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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Downplaying Reality
    #6302621 -

It seems like a lot of people like to tell us what's really REAL and what isn't. People talk about Maya and illusions, saying that suffering, or ego, or death, or time, or a whole plethora of other randomly chosen abstract concepts are not REAL. Reality or whatever you want to call the sum total of existence becomes separated into two distinct categories for these people: reality and illusion. Those who often try to see what's real and what's not real, in the process, create their own cage of duality. The question is, why do people like to believe that those concepts, emotions or pieces of themselves they experience every moment are not actually real?

Clearly, most people don't know what reality is, because most people don't care about certainty. They don't seem to realize that their faith can go one way or another, that it could be true or mixed with lies, and that nothing in faith or belief is certain. In fact, the only thing that's certain, based on this relativist universe, is the experience of the perceiver himself.

For whatever reason we perceive an experience, the experience still exists, and it is also true that the experience is the only reality that the perceiver can ever know. Therefore, for the perceiver, everything in the experience is reality. To deny integral pieces of the experience as illusion is to create dissocation and fragmentation in the experience rather than accepting the certainty of the experience unconditionally and working to advance yourself in it. To create cracks and canyons in an experience is to only let your will flow out of it, and most people need all the willpower they can get.

So yes, the ego is real, time is real, death is real, and as a matter of fact every ugly, unsightly, suicidally nihilistic aspect of reality is also real and working itself around your neck as we speak. That is reality, and there is no differentiation we could call illusion with any certainty.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Downplaying Reality [Re: Ravus]
    #6302641 -

I think you just debunked eastern religion.

:congrats:

Wait, I mean...  You suck, Ravus.  Moron.  :wink:

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Re: Downplaying Reality [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6302666 -

Quote:
I think you just debunked eastern religion.


:lolocaust:

I'm surprised you think that all eastern religions can be lumped together so conveniently.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Downplaying Reality [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6302679 -

I think you just debunked eastern religion.

:wtf:
His thoughts seem to be in accord with Taoism and Zen Buddhism.

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Re: Downplaying Reality [Re: Ravus]
    #6302683 -

Quote:
So yes, the ego is real, time is real, death is real, and as a matter of fact every ugly, unsightly, suicidally nihilistic aspect of reality is also real and working itself around your neck as we speak. That is reality, and there is no differentiation we could call illusion with any certainty.


Or perhaps, one could say that all these things appear to be real. Inside of a dream, for instance, everything appears to be real, yet when we wake up, there is no doubt that what we were certain was real was in fact just our imagination.

I think that what you call reality is just like a dream, only with no dreamer.

Form is emptiness and emptiness is form.

I define reality to be that which exists intrinsically, without depending on anything else for its existence. When you analyze reality, there is nothing at all that fits that description. Nothing exists intrinsically. Therefore it's not quite right to say that everything really exists. Nor is it quite right to say that nothing exists. Nor is it quite right to say that things neither exist nor don't exist. Nor is it quite right to say that things both exist and don't exist.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Downplaying Reality [Re: Ravus]
    #6302688 -

you don't perceive an experience.
you experience it.
you can only perceive a little part of what's happenning.
Quote:
myself:
perception is the embracing of some sensation or thought memory by associating it with images or sounds or ideas that match from your memory banks.
it is the first associative part of experiencing.
it relates to collating or categorizing or labeling or engulfing in one of those ways.

but you do see the flaw in labelling what others declare as illusion. if only they would be satisfied by calling things by what they really are.
i.e. "labeled" hence "limited"
"personal" hence "limited"
"obsessive" hence "limited"
etc.


anyway we can't put the whole universe into a tiny bag, but we can certainly try to open the bag up and watch what falls in.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Downplaying Reality [Re: Ravus]
    #6302691 -

For whatever reason we perceive an experience, the experience still exists, and it is also true that the experience is the only reality that the perceiver can ever know. Therefore, for the perceiver, everything in the experience is reality.

Yes. I was dicussing this with Veritas this morning. ALL REAL! Including your wildest speculations. Nothing is more real than everything is unreal.  :confused: :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Downplaying Reality [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6302694 -

MushmanTheManic said:
I think you just debunked eastern religion.

:wtf:
His thoughts seem to be in accord with Taoism and Zen Buddhism.


How so?

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Re: Downplaying Reality [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6302700 -

Taoism and Zen Buddhism do not go off in speculation of what could be, both metaphysically and cosmologically. They are only concerned with what IS.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Downplaying Reality [Re: dblaney]
    #6302707 -

"Nirvana is the extinguishment of all desire, delusion and ignorance. It has been likened to the snuffing out of a candle, where the spirit is freed from all worldly passions; it is the realization that the Self does not exist, and that human desires are empty."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism

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Re: Downplaying Reality [Re: dblaney]
    #6302711 -

You're right about taoism though.

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Re: Downplaying Reality [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6302757 -

Quote:
His thoughts seem to be in accord with Taoism and Zen Buddhism.



How bout it? :lol:

What a polar flip for ravus, from the nothing to the all.:lol:

Really ravus, it was you who use break subjective realities down to nothing but delusions.

And now, you accuse people for not owning up to the reality of them?

That is rich, this place is rich. Gotta love it! :discodance:


:heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Downplaying Reality [Re: Ravus]
    #6302849 -

You brought up some very good points and generally I must say that I agree with them and would also like to throw in my 5 cents.

A lot of us on a spiritual path have an intellectual (air) and/or spiritual (fire) only view of the World on account of suppressing our emotional (water) and physical (earth) understanding of reality.

People who see the world as merely an illusion or Brahman (Maya) at play; operate from Fire only perspective of the world and in some instances that view is correct. Yet if seen as the whole picture instead of only part of it, it can seriously strip-down the reality and depth of Life.  :ashamed:

For example, a lot of people use spiritually inclusive perspective when dealing with the death of a loved one. The pain one feels on occasions like this can reach levels near unbearable. In that case the psyche switches to fire only perspective; there is no death, nothing is real anyway and all is just an illusion. This is a rational response and it is helpful, yet if it is used to completely bypass the sadness and grief by denying the reality of here-and-now it is not helpful and might result in various psychopathologies in some later time, such as depression, etc.

This is because the grief is in the physical and emotional body and not that much in the Spirit itself. The physical body feels and knows it will never touch the loved one again. It feels it will never be embraced by him or her anymore. Every cell in the body feels the longing, the grief and it needs to express itself by mourning. It needs to cry, to shake, to scream, to feel the loss that will never be recovered.  :sad: No mental or spiritual construct can replace that. If we would do that we would only rob ourselves and the ones that have passed on.  :mushroom2:

The Reality is complex and Life is hard. Let us be touched by it without hiding from it.  :heart:


--------------------

"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."

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Re: Downplaying Reality [Re: Ravus]
    #6302941 -

If I percieve I am a bird, I should be able to jump off of the 23rd floor of a building safely... right?

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Re: Downplaying Reality [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6302992 -

Orrr.........you could try to jump into the air from the ground...

:tongue:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Downplaying Reality [Re: dblaney]
    #6303006 -

Nonsense! Why would I have any reason to believe I was not a bird if I perceived I was one? Perception is reality!

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Re: Downplaying Reality [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6303023 -

MushmanTheManic said:
If I percieve I am a bird, I should be able to jump off of the 23rd floor of a building safely... right?


This has never been part of my experience, so I cannot confirm or deny it. If your entire experience confirmed your nature of being as a bird, then you would not logically have any hesitations anyway, because you would not know any other way of looking at yourself. Even if you had taken large doses of datura mixed with some other deleriant drugs, there would probably still be some conflicting signs that you are not actually a bird, that your experience is real but that your projections to the future are flawed. However, if you just denied all the miniscule human details as illusions, then you would probably have no problem jumping off the building. :smirk:

Abstract concepts or spiritual experiences are entirely confirmed within the experience itself, but don't expect their reality to continue to affect you after more important issues take over those aspects of the experience.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Downplaying Reality [Re: Ravus]
    #6303062 -

If your entire experience confirmed your nature of being as a bird, then you would not logically have any hesitations anyway, because you would not know any other way of looking at yourself.

What if my entire experience hadn't confirmed this? What if I woke up one morning with wings and a beak? Does it seem more probable that I am hallucinating - my perception is different from reality - or that I have actually become a bird?

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Re: Downplaying Reality [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6303083 -

Discerning the details which separate delusion from perception seems to be a rare ability. We are often so concerned with being right, or being accepted by others, or avoiding change, that we insist on ignoring new conflicting information.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that non-dogmatic perception is reality?

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Re: Downplaying Reality [Re: Ravus]
    #6303128 -

Abstract concepts or spiritual experiences are entirely confirmed within the experience itself

1. How can you experience an abstract concept?
2. How can an experience confirm itself? (Seems like begging the question.)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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