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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Posts: 3,040
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The Problem with Religion
    #2276022 - 01/26/04 11:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

is that we have hundreds of millions of people on one side who are absolutely convinced they they have the Truth and we have another group of hundreds of millions of people who are also absolutely convinced that they have the Truth, and another group and another group... and they're ALL ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED THAT THEY AND THEY ALONE HAVE THE TRUTH.

could it be that they're all wrong?

what is the one true faith?


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Offlinedistortion
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2276047 - 01/26/04 11:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If you find the answer to that, let me know :thumbup: lol


--------------------
Think for Yourself. Question Authority.

-Timothy Leary


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Anonymous

Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2276053 - 01/26/04 11:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

is that we have hundreds of millions of people on one side who are absolutely convinced they they have the Truth and we have another group of hundreds of millions of people who are also absolutely convinced that they have the Truth, and another group and another group... and they're ALL ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED THAT THEY AND THEY ALONE HAVE THE TRUTH.

most people have that mindset whether they are religious or not.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: ]
    #2276059 - 01/27/04 12:00 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

true, but religion actually encourages such a mindset


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Anonymous

Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2276071 - 01/27/04 12:05 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

not all of them do though... if you meet the buddha, kill him!


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2276085 - 01/27/04 12:11 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
could it be that they're all wrong?



Maybe they are all partially right. Maybe a good starting point would be to find universal points of agreement, throw out everything else (at least temporarily) and try to make some sense of it.

Quote:

what is the one true faith?



Is there one true faith?

We all have our own personal windows on the universe, we see different things and we look from different perspectives, some windows are filthy, others are a stained glass with embedded bubbles that can never be made clear. What is seen by one, may not be visible to another. Does this mean that since the views don't agree that one of them is wrong?

Do you see what I'm saying?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: ]
    #2276121 - 01/27/04 12:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

good point, but I don't really consider Buddhism to be a "religion".
if it was, there wouldn't be any Buddhist Christians!

not all religions are as intolerant as Chrisitanity.. or Islam, but they all insist that they alone have the Truth and all other faiths are mistaken, or worse, works of the devil.

I think if religion is to have any relavence in the modern world, they have to let go of such insular, xenophobic tendencies, and embrace a more expansive view.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2276129 - 01/27/04 12:30 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Why can't they just co-exist, peacefully?


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: Evolving]
    #2276170 - 01/27/04 12:44 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

yeah I see what you're saying. I'm not saying that one view is wrong, or that they're all wrong. I think every view of God is a part of the puzzle, but not one view is flexible enough to emcompass the totality of creation. I'm just disappointed that in this day and age, religious leaders still insist that they alone are the one true faith...

because of this, for a spiritual man who seeks a more expansive view, mainstream religion is just not an option. we must look elsewhere, to the God of Spinoza, the God of Einstein, the Logos, the tao.. IT goes by many names, but mainstream religion is more interested in a personal, intervening god... to answer prayers, to tell them how to live their lives, to smite their enemies

it's the Golden Calf all over again...


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: Frog]
    #2276187 - 01/27/04 12:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I don't know. I'm calling for change so that there can be peaceful co-existence.
I've always taken a progressive view when it comes to religion but I feel it's hopeless. how can there ever be peace when some Christians think of Muslims as the devil incarnate, and some Muslims think of us as the "Great Satan"? as long as religion exists in it's current state, there can be no lasting world peace.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2276307 - 01/27/04 01:37 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

But that's what I mean!

There can't be peace as long as any religion views another with hostility.

I think evolving got it right: Let's throw everything out, and figure out, first, where we all agree. Then, let's slowly build on that. Keep the parts that match, throw out the parts that don't.

There's just too many differences.

See, I don't mind that there are people that don't believe the way I do, that you have to accept Jesus as your saviour to go to heaven. For instance, I accept that the Jews think that Jesus was just a prophet. But I will be laughed at or scoffed at for believing the way I do.

As long as there are people with egos, there will be scoffers. If people didn't let their egos get in the way, everyone could accept each other's different beliefs without feeling threatened.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinelateralus
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: Frog]
    #2276439 - 01/27/04 03:05 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
I think evolving got it right: Let's throw everything out, and figure out, first, where we all agree. Then, let's slowly build on that. Keep the parts that match, throw out the parts that don't.




A new religion is born and eventually politicians or power-hungry people would get ahold of it and a new ideology rife with dogmas would be born...


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: lateralus]
    #2276456 - 01/27/04 03:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well, yes, that would be true. Of course.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Edited by Frog (01/27/04 03:19 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2276926 - 01/27/04 09:36 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: ]
    #2277317 - 01/27/04 12:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

However, if that section of the canon, or text, is merely allegorical, it escapes empirical investigation on that count.

And how does one separate the allegorical from the factual? Jesus taught in parables which were clearly allegorical, but the stories / myths about him and much of his alleged words are not spoken in parable yet certainly seem allegorical to this reader.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2277504 - 01/27/04 01:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I agree. Further, ultimately the problem with religion and any other belief system (political, scientific) that proclaims to be THE WAY is the underlying belief that THE WAY exists. The belief that there is some objectively real way. The belief that there is something really out there, some kind of substantive, ultimate way/thing with which we must align our beliefs. Its not just the belief that we can actually understand it that?s flawed- its the belief that it is there! It?s a delusion-

?and good god, holy crap this idea is hard to convey using dualistic language!!!


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2277683 - 01/27/04 03:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

All roads lead to Rome.....

But are you walking towards Rome or away from it?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2277757 - 01/27/04 03:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I think the best "religion" would be one where we admit we have no fucking clue what's going on, but that the insense sure smells nice.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: Strumpling]
    #2278107 - 01/27/04 05:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You left out the virgin maidens in gossamer dresses with flowers in their hair...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: Swami]
    #2278114 - 01/27/04 05:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You got me thinkin'... Can I be the leader of this cult?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: Evolving]
    #2278128 - 01/27/04 05:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If you have to ask, then the answer is a clear "No!". Leaders don't need no steenkin' permission.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: Swami]
    #2278142 - 01/27/04 05:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The question was rhetorical, for I am already sitting on the throne. BRING THE VIRGINS TO ME... NOW!!!


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: Evolving]
    #2278149 - 01/27/04 05:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Did they let you out early, Charlie? Squeekie sez "Hi."


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: Swami]
    #2278156 - 01/27/04 05:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

How did you know?!?! I let my bangs grow...


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: buttonion]
    #2278960 - 01/27/04 10:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Its not just the belief that we can actually understand it that?s flawed- its the belief that it is there! It?s a delusion

yes. we may all be grasping at patterns in the smoke for all we know and building up these delusions into towering pretentions of Truth.

..maybe the story of the Tower of Babel is an allegory for Religion..


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: Strumpling]
    #2278966 - 01/27/04 10:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I think the best "religion" would be one where we admit we have no fucking clue what's going on, but that the insense sure smells nice.

yes, that would be my religion..
and our incense does smell quite nice :spliff:


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: Frog]
    #2278968 - 01/27/04 10:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It's not religion that is the problem, it is the people "following" it. Never judge a faith by the actions of some (or most) of its "followers."


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: Funguy]
    #2279025 - 01/27/04 10:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Why shouldn't we judge a religion by its followers? I would think that a good way of judging the validity of a religion would be how it is manifested in the lives of its followers. Buddhist nations tend to have much lower violent crime rates than America, one of the most devoutly Christian nations.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2279047 - 01/27/04 10:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What's the Tower of Babel story?


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: buttonion]
    #2279089 - 01/27/04 11:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Genesis 11:1-9 (NIV):

And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2280329 - 01/28/04 12:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

babel ---> babble...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: gnrm23]
    #2280489 - 01/28/04 12:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

babel ---> babble...

Did bubble gum used to be bubel gum back in the day?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: silversoul7]
    #2280683 - 01/28/04 02:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Why shouldn't we judge a religion by its followers? I would think that a good way of judging the validity of a religion would be how it is manifested in the lives of its followers. Buddhist nations tend to have much lower violent crime rates than America, one of the most devoutly Christian nations.




I don't consider America to be a "Christian" nation, it is far from it. However, many people consider themselves to be Christians. You can be a "Christian" even if you only go to church for Christmas and Easter. The word Christian is one on the most abused terms used today.
Most of the people commiting these crimes are not Christians, and if they say they are they have a perverted sense of what it means to be one. I'm saying you should judge a religion based on that the religion is about, not from the actions of its supposed "followers."


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: Funguy]
    #2280701 - 01/28/04 02:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

And who are you to say who the real Christians are? How much ya wanna bet those same people would accuse you of not being a true Christian? And what is Christianity all about? There are millions of people with millions of interpretations, armed with Bible quotes to back up their agendas. Reminds me of the time I went to see the Dalai Lama speak, and there were all these Christian protesters outside with picket signs saying we were all going to Hell, and sometimes Bible verses to back that claim up. As I passed one of them, I gave him a peace sign and said, "Judge not, lest thou be judged."


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinerecalcitrant
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: Funguy]
    #2280713 - 01/28/04 02:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Christianity is the prevailing religion in America. It's beliefs and it's culture and its ideals and its dogma are deeply ingrained in the psyche. Just because a person doesn't call themself a christian doesn't mean they haven't been influenced by christianity.


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We have to answer our own prayers


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: silversoul7]
    #2280718 - 01/28/04 02:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Reminds me of the time I went to see the Dalai Lama speak, and there were all these Christian protesters outside with picket signs saying we were all going to Hell

man that is horrible :frown:

there will never be peace on earth...

"Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth..."


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Invisiblemuhurgle
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: Funguy]
    #2280727 - 01/28/04 02:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

One nation under God? USA is the stronghold of Christianity. If any nation is Christian, it is the US.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: muhurgle]
    #2280734 - 01/28/04 02:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What's funny is that many of the European nations that brought Christianity over to America are now mostly atheist. If only we could follow their example...


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: silversoul7]
    #2280948 - 01/28/04 03:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Christianism is a religion which to become known and accepted did HORRIBLE things in the past. Whoever dared to renounce this religion was SLAUGHTERED without mercy. These are the things the followers did and the reasons varied from personal to political and economical.

What the bible is trying to teach is very important, but the whole thing...the bible and Christianism and the 10 orders of Moises as we know them in Greece are soooooo far embedded in the Christians DNA which one at the end of the day forgets what the religion that he has put his faith in is all about.

I remember when a painting of Christ that was said to be holy and could do miracles was brought in Greece, Athens for all the christians to see...There were old people stepping on each other bodies and hearting each other in order to get to the painting first.

There could be millions of examples of christians bad behaviour but the point is that if,for me, you take out all the Jesus and Virgin Mary stuff you are left with some beautifull advices for life and interesting ways to live your life.

I was born a christian, though I am not now and I have been taught about all that christianity "advices". I hold the part that I agree with and continue debating. Who was it that said....I red it somewhere here in these forums...it was ones signature...that when all agree with each other, someone is not thinking...


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Offlinenubious
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: Shroomerious]
    #2281055 - 01/28/04 04:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I love Canada.. we don't have bullshit slogans like "In god we trust" on our money.. I mean come on.. how fucking christian can you get... (not neccassarily a christian slogan, but when the President is Christian, you'd think he'd do something about that....)

Heh.. Christians dropping nukes.. Sounds like that star above the manger (sp?) in Bethleham.. no wait.. that's not a star... it's a shooting star.. no wait... it's the tail of a 40 ton bomb headed to japan...


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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OfflineShroomerious
OO
Male

Registered: 07/27/03
Posts: 534
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: nubious]
    #2281090 - 01/28/04 04:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :nut: :nut: :lol: :lol: :nut: :nut: :lol:

Nubious!!!You are tottaly ccccccccoooooooooooooooooooorect!!!


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: nubious]
    #2281284 - 01/28/04 05:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, but when you are "in the right" you can do whatever you want and find a Biblical quote to back it up!


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineFunguy
Homo SapiensEntheogenous
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: silversoul7]
    #2283246 - 01/29/04 10:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well, then I wonder about their faith, but it is not my job to judge. People can accuse me of not being a Christian if they want, look at Martin Luther, or any other Christian that did what was right instead of what the Church said to do. If you want to see the real Christianity then ignore what people say and read was Jesus said. Christians don't realize that going around condeming people to hell is not going to bring them any closer to God.
And I'm really tired of people blasting homosexuals. I myself believe that it is wrong, but like I said I'm not one to judge. Homosexuals are no more sinners than a heterosexual. I'm also tired of people telling me "marijuana is bad because it harms the temple," when they themselves are 50lbs overweight from eating fast food. I guess I better stop before this becomes an all out rant.


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OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: Funguy]
    #2283964 - 01/29/04 02:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

check out this sickening site:

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/faq.html

look at #30 -What do you think of the Religious Right?
...
the Problem isn't just with different religions, it exists even within the same religion.
people interpret the bible differently and get upset when others don't see it the way THEY interpret it.
there's really no use talking about "true" christians, because they're ALL convinced that they are the true christians :nonono:

maybe the problem isn't religion at all
maybe the real problem is certitude...


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OfflineEarth_Droid
Stranger
Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 5,240
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2284069 - 01/29/04 03:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I don't care what anyone says, you all have your own religion whether you think so or not.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: Funguy]
    #2284138 - 01/29/04 03:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If you want to see the real Christianity then ignore what people say and read was Jesus said.



Well, if that is the standard for real Christianity, then I think the Nietzche quote I once posted here applies pretty well:

"There was only one true Christian, and he died on the cross."


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2284370 - 01/29/04 04:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"and our incense does smell quite nice :spliff:"

rofl man exactly :wink:


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #2284374 - 01/29/04 04:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

We all have our own ideas. The problem is ideas which exclude other ideas based on blind faith.


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"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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OfflineFunguy
Homo SapiensEntheogenous
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/07/03
Posts: 2,415
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Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2284412 - 01/29/04 05:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
maybe the problem isn't religion at all
maybe the real problem is certitude...




Or the people following the religion. Do we judge all Muslims because of what a few do? Those people who crash into buildings, etc really think they are doing the right thing. It is because they are taught a perverted view of their faith, and do not question what the leaders say. It is important to ask questions! But remember, not everyone may have the answer you want to hear. Some might tell you what you want to know, some might tell you what they think you should know, some might tell you what you need to know, some might not know themselves...


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: The Problem with Religion [Re: Funguy]
    #2285741 - 01/30/04 12:46 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I hear what you're saying,

It is because they are taught a perverted view of their faith

but I happen to believe that religion itself is a perversion of faith


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