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Anonymous

Re: Thoughts on Magick... [Re: CACA]
    #424234 - 10/13/01 03:02 PM (23 years, 4 months ago)

On a lighter note...
This thread nicely shows the evolution of my avatar.

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Offlineiudexk
member
Registered: 08/18/01
Posts: 107
Loc: UK
Last seen: 23 years, 1 month
Re: Thoughts on Magick... [Re: CACA]
    #424345 - 10/13/01 04:59 PM (23 years, 4 months ago)

what the person said is irrelevant. they have books, too.
The religion of the person who originally said that quotation does not use books.

God is who laid down the tracks for the winds. why would you worship something that was made FOR you?
You are assuming that the wind was made for you?



--------------------
http://www.magickherbs.co.uk/

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Offlineone_smooth_bitch
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Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 303
Loc: the boonies
Last seen: 23 years, 7 days
Re: Thoughts on Magick... [Re: CACA]
    #424351 - 10/13/01 05:03 PM (23 years, 4 months ago)

I still say a prayer and a spell are the same thing in the end result.
OSB


--------------------
The next time you want pussy, go look in the mirror baby...here kitty kitty kitty.....

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Anonymous

Re: Thoughts on Magick... [Re: one_smooth_bitch]
    #424393 - 10/13/01 05:50 PM (23 years, 4 months ago)

Exactly... consentration of the energy of your will.

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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,491
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 1 month, 14 days
Re: Thoughts on Magick... [Re: Anonymous]
    #424532 - 10/13/01 09:21 PM (23 years, 4 months ago)

and once again we come to the interface of "not my will but thy will be done" and "harm none and do as thou wilt"
and the plot thickens...
lawrence le shan teaches healing (among other things...) and he states categorically that working healings are done "through me" rather than "by me"
next i suppose we can work on : just who is this "me" person, anyway?
mmmmmm, maybe another time...
peace
shanti om
blessed be
namaste
salaam


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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OfflineAmoeba665
strange
Registered: 05/23/00
Posts: 275
Loc: a hidden microutopia at t...
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Thoughts on Magick... [Re: gnrm23]
    #424844 - 10/14/01 04:41 AM (23 years, 4 months ago)

so what kind of results do magickians really get? can they create physical results, like break things or move things? or is it limited to manipulating the energies within a situation or person or environment? (is that right?) and if thats the case do you confidently feel that it was your magick and not just coincidence or the excercising of your will in the real world?


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---

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Anonymous

Re: Thoughts on Magick... [Re: Amoeba665]
    #424847 - 10/14/01 04:47 AM (23 years, 4 months ago)

thy will, friend... thy will. please do not fall into my confusion.

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InvisibleMeltingPenguin
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2,138
Loc: new england
Re: Thoughts on Magick... [Re: Amoeba665]
    #424848 - 10/14/01 04:48 AM (23 years, 4 months ago)

I knew a sharlin monk "i big into martial arts" that could cause a wet towel to steem dry in about two minuets by placeing it on his shirtless back. I also saw him break a sharpened oat Boe staff with his eye lid, no shit. It was right in front of me. His eye got all red and puff, and in like ten seconds it was totally healed.

Its all about Chi. The power source of your third charkra.


--------------------
Growing anything is good for the soul

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OfflineDankVudu
member
Registered: 06/05/01
Posts: 127
Last seen: 23 years, 1 month
Re: Thoughts on Magick... [Re: Amoeba665]
    #424856 - 10/14/01 06:13 AM (23 years, 4 months ago)

>so what kind of results do magickians really get? can they create physical results, like break things or move things?

Here's a good way to find out if you are really interested:

Take a paper plate and push a thumb tack through it in the center, so that the sharp part is sticking up through the center. Next, fold a small square peice of paper in half, then fold it in half again. You should now have a folded up square in the shape of a square. Unfold and it should be creased to a point in the middle of the original square. Set the point on top of the tack(if it is big enough to hit the plate, cut out a smaller square and fold again). Place a glass over the tack, making sure it is not actually touching the paper. Place your hands close to the sides of the glass, and concentrate on moving the paper in a clockwise motion. Feel the energy flowing from your hands around the paper. See the energy do what you want it to do. Depending on how fast you learn, this could happen on the first try, or it could take weeks of practice. I compare learning to manipulate energy to learning to use a muscle. Think about how you learned to walk; it didn't just happen the first day you saw someone else do it.

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Offlinegnrm23
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Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,491
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 1 month, 14 days
Re: Thoughts on Magick... [Re: Amoeba665]
    #425030 - 10/14/01 11:12 AM (23 years, 4 months ago)

siddhis apparently do exist...
whether or or not they are "useful" is another story...
so...
can spiritual energy be generated?
can this energy be transmitted or stored?
can it have an effect on the physical world?
mmmmm....
kay...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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OfflineNextGenHippie
enthusiast
Registered: 03/30/01
Posts: 311
Loc: MD, USA
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Re: Thoughts on Magick... [Re: gnrm23]
    #425533 - 10/14/01 07:06 PM (23 years, 4 months ago)

Well... I don't know a lot about most relidgions, but if your spiritual energy is like Tao in it's regeneration, then the Tao Te Ching says on this subject:
____________
It is the nature of the Tao,
that even though used continuously,
it is replenished naturally,
never being emptied,
and never being over-filled,
as is a goblet
which spills its contents
upon the ground.
___________
There are many differing views on spiritual energy, from exercising your inner will to do something, to praying to a divine God to part the Jordan for you. But I think the Tao Te Ching defines it adequetly for most.


--------------------
[pot]Think left and think right[pot]
[pot]and think low and think high[pot]
[pot]Oh, the thinks you can think up if only you try[pot]
-Dr. Seuss

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Offlinejonnyshaggs420
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/08/00
Posts: 1,965
Loc: Mid-West
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Re: Thoughts on Magick... [Re: Anonymous]
    #425864 - 10/14/01 11:49 PM (23 years, 4 months ago)

magick is just the name for what happens when you realise that you and the universe are one and the same.


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Vote Jonnyshaggs in the next election for GOD...Its the responsible choice

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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Thoughts on Magick... [Re: jonnyshaggs420]
    #426090 - 10/15/01 06:47 AM (23 years, 4 months ago)

That's IT! (From Alan Watts THE BOOK: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are Chapter Six: IT, p.139)


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[red]0011 0001 0010 1111 0011 0000[/red]

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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Thoughts on Magick... [Re: Anonymous]
    #426146 - 10/15/01 08:40 AM (23 years, 4 months ago)

Yeeah, I like the evolution of your avatar. It initiated my avatar to evolve two...


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[red]0011 0001 0010 1111 0011 0000[/red]

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Offlinethe MidWay
member
Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 45
Loc: earth
Last seen: 22 years, 5 months
Re: Thoughts on Magick... [Re: oneoverzero]
    #432079 - 10/21/01 04:45 AM (23 years, 3 months ago)

Aleister Crowley adopted the medieval spelling of magic with a "k" to differentiate the psycho-spiritual science from stage magic. The Magi of the Rosicrux and the Golden Dawn, as well as countless theurgists before them, spelled magic without the "k." Like Regardie, we see no reason to surrender the word "magic" to the arena of the stage magician.

It will be obvious, then, that by magic we are not considering a theatrical craft or jugglery--and certainly not that mediaeval superstition which was the child of ignorance begotten by fear and terror. These definitions should be expunged from our thinking. For centuries magic has been quite erroneously associated with such pathologies as sourcery and demonolatry due to the duplicity of charlatans and the reticence of its own so-called authorities. Even today, the custodians of this knowledge, harassed by personal problems and their own power complex are still adamant in their refusal to ciculate a more accurate description of magic. Possibly even they have lost all understanding of its principles.

The production of genius--more specifically a religious and mystical type of genius is ever the goal of magic.

Ceremonial magic enables HUman to become an engine capable of harnessing and directing the enormous power that lies within. A multitude of basic principles are utilized to this end...

An understanding and application of magic can telescope the time required for man to acquire the realization of his own divinity. Then, once he has become aware of the existance of his Self (higher self, true self, Atman, guardian angel, Yechida, spirit guide, Urantian thought adjuster, etc.) and works in cooperation rather than oppostion to it, once he looks to it for guidance and direction, thenceforth regarding his ego as a tool, sharpened and polished to be employed now to fufill the divine plan, rather than in the indulgence of his own petty purposes-then will his way become easier...

"The Middle Pillar~The Balance Between Mind and Magic" by Israel Regardie 1938

"Magic is the art of causing transformation of the manifest (explicate) universe through the universal medium of the Unmanifest (implicate)." ~Don Tyson "New Millenum Magic" 1988

~~~~~Every little thing is Magic... every little thing~~~~~


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OfflineXAZIA
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Registered: 08/22/01
Posts: 678
Loc: oklahoma
Last seen: 22 years, 5 months
Re: Thoughts on Magick... [Re: Anonymous]
    #455816 - 11/12/01 09:06 AM (23 years, 3 months ago)

hello, i would just like to put in my two cents. i would like to point out that i disagree with osb one the note that " not just anyone can do it". OH CONTRARE. this is the fundamental motivating force of wicca. we all embody the power to call upon the forces from which we were created. that is the beauty of wicca. unlike christianity which states that not all can harness the power of god. that god speaks to a chosen few who are callen (preachers and preists) and then we must rely upon them to interpret this message from god for us. the god and goddess created us all and we all have the ability to tap into the power that they are because we are that same power or life force. and on a second note i don't agree with the statement made that "there is white magik, black magik and all shades in between" there is no grey area where magik is concerned. if it harms ANYONE or ANYTHING then it is black magik (this includes yourself). even when you perform a love spell for someone to fall in love with you, this is considered black magik. you are calling on forces to manipulate another persons desires. i'm sorry but magik is either black or white there is no grey area.
lol
blessed be!


--------------------
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds."

Bob Marley

Remember, EGOISM is the beginning, the source, and the root of EVIL!

http://www.fanaticus.com/pf-tek.htm
http://www.mycotopia.net/teks/hongus.html

Edited by XAZIA (11/12/01 09:27 AM)

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Offlineone_smooth_bitch
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Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 303
Loc: the boonies
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Re: Thoughts on Magick... [Re: XAZIA]
    #455834 - 11/12/01 09:40 AM (23 years, 3 months ago)

I feel its not something anyone can just do. there are alot of factors and preparation, practice and sheer determination that make spells "work"

Is that what you are referring to? I was mearly stating that you cant pick up a book on spells and actually think that its going to work with out knowledge of what is involved. Yeah, anyone can embrace Wicca and its fundamentals as well as any other relgion, I hope that you didn't get the idea from that original post that I was saying not every one can be Wiccan...because that is not the point I was trying to make.
B*B!!!!
OSB


--------------------
The next time you want pussy, go look in the mirror baby...here kitty kitty kitty.....

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InvisibleIshmael
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Registered: 10/28/99
Posts: 224
Re: Thoughts on Magick... [Re: the MidWay]
    #455960 - 11/12/01 12:22 PM (23 years, 3 months ago)

Magick is the act of orienting your life towards a specific desired goal. The act of ritual can and does engrain into the mind the 'purpose of the goal' so that the ego goes about producing the desired effect. The act of Magick is the act of turning your /life/ into prayer, where every footstep and breath is aligned with a desired outcome. The act of utilizing ritual is to communicate with the depths of the mind that are obscured and hidden behind ego by evoking /belief/ (in the act of ritual and the focus of the ritual, wether it be divine, planar or mental). It is important to acknowledge that prayer and ritual are the same thing. The Judeo-Christian idea of prayer is surrounded by as many rituals as the Wiccan idea of it: Kneel, press your hands together, bow your head, preferably all while in some divine place or temple. Most judeo-christians cannot see the ritual because the whole process has become automatic, it has become a singular act rather than a series of parts. This isn't 'better', it is just what occurs when you grew up with the rituals from birth - you create a mental shortcut like a program that contains all of the processes.

As to if magick controls energies or not...I have to ask...what is 'Energy'? No one can define what energy is (the question even stumped Stephen Hawking). Identifying the divine as a source of boundless 'energy' it is the same as identifying the sky and heaven as filled and existing within and unidentifiable 'Ether'. The concept of mystical energy is an artifact of inadequate cognition of the /processes/ of the world - which makes it exceedingly hard to elaborate upon verbally. How do you explain to someone what energy is? "Energy is just...well...you know...Energy!"

I came to the conclusion not long ago that perhaps it would be less advisable to identify 'energy' as the immutable substance of mysticism, and instead refer to it as "process". Why process? Process is the action of change and transference within the realm of time. Process is a better unifying principal than the vauge notion of energy because it is not some /element/ of a material occurence, like an electron is the material element of the energy-form of electricity. Instead, process is the description of all that is occuring within a system at once - all rather than parts. That to me is important: focusing upon the whole rather than exclusively upon the pieces.

Magick would thusly be the action of altering the flow of process that is occuring within all things in order to bring about a desired result. To give a better idea of what I mean by that, I'll utilize some chaos mathematics.

Chaos math identifies that every occurence within the world (and indeed the universe) is dependent upon every other occurence which /ever/ occured. The moment of now is the build up of every happening /everywhere/ within the universe from the begining of /time/. To illustrate this, chaos mathematicians created the mental experiment of the 'butterfly effect': A butterfly flaps its wings, which stirs up dust, which causes a passing bird to sneeze which causes a herd of water buffalo to stampeed which causes more dust to rise into the atmosphere which causes water vapor to condense into clouds and causes rain in New York city rather than sunshine. That is Chaos. There is no way that a computer model could predict the result for it would have to have every factor /everywhere/ within its matrix running in real time to do so. Chaos is the idea of mathematical unpredictability. Chaos is not the idea that everything is essentially 'random' (as I stated a long time ago, there is no random, just infinite degrees of order) chaos is /Karma/...which is the idea of infinite cause and effect.

So if a butterfly can flap its wings and cause rain instead of sunshine, why can't a human being sitting 'foolishly' in a circle chanting /for/ rain have the same effect? Well, if a human being could link themselves in the /right/ way into the /process/ of chaos (infinite cause & effect), they /could/ produce rain instead of sunshine. Perhaps all it would take is chanting the right words...scaring up the right butterfly.

I sat down an thought about identifying the material world in terms of 'process' rather than 'matter' and 'energy' and the depth which you can take the model was mind boggling. What we define as matter is slow process. What we define as energy is quick process. Try to concieve of that, and then try to concieve of all Life as a form of 'process' as well (think: condensed amalgamated process).

Ish

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OfflineTimeleech
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Re: Thoughts on Magick... [Re: Ishmael]
    #455988 - 11/12/01 12:49 PM (23 years, 3 months ago)

Process or change. All these words, like energy and vibrations. It's the old game of putting the unspeakable into words. Nevertheless in my opinion "process" or "change" does it nicely.
Now we just need to know a few things in order to be set. Like what is doing the processing? Or what changes? And into what does it change?

I find it strange that we humans are able to shed so many words on this thing, to the extent that everything seems to revolve around it, or our understanding of it. And that is exactly what it is.
We are eyes turned inwards.

As I sit here I am left with an urge to express myself about to many matters, so I will go home soon and consult the oracle of Salvia instead, to shed some non-darkness upon the matter (which is energy, which is vibration, which is a process, which changes WHAT?)


--------------------
--
Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org

Edited by Timeleech (11/12/01 12:50 PM)

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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
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Registered: 07/15/01
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Re: Thoughts on Magick... [Re: Ishmael]
    #456135 - 11/12/01 03:26 PM (23 years, 3 months ago)

Timeleech said:
In reply to:

If anybody has read any of the discworld books by Terry Pratchett about the Witches in Lancre they should be familiar with the fact that words can be magic. Completely normal words. I actually believe that, you just look at what is accomplished with words that goes beyond normal communication. If you say the rights things you can get people to believe/do things. And I'm not talking about simply convincing people to do something. It's very hard to explain, and I'm just gonna create more confusion than I already have by trying more...




Tis true, I have some experience with 'words', but not quite sure if I could call it magic.. More or less a chant I call it.. :)

DankVudu said:
In reply to:

Take a paper plate and push a thumb tack through it in the center, so that the sharp part is sticking up through the center. Next, fold a small square peice of paper in half, then fold it in half again. You should now have a folded up square in the shape of a square. Unfold and it should be creased to a point in the middle of the original square. Set the point on top of the tack(if it is big enough to hit the plate, cut out a smaller square and fold again). Place a glass over the tack, making sure it is not actually touching the paper. Place your hands close to the sides of the glass, and concentrate on moving the paper in a clockwise motion. Feel the energy flowing from your hands around the paper. See the energy do what you want it to do. Depending on how fast you learn, this could happen on the first try, or it could take weeks of practice. I compare learning to manipulate energy to learning to use a muscle. Think about how you learned to walk; it didn't just happen the first day you saw someone else do it.




Hmmm.. sounds like an article from Romero Cunha (hermetic magic).


Midway said:
In reply to:

It will be obvious, then, that by magic we are not considering a theatrical craft or jugglery--and certainly not that mediaeval superstition which was the child of ignorance begotten by fear and terror. These definitions should be expunged from our thinking. For centuries magic has been quite erroneously associated with such pathologies as sourcery and demonolatry due to the duplicity of charlatans and the reticence of its own so-called authorities. Even today, the custodians of this knowledge, harassed by personal problems and their own power complex are still adamant in their refusal to ciculate a more accurate description of magic. Possibly even they have lost all understanding of its principles.




What's wrong with sorcery? I have briefly come in contact with a young practitioner (on the Net) who's pure goal is the relinquishment of needs in rituals, materials, somatics, semantics, and what not. The only concrete element used is a sigil - a receptable to store (chaos) magic. He practices progressive silence in sorcery.

In reply to:

"Magic is the art of causing transformation of the manifest (explicate) universe through the universal medium of the Unmanifest (implicate)." ~Don Tyson "New Millenum Magic" 1988




Very holographic (Bohm's Implicate and Explicate Orders).


Ishmael said:
In reply to:

Magick is the act of orienting your life towards a specific desired goal. The act of ritual can and does engrain into the mind the 'purpose of the goal' so that the ego goes about producing the desired effect. The act of Magick is the act of turning your /life/ into prayer, where every footstep and breath is aligned with a desired outcome. The act of utilizing ritual is to communicate with the depths of the mind that are obscured and hidden behind ego by evoking /belief/ (in the act of ritual and the focus of the ritual, wether it be divine, planar or mental). It is important to acknowledge that prayer and ritual are the same thing. The Judeo-Christian idea of prayer is surrounded by as many rituals as the Wiccan idea of it: Kneel, press your hands together, bow your head, preferably all while in some divine place or temple. Most judeo-christians cannot see the ritual because the whole process has become automatic, it has become a singular act rather than a series of parts. This isn't 'better', it is just what occurs when you grew up with the rituals from birth - you create a mental shortcut like a program that contains all of the processes.




Well, it's not fair to compare a judeo-christian to a wiccan (or any other magery or socery). It is never the same because the level of complexity of each one's (ah) rituals are discretely different. For instance, a prayer is harmless in all cases but in magery, a slight mistake could be disastrous. Prayer is simple potential manifestation (ie: wishing for happiness), magery is a complex potential (ie: exorcism). Prayer is an inward-turning reflection, magery is an outward-turning =application=.

It is also not fair to judge the mind of practitioner when you think he/she creates mental shortcuts on the basis of ego dominance. Magery is not exactly trendy, it literally defies the orthodoxy of modern-based societies (ego-based). People who follow this kind of path will be tested just like any buddhist will be. The path to Enligthenment is many..

...But even the Enlightened can be deluded.

...You can only judge them when you are also a practitioner.

BTW - your Chaos example, a bird can sneeze??? o.O


In reply to:

I sat down an thought about identifying the material world in terms of 'process' rather than 'matter' and 'energy' and the depth which you can take the model was mind boggling. What we define as matter is slow process. What we define as energy is quick process. Try to concieve of that, and then try to concieve of all Life as a form of 'process' as well (think: condensed amalgamated process).




process -> matter -> vibration (energy) = transpersonal..


KtP

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