, like your story in the navy, some one could read that and wake up and change there life.
Words are powerful stuff.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Some thoughts on..... [Re: Swami]
    #792411 - 08/02/02 11:56 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Which would be fine if this was the "Nurturing and Mutual Support" board, but it isn't. Cold logic is very much a part of philosophical discussion.

But perhaps not so much part of spirituality discussion. The board is called "SPIRITUALITY and philosophy" remember. I think nurturing and mutual support can play a major part in spirituality. Once again, get your basic facts straight before you attempt to introduce "logic". Logic based on wildly innacurate facts is completly worthless.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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