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 JackthaTripper
MSME!
 
Registered: 01/29/07
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 Seeking Answers 
#6968955 - 05/26/07 10:23 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I need some opinions and ideas to help resolve an internal struggle that's been dwelling inside for a few years.
At one point I was doubtful that God existed, I had come to believe that religion was a ploy to control the masses, and that everything could be explained rationally and with science.
Over the years (in part with the help of psychedelics) I have come to the conclusion that there has got to be something tending the light at the end of the tunnel. All of this can't be chance, some random anomaly, a phenomena that has no explanation. There is something instead of nothing because there is a higher power to create that something. Life is tended by a force, knowledge was born and has multiplied exponentially.
There are some problems I see, however. If 'God' created this system for life why was it set up to be so violent (I'm not talking about human nature, yet)? The animal kingdom is a system that requires life to feed on other life in a constant circle of death. Every minute is spent searching for food and trying not to become food. Plus if these animals have no souls all their suffering is in vein, right?. It seems so cruel and arbitrary. Then there is us, humans. Horrible atrocities have been justified by religion. Also, if a child is born in the jungle of Africa and has not been 'taught' the word of 'God', grows up not wanting to harm others, lives a good life, and then has to suffer eternally for not knowing 'God'. These types of situations do not make sense for a loving 'God'. What makes this child less worthy of having a good chance of experiencing salvation then one born to a family who knows the way of 'God'? Not to mention nearly every religion says that the other religions are going to some version of 'hell' for not believing the right religion. How are we suppose to know which one is the 'true' religion? Are they really all paths to 'God'?
So many unanswered questions... I know this all can't be for nothing... Any Ideas?
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 Come on breakthrough with me...such wonders terrify the soul...it's real no need to question...knowledge infiltrates the host
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 Grok
Has Been a Bad Boy
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My advice would be to not let religion influence your views on God at all. Be your own source of knowledge on the divine. Religion is a plot IMO. I came from a similar place, I rejected the notion of God and especially religion for a great deal of my life, felt everything could be explained 'rationally' or something like that, but kept an open mind and eventually found what I wanted to know (I also struggled with why the world could be so fucked up but I really don't think it is now). I am sure there is a God, that God does not exist in seperation from anything, and is much more fantastic than religion has any inkling of.
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Entropy is increasing.
To send me a PM, go to my journal
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adrug
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
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I'll give you the default answer of the believer:
"God works in mysterious ways."
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JackthaTripper
MSME!
Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 2,494
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Re: Seeking Answers [Re: Grok]
#6969037 - 05/26/07 10:57 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
cilosyb said:
My advice would be to not let religion influence your views on God at all. Be your own source of knowledge on the divine [...] I am sure there is a God, that God does not exist in seperation from anything, and is much more fantastic than religion has any inkling of.
So to you religion was invented by man to control?
Or is it the Word of God and has been corrupted by man?
If religious organizations are not my source for information about God's will then how do I know his accordance?
I try to pray everyday but have yet to hear a voice telling me what to do, so aside form asking for guidance how would I know what is pious?
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Come on breakthrough with me...such wonders terrify the soul...it's real no need to question...knowledge infiltrates the host
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
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Loc:
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Forget about all that man, smoke a bowl and enjoy a good sandwich it the park. Thats what life is all about. What else is really all that important?
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AroundtheSon
Learning to See
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4,427
Loc: Midwest.
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We all struggle with these types of questions, or at least have at one point.
I believe, like the Bible says, that we are the temple of God. Thus, we have a direct link up to the Father, and really don't need religion per se to direct us. If we follow our own hearts, things will turn out okay.
I know that doesn't provide any peace really, even knowing the Truth doesn't change the struggle on a daily level. Having said that, life is what it is, life. It's good, bad, and ugly, but it is what it is. Try to do your best - and enjoy all our days under the sun.
I think Solomon put it best in Ecclesiastes (Bible) - man is just like the animals, all pass away. But eat, drink, find a woman/man, and enjoy your days under the sun. It is a passing glimpse, dust in the wind, meaningless - so just Smile, and enjoy the ride. It will be over before you know it, and then you won't have anything to think about, you will be nothing.
I realize it's a heavy burden, but He loves us, and he's willing to help guide you, through your heart, if you so wish. You can also go your own route (I realize this is somewhat of a paradox - as you are the temple, but I believe in separation between God and I - as it makes the suffering more bearable).
Anywho, believe it if you need it, leave it if you dare.
I realize this post if better suited for Religion and Mysticism, but flame away, bitches. 
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jonathanseagull
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Re: Seeking Answers [Re: blewmeanie]
#6969087 - 05/26/07 11:20 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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From reading your post, it seems that you hold onto a Christian notion of God. I think that you could benefit from losing that idea, and formulating your own idea. Also though, a god defined is a god confined. For instance though, your idea of a a child in Africa living a good life then suffering all eternity... your logic already tells you that this is wrong, but doctrine tells you it's right. I think I'll stick by logic on this one. The idea of Hell falls under the tactic of "F.U.D." It's something businesses use to create Fear, Uncertainty, and Death about another businesses product. Religions play that game too.
Just keep thinking about it. If something doesn't make sense, then there are probably two options. 1) You don't have all the info you need, or the capacity to understand... or 2) It just doesn't make sense or follow logic. I'm sure you can figure out which is which with each dilemma in your mind.
Good luck.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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No, I do not think/believe that existence in all its exquisite complexity is "all for nothing." The scientific reductionist attempts to reduce phenomena to the most simple denominator because this analytical approach is logical when dealing with discrete phenomena. However, the same type of thinking cannot be expanded to macrocosmic proportion - that is, it cannot be applied on a cosmic scale without losing the accuracy of logic. Newtonian physics cannot be applied to microphysics in the subatomic level of reality but it can be applied on a planetary scale when measuring the orbits of planets, for example. Yet on a megacosmic scale, say, the physics in and around a massive Black Hole, once again Newtonian physics will not apply because the physics in that locus of space-time is going to be a lot different from the physics governing our moon as it revolves around the Earth. Newtonian physics is both 'right' and 'wrong' in the sense of using the right tool for the right job.
In matters of metaphysics, that which is ontologically prior to physics, science in general is powerless to apply its scientific method, reason and sense data. Scientific knowledge takes us amazingly back in time to 10 the minus 43rd second from now, to the Big Bang. The further apprehension of Reality prior to that moment lies with the application of Intuition explicated by Thinking. Sensing and Feeling (the four functions Jung established and which are applied in the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator), take a back seat.
Spirituality, which becomes ensconced in a structure of symbols, is how religions begin. When the spiritual factor becomes indissoluably fused with the symbols so that one cannot discern the spirit from the [psychophysical] soul, one then has a religion which claims a monopoly on Truth. Christianity and Islam are the worst offenders in this, both claim to be the absolute final word on what is Real and therefore to be the one true religion. Such fanatical adherence to doctrine is just that uncritical fusion in the minds of the respective believers that I spoke of. Fundamentalists cannot see Christ apart from Jesus the man, because church doctrine has itself fused the two categories into a singularly unique being in the history of humankind. Islam has made the Qu'ran even more important than its prophet Muhammed. The very paper book is said to be a manifestation of God in the same sense that Johannine Christian theology said that Jesus was the fleshy Incarnation of God! Spirit and matter indissoluably fused means one cannot separate the Man, or the Book from the entire tradition in which they are respectively found, and God cannot be separated from them either.
Moreover, which elements of 'holy scripture' are deemed human, and which are deemed divine? Fanatics take everything as divine dictates from Deity and can't see the forest for the trees! The message of Jesus is Agape - Compassion. Every Sura of the Qu'ran begins: "Allah the Merciful, the Compassionate..." If Muslims read only that much of their Book and no further, and sought to be conformed to Compassion and Mercy, there would be no terrorism, no Shariah law of amputations, stonings or beheadings (one doesn't exactly see Israeli Jews stoning women to death for adultery).
In John MacQuarrie's Principles of Christian Theology, he describes the nature of God the Father (the aspect in comon with both Judaism and Islam) as "the divine letting be." Just like the Beatles CD 'Let It Be' (which I only just purchased about 40 years late), the notion of, letting be suggests complete freedom of beinghood. Translated down onto the human plane, it manifests as 'live and let live.' the very opposite of oppression, of power and control. It is generous its its liberal allowance to just be, while 'being Compassionate.' Whichever vehicle best serves 'you' as an individual who wishes to manifest Compassion, toward yourself and other sentient beings, then you are being an exponent of Compassion. And, if Compassion (love, mercy) is truly the nature of Ultimate Reality, then you are manifesting Truth inasmuch as you are manifesting Compassion. That you choose to do this, given all the ways of being available, indicates that you KNOW what is Real and True, and that makes you a Knower, a Jnana, a Gnostic. If you wish to symbolize this Knowledge outwardly, you may just find that a 'child of God' has no place to lay his head. You will not find a Gnostic church building on any corner of your town, and to hold that Gnosis can indwell a person without that person buying into Christian doctrine, for example, will make you a heretic, a fifth columnist in a church, just as it was in the 3rd century. This is not the domain to actualize the Maslowian need for 'belongingness.' Knowers walk alone.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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backfromthedead
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Indeed.
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JackthaTripper
MSME!
Registered: 01/29/07
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Quote:
AroundtheSon said:
We all struggle with these types of questions, or at least have at one point.
I believe, like the Bible says, that we are the temple of God. Thus, we have a direct link up to the Father, and really don't need religion per se to direct us. If we follow our own hearts, things will turn out okay.
So, maybe I don't need a voice for guidance... it could be as simple as direction through just following my heart, and doing what I believe is the right thing. This makes sense to me, thanks AroundtheSon.
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Come on breakthrough with me...such wonders terrify the soul...it's real no need to question...knowledge infiltrates the host
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JackthaTripper
MSME!
Registered: 01/29/07
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Quote:
jonathanseagull said:
From reading your post, it seems that you hold onto a Christian notion of God. I think that you could benefit from losing that idea, and formulating your own idea. Also though, a god defined is a god confined. For instance though, your idea of a a child in Africa living a good life then suffering all eternity... your logic already tells you that this is wrong, but doctrine tells you it's right. I think I'll stick by logic on this one. The idea of Hell falls under the tactic of "F.U.D." It's something businesses use to create Fear, Uncertainty, and Death about another businesses product. Religions play that game too.
Just keep thinking about it. If something doesn't make sense, then there are probably two options. 1) You don't have all the info you need, or the capacity to understand... or 2) It just doesn't make sense or follow logic. I'm sure you can figure out which is which with each dilemma in your mind.
Good luck.
I was raised in a Christian household so that is the closest religion that I have been associated with. I think getting away from a specific Christian sect could be beneficial, I think all the little details that separate the major Christian religions are unimportant.
However, as for hell being FUD, maybe. But I think the concept of hell is necessary, I just would like to think that someone who tortures babies ends up with a different fate then someone who helps sick babies...
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Come on breakthrough with me...such wonders terrify the soul...it's real no need to question...knowledge infiltrates the host
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Heaven & hell are both states of mind... we create them
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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JackthaTripper
MSME!
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You put forth some good information and ideas, I particularly am found of your last line, it seems to sum it up well; "Knowers walk alone."
I think that it would be wise for me to get away from organized structured religious organizations and just base my beliefs around a loose version of Christianity. I will continue to ask for guidance and have my heart show me the way (hopefully with the help of God).
Thanks everyone for the advice and ideas!
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Come on breakthrough with me...such wonders terrify the soul...it's real no need to question...knowledge infiltrates the host
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backfromthedead
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Heaven & hell are both states of mind... we create them
I would like to add that when the baby killer's self induced amnesia barrier is obliterated in a hail of 'stones'... He will be exposed to judgment, and the state of mind that he finds himself in from there on out will be HELL, literally. Naughty or nice??
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JackthaTripper
MSME!
Registered: 01/29/07
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Quote:
backfromthedead said:
Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Heaven & hell are both states of mind... we create them
I would like to add that when the baby killer's self induced amnesia barrier is obliterated in a hail of 'stones'... He will be exposed to judgment, and the state of mind that he finds himself in from there on out will be HELL, literally. Naughty or nice??
Some people don't have that late emerging conscious. How does this balance out? Without the concept of hell someone could live their whole lives committing atrocities with no consequence in the end. I have to believe that what goes around come around, if not in this life hopefully it is balanced out in what follows life.
Do you believe in some version of heaven? If so what happens to those that do not make it in?
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Come on breakthrough with me...such wonders terrify the soul...it's real no need to question...knowledge infiltrates the host
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Quote:
JackthaTripper said:
Some people don't have that late emerging conscious. How does this balance out? Without the concept of hell someone could live their whole lives committing atrocities with no consequence in the end. I have to believe that what goes around come around, if not in this life hopefully it is balanced out in what follows life.
All of us have consciousness. Even if one doesn't feel "guilty", one will experience "hell" in one way or another due to the nature of consciousness. At least this is what I have observed. I think it's the same thing that Buddhists call karma.
Quote:
Do you believe in some version of heaven? If so what happens to those that do not make it in?
I believe in freedom. As in the natural (cosmic) flow. What can be more "heavenly" then that?
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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leery11
I Tell You What!
Registered: 06/24/05
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Quote:
JackthaTripper said:
Quote:
backfromthedead said:
Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Heaven & hell are both states of mind... we create them
I would like to add that when the baby killer's self induced amnesia barrier is obliterated in a hail of 'stones'... He will be exposed to judgment, and the state of mind that he finds himself in from there on out will be HELL, literally. Naughty or nice??
Some people don't have that late emerging conscious. How does this balance out? Without the concept of hell someone could live their whole lives committing atrocities with no consequence in the end. I have to believe that what goes around come around, if not in this life hopefully it is balanced out in what follows life.
Do you believe in some version of heaven? If so what happens to those that do not make it in?
This is karma man. It has nothing to do with judgment but everything to do with dominoes.
Recognize that we are all authorities....
So, what happens when you die ? Well, what if someone has a tendency to seek out masochistic pleasures. Does it stand to reason that in seeking pain as pleasure they will harm themselves? Does it stand to reason that wherever they go, whatever they do, so long as they have the dominoes of masochism falling in motion, they will inevitably suffer the harms associated with this psychological mindset?
What of a thief. Why does one steal, especially when simple panhandling could get one just enough money for food and nice items? Does the thief lose his lust for stealing upon death? Does he decide to merge with God? Or does he keep craving? Is his craving blinding him to higher forms of spiritual reality?
See, whenever one commits an atrocity, it is because their mind is deluded with wrong views about the nature of reality. They are seeking to fill a God-hole with a blunt instrument that causes damage upon insertion, but they are so used to it that they come to think of it as pleasure. The pleasure comes at the cost of extreme suffering is therefore an illusion, yet, they know no other way. It is somewhat like a vicious heroin addiction. No doubt heaven is experienced, but no doubt it is a stark contrast to the ever-present hells that this so called Savior, actually a false God and a Devil, creates.
So...... you have all these terrible views in your mind, you are already being "punished" for what you are doing regardless of the afterlife, because any human being who is completely devoid of any and all sufferings will never commit an atrocity and will see no reason to, already being in a state of Grace with the Kingdom of God, therefore we have hells and heavens in this very Earthly existence in our own consciousnesses....
but what happens to the bar drunk who creates his entire temple upon a foundation of dominoes of suffering, craving, hatred, anger, competetion..... who has killed his identity as Christ and settled nicely into a role of angry man who gets into lots of fist fights.
He has already created a company of demons to associate with in this life, will he seek out angels when he dies, or will he follow the trail of his toppled empire into darker waters where his entire world is composed only of those who share his enjoyment of consumption, addiction, fighting, and competition?
Physics tells us energy cannot be created or destroyed....... one who makes his home in dense energies migrates to dense energies.
What we unfortunately see on Earth is that there are immeasurable dense energies in need of purging as well as very high holy energies in need of being noticed, but basically Earth is sort of a training realm where one can pick heaven or shades of hell (Earth is indeed almost a shade of hell if one does not attain spiritual harmony) based upon the kind of activities they are inclined to do, and from there they can simply move to denser or lighter realms as they see fit upon death.
It is an issue of choice. It is also an issue of exhaustion. Eventually one will be consumed fully and purged of their wrong deeds no matter where they go.
I can very well be wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_noble_truths
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-fold_Noble_Path
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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Let be ...
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Disclaimer!?
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EllisDSox
King Hella!
Registered: 01/22/07
Posts: 25,730
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Re: Seeking Answers [Re: Gomp]
#6976973 - 05/28/07 09:24 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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It's probably a lot easier, not to mention more beneficial to you, to base your concepts of spirituality, the universe and God on what you have seen and experienced, with or without the help of psychedelics, rather than on what someone wrote in a book many thousands of years ago.
Your story sounds a lot like mine. I was always a totally cynical atheist until I began to use psychedelics, after which point the revelations and experiences I had been through completely changed my perspective of spirituality. Far from the authoritarian, irrational police officer figure of the Bible, I came to see God as a force of pure positive energy that one can embrace and find unity with all the universe as well as an increased drive to do good. Almost in the sense that good deeds are a channeling of this energy.
You don't have to look anywhere other than into your own mind, or out your window to see what you believe and how you view the universe. You don't need anyone, or anything else to reaffirm your philosophical or spiritual views, as ultimately all reality is in the eye of the beholder. Spirituality and religion are totally different things. Religion constitutes the institutions and organisation designed around, and intended to spread the spiritual experience. It's the experience itself that's important, regardless of whether or not your views have a religion to be reconciled to.
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Disclaimer: If you have any kind of heart condition, my posts are not for you. You could literally die from reading the first couple of words in any one of them. Scroll down the page, live your life and prosper, but don't read my posts because your heart will probably explode. I am not joking.
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JackthaTripper
MSME!
Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 2,494
Loc: Mind Exploration
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Re: Seeking Answers [Re: EllisDSox]
#6978521 - 05/28/07 04:59 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Some strong words… things I have come to believe without the direct help of the traditional Christian things I’ve been taught, things my heart has shown me. Karma is a philosophy that I have seen to be true in my own life, maybe it is the great equalizer, and the injustices of this life are equaled out in this life. I’m sure many times karma causes the tormenting of someone because of some evil deed that they keep committing and they wonder why bad things keep happening to them… it takes one that is very in tune with they’re own life to recognize all the evils they are doing and to rectify them.
We have our own autonomy, which lets us define who we are. Maybe this world is in some form a great temptress, a filtering system of sorts separating the good and evil parts of the whole. We all have these decisions and choices to make on a daily basis, and at the end of it all the things we have done in our lives, the people we have touched, the impact that we have made is the real key. And if we live our lives the best way we can, and have a relationship with God then we just have to have faith that we will be rewarded. While we are on this earth our good deeds will perpetuate a good life, Karma.
Quote:
leery11 said:
This is karma man. It has nothing to do with judgment but everything to do with dominoes.
Recognize that we are all authorities....
See, whenever one commits an atrocity, it is because their mind is deluded with wrong views about the nature of reality. They are seeking to fill a God-hole with a blunt instrument that causes damage upon insertion, but they are so used to it that they come to think of it as pleasure. The pleasure comes at the cost of extreme suffering is therefore an illusion, yet, they know no other way.
So...... you have all these terrible views in your mind, you are already being "punished" for what you are doing regardless of the afterlife, because any human being who is completely devoid of any and all sufferings will never commit an atrocity and will see no reason to, already being in a state of Grace with the Kingdom of God, therefore we have hells and heavens in this very Earthly existence in our own consciousnesses....
Physics tells us energy cannot be created or destroyed....... one who makes his home in dense energies migrates to dense energies.
What we unfortunately see on Earth is that there are immeasurable dense energies in need of purging as well as very high holy energies in need of being noticed, but basically Earth is sort of a training realm where one can pick heaven or shades of hell (Earth is indeed almost a shade of hell if one does not attain spiritual harmony) based upon the kind of activities they are inclined to do, and from there they can simply move to denser or lighter realms as they see fit upon death.
Nicely put.
One who truly knows God will be consumed with the positive energy of God and will therefore be compelled to make good, right and true choices. And this is what determines what happens to you in the afterlife. One will be attracted to like ones; earth is the filter to establish your pole (with good and evil the diametrically apposed poles).
“Earth is indeed almost a shade of hell if one does not attain spiritual harmony”, this especially struck me as I at one point thought that I had slipped into a lower realm (hell?), since then I have come to terms with some things in my life and am no longer under this impression. I think your right, one out of spiritual harmony can put themselves into a self induced version of hell.
Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
All of us have consciousness. Even if one doesn't feel "guilty", one will experience "hell" in one way or another due to the nature of consciousness. At least this is what I have observed. I think it's the same thing that Buddhists call karma.
I believe in freedom. As in the natural (cosmic) flow. What can be more "heavenly" then that?
Once again Karma seems to be a viable and accurate concept.
As far as your idea of an afterlife I’m not completely sure exactly what you believe and am interested. What do you mean by natural cosmic flow? What freedom do we have after death has occurred? Or do you mean our existence occurs strictly on this earth (effectively no afterlife)?
Quote:
EllisDSox said:
Your story sounds a lot like mine. I was always a totally cynical atheist until I began to use psychedelics, after which point the revelations and experiences I had been through completely changed my perspective of spirituality. Far from the authoritarian, irrational police officer figure of the Bible, I came to see God as a force of pure positive energy that one can embrace and find unity with all the universe as well as an increased drive to do good. Almost in the sense that good deeds are a channeling of this energy.
You don't have to look anywhere other than into your own mind, or out your window to see what you believe and how you view the universe. You don't need anyone, or anything else to reaffirm your philosophical or spiritual views, as ultimately all reality is in the eye of the beholder. Spirituality and religion are totally different things. Religion constitutes the institutions and organisation designed around, and intended to spread the spiritual experience. It's the experience itself that's important, regardless of whether or not your views have a religion to be reconciled to.
“… until I began to use psychedelics, after which point the revelations and experiences I had been through completely changed my perspective of spirituality… I came to see God as a force of pure positive energy that one can embrace and find unity with all the universe as well as an increased drive to do good.”
I find it funny that the spiritual movement of the 60s and 70s was a rebellion from the traditional structure of the Church catalyzed by psychedelic use, then in my own life this same transformation occurs (apparently as it does to others). It seems to have a dual effect of simultaneously sparking a desire to find some version of true goodness, God, while rejecting the structure and control of the church.
Thank you everyone for helping me sort out some of these issues. I think I was in the right track but just needed some outside help to bring it all together. Funny how we have all come to some version of what we find to be true and these opinions, although from independent sources, were remarkably similar. It seems a force has guided us to the similar conclusions, and maybe God does manifest himself in earthly ways… maybe the Native Americans were right when they named the sacred mushroom “God’s Flesh” a shortcut to the truth and the light… and a unique and unmatched insight into your own life and your own actions shaping your life into a positive one, a mirror of everything that God stands for.
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Come on breakthrough with me...such wonders terrify the soul...it's real no need to question...knowledge infiltrates the host
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