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Re: Becoming Offended [Re: Asante]
    #6108101 -

That is their preference. My preference is to conserve energy through curbing my self importance where I can.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Becoming Offended [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6108116 -

"Can you respect a child molester as much as you your children?"

Every human deserves a default level of respect just for being human. I would not want an unrepentant child molester near my children or in my life...but neither do I want a wild grizzly bear in my house. The bear does not offend me, but I stay away from it...why are people any different? Why would the bear be impersonal, but an out of control human personal...that is illogical. I stand by my preference that being offended is a waste of energy....moralistic thinking is a trap in my personal view.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Becoming Offended [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6109043 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
I would not want an unrepentant child molester near my children or in my life...but neither do I want a wild grizzly bear in my house.


If I would ever be near one, out of fear of being mauled, I'd run, but from a distance, bear cubs are very cute. I also consider a bear catching a fish a very graceful and Zen-like act. I couldnt say either about someone who corrupts and ruins an innocent human life.

Quote:
moralistic thinking is a trap in my personal view.


That statement is meaningless unless you answer the last question in my prior post.

Quote:
Every human deserves a default level of respect just for being human.


Does that mean I should disrespect these bears you speak of?  :eek:


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010001100100001001000101!

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Re: Becoming Offended [Re: Fospher]
    #6109159 -

"That statement is meaningless unless you answer the last question in my prior post."

You mean would I rape my own children? Of course not. As a parent I wish to see my children come into adulthood unencumbered by severe emotional baggage. I also have no sexual attraction to children. This is merely a practical view. Why overlay a moral system onto behavior that already is under control. Morals are blanket rules that become unnecessary to those who take full responsibility for their thought and action. Moralistic thinking leads to a process where everything and everyone must be processed through a moral filter to determine if they are good or bad. This filter is usually arbitrary and based on cultural norms instead of practical common sense. This behavior is the basis for many negative behaviors in society such as discrimination, war, and racial cleansing (genocide). Why not take people and things on their own merit and exercise an open mind.

"If I would ever be near one, out of fear of being mauled, I'd run, but from a distance, bear cubs are very cute. I also consider a bear catching a fish a very graceful and Zen-like act. I couldn't say either about someone who corrupts and ruins an innocent human life."

Your interpretation of "grizzly bear" is a culturally defined concept that you have associated with higher ideals involving the harshness and purity of nature, but in reality it is a non-poetic sentient creature that may decide that you taste good. A "child molester" or "serial killer" is also a similarly culturally defined concept with negative associations to you, but they are still dangerous animals in the same way as a grizzly bear. Remove the cultural perceptions and you have similarly unpredictable and dangerous animals. There is no difference. I must note that when child moleters are babies they are probably cute as well...like the bear cubs.

"Does that mean I should disrespect these bears you speak of?"

Of course not. Maybe I should clarify...it is my preference that all living things are given respect in their own measure. A grizzly definitely deserves my respect, but you are free to disrespect one if that is your preference. Note that I say preference because this is an individual thing...not a blanket generalization. I tend to stick with what is practical for me and me alone.

At one point in the past I was a very angry and violent person who had rarely experienced happiness that was not materially motivated. Since I have adopted this view I have found myself to be much less aggressive and much more at peace with myself. I do not spend time and energy worrying about the thoughts and actions of others, and I find that I have much more energy with which to give meaning to my own existence. This means that for me this is a practical way of life with value, but that is my preference. You are free to think differently.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Becoming Offended [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6109258 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
"That statement is meaningless unless you answer the last question in my prior post."

You mean would I rape my own children? Of course not. As a parent I wish to see my children come into adulthood unencumbered by severe emotional baggage.


So therefore, you do not want to rape or have your children rape. As extreme of an example it might be, it is still an absolute moral.

Quote:
Moralistic thinking leads to a process where everything and everyone must be processed through a moral filter to determine if they are good or bad ... This behavior is the basis for many negative behaviors in society such as discrimination, war, and racial cleansing (genocide).


Judging someone under false pretenses (racism and prejudice) is not the same as judging someone for their past deeds. If someone was a previous child molester you better believe that they will have to work years before they'll see anything in my eyes but contempt. You can't just become anything virtuous - you have to work for it.

Quote:
Why not take people and things on their own merit and exercise an open mind.


Why not take your own advice?  :smile:

Merit is value, accept people for their actions.

"We are what we repeatedly do"
- Aristotle

Quote:
Your interpretation of "grizzly bear" is a culturally defined concept that you have associated with higher ideals involving the harshness and purity of nature, but in reality it is a non-poetic sentient creature that may decide that you taste good.


Bears are definetly associated with higher ideals. I was born in Novosibirsk, Russia - the "capital of Siberia", and the origin of Shamanism! I am no stranger to forests, including the Taiga.  I've been told many stories by my elders about how the bear is truly the keeper of the forest. For example, its no secret that bears love honey. However, they take a very rational aspect in acquiring this treat: A grizzly bear will wait until the bees have finished harvesting enough honey (he senses its ripeness with his nose) and then take enough so the bees will still have enough to survive. Unless he's woken from his winter slumber of course - in that case watch out - he will kill and eat everything in sight.

Quote:
A "child molester" or "serial killer" is also a similarly culturally defined concept with negative associations to you, but they are still dangerous animals in the same way as a grizzly bear. Remove the cultural perceptions and you have similarly unpredictable and dangerous animals. There is no difference.


A bear kills for purely pragmatic and understandable reasons. There are absolutely no utilitarian reasons why an innocent's life should be  destroyed. 

Quote:
I must note that when child moleters are babies they are probably cute as well...like the bear cubs.


That's why I put the disclaimer with the cub: They might look cute now, but in a little while, you might get mauled!  :wink:

Quote:
Note that I say preference because this is an individual thing...not a blanket generalization. I tend to stick with what is practical for me and me alone.


That is the exact purpose of discussion. Don Juan always considered Carlos' viewpoint futile. He didn't say: You can be rational while you go into the second attention. You either pick one or refute the other.

Quote:
At one point in the past I was a very angry and violent person who had rarely experienced happiness that was not materially motivated. Since I have adopted this view I have found myself to be much less aggressive and much more at peace with myself.


Only in exceptions does anger resolve anything. My late uncle told me one time that "People only get angry when they run out of rational explanations to form an argument". I'm glad your life is recovered for the better now, but the sky's the limit on how awesome this existence can be!

Quote:
This means that for me this is a practical way of life with value, but that is my preference. You are free to think differently.


There's nothing wrong with living for yourself. A lot of saints built cabins in the woods and did just that. But if you had something that helped your life tremendously, wouldn't you want to help others on this path that you found? I take a crusader's, a warrior's path on serving in what I feel is just. I don't back down on my morals and my clear consciousness brings me happiness and freedom.


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010001100100001001000101!

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Re: Becoming Offended [Re: Fospher]
    #6110173 -

I don't think that you will understand my position no matter how much I explain it, so I am not going to defend it further beyond this. Any value that you assign to an animal, person, or object is the result of your cultural programming filtering through your past experience. It is an illusion...an interpretation of your dream, and nothing more. Assigning importance to any one thing over another such as saying that bears are magical expressions of nature while child molesters are an affront to humanity is a purely arbitrary judgement and an expression of self importance. While it may serve you in some manner, you are basing these judgements on generalizations handed down to you by society. I am choosing a path where no black and white value judgements are made. Instead of reacting to my programming I am choosing to determine my own programming.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Becoming Offended [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6110749 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
I don't think that you will understand my position no matter how much I explain it, so I am not going to defend it further beyond this.


I diced and responded to every part of your post - I'm not your shrink and I'm here to present my ideas and absorb others'. Also, you don't need to defend anything. Present what you think and I will give you my retort. You may agree with me, or you may persist in discussion, trying to find out why my views are different from yours. A lot of times I will say something I personally dont agree with. I can entertain many ideas without accepting them. I play devil's advocate to generate a response or to test your premises. I'm not here to "understand positions" (whatever you meant by that), but to exchange ideas.

Quote:
I am choosing a path where no black and white value judgements are made. Instead of reacting to my programming I am choosing to determine my own programming.


Choosing how you get programmed or how society programs you still leaves you being programmed.


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010001100100001001000101!

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Re: Becoming Offended [Re: Fospher]
    #6111490 -

It is better to be a conscious slave than a happy one.

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Re: Becoming Offended [Re: Fospher]
    #6112220 -

"Choosing how you get programmed or how society programs you still leaves you being programmed."

There is a major difference between determining your own programs and blindly accepting those devised by others. One thing is fact...every aspect of self voluntary or not is a program.

"I diced and responded to every part of your post - I'm not your shrink and I'm here to present my ideas and absorb others'. Also, you don't need to defend anything. Present what you think and I will give you my retort."

I do not wish to repeat myself endlessly...and I am sure that this would benefit you in no way. No insult meant, but we have greatly divergent views that do not seem to be merging. As I said you are welcome to your views and welcome to stand by them.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Edited by Huehuecoyotl (09/28/06 07:05 PM)

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Re: Becoming Offended [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6112263 -

That statement is the whole sum of my point.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Becoming Offended [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6115199 -

When people are offended, they get defensive. If, for example, someone defended a particular religion, it is almost guaranteed that SOMEONE will take offense to it. It's an endless cycle whereby people overstep one another's boundaries and try to push each other back into place. In the big scheme of things, none of it matters. We are all one; boundaries are arbitrary and only harbor bad feelings.


--------------------
Here comes the sun, do n do do,
Here comes the sun, and I say,
It's alright...

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Re: Becoming Offended [Re: IamHungry]
    #6115397 -

In the Book "The Four Agreements" by Miguel Ruiz he explains that we are all reflections of light. Reflections of light and electrical impulses are all we perceive. The interpretation of what we perceive is when the perception is filtered through our system of judgment and our past experiences. The interpretation is based on assumptions and prejudices. This interpretation is the dream we create when we create our world.

Those who become offended choose to generate negative energy in the form of moral righteousness and indignation. When this energy is released it leaves us physically and mentally exhausted. One gets an affirmation of their prejudices and beliefs at the expense of a huge waste of personal power. It also leaves others feeling alienated. When one wastes personal power their capacity to exercise the will is diminished. In this way we diminish our capacity to create the world we desire. Becoming offended is a self defeating mechanism that is best dealt with by harmoniously undermining the system of morals instilled in us by our culture. We can then get down to creating our dream from what pleasures and empowers us...free of the outmoded morals and mores of our inherited programming. This is what I am shooting for at least...and falling ever short...but I will persist. I heard a song today that I had on my mp3 player that made this plain to me and brought me into understanding of how our system of judgement works against us.

"Standing by the highway
Suitcase by my side
No place I want to go
Just thought I'd catch a ride

Many people look my way
and many pass me by
In moments of reflection
I wonder why

To the thieves I am a bandit
The mothers think I'm a son
To the preachers I'm a sinner
Lord, I'm not the only one

To the sad one's I'm unhappy
To the losers I'm a fool
To the students I'm a teacher
With the teachers I'm in school

To the hobos I'm imprisoned
by everything I own
To the soldier I'm just someone else
dying to go home

The general sees a number
The politicians too
To my friends I'm just an equal
in this world

Magic Mirror
Won't you tell me please
Do I find myself
in anyone I see
Magic Mirror
if we only could
Try to see ourselves
as others would" -- Magic Mirror Leon Russell


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Becoming Offended [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6116363 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Right and wrong is inflexible...it is also defined purely by culture. I prefer the flexibility afforded buy a non-black and white viewpoint. These judgments served us as children, but once one is an adult it is time to grow up and think for ones self.


how are right and wrong not flexible? I thought our ideas are in flux constantly. The human mind is so fickle that what you hold as true one day changes the next.

Its easy to say that you won't get offended, but does that really happen? maybe you don't physically act, but what about your mind. If you have to tell your mind not to get offended, then you have already been offended.

furthermore, because you have to train yourself to be a certain way, this means you disagree with the way you act now. This pertains to your idea of right and wrong. So you are using your morals, your definition of mental ethics, to try to change your mind to act a certain way.

This reminds me of certain thought loops I'd get while on acid. Its like you are trying to use the tool to change the tool...you know what I mean? Its akin to the dog who chases its own tail, and like on acid, unless you stop, you will continue to chase, which will only perpetuate what you are trying to do stop in the first place.

I'm not criticizing or anything, I totally respect what you are doing, but I think the process needs to be observed.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: Becoming Offended [Re: kaiowas]
    #6116842 -

"how are right and wrong not flexible? I thought our ideas are in flux constantly. The human mind is so fickle that what you hold as true one day changes the next."

There are practical reasons for many of the things we do. I do not murder others at random based on who I do not like, for example, because I do not want to be so out of harmony with my fellow man, I do not want to be arrested, confined or executed, etc... These are all practical reasons for not engaging in this behavior. Why do I need right and wrong when I have practical reasons. In our society so many things are done or not done for no reason...tradition, taboo, or just because it is right or wrong. This is illogical. If no practical reason exists for not engaging in a behavior why judge it wrong? Laying a black and white moral code over our behavior is limiting, and serves no purpose. If I follow my heart and do what is practical why should I accept societal restrictions. In contrast there are many things that society endorses as "right" that I do not agree with, so I abstain from that behavior. This is what I am talking about. I am not abdicating common sense, but merely putting it into action.

"Its easy to say that you won't get offended"

Of course I still get offended, but I have vastly improved in this regard. I still got self importance fucking with me by all means. I have noticed that my energy for daily life has increased a lot. I noticed a change on the day I realized that when I was alone I was fine, but as soon as I had to deal with people I got irritable and tired quickly. When the people went away...so did the irritability. So, I decided to quit being attached to my preferences to the point that they became needs. I started to accept things as they were and judge a bit less. My energy level skyrocketed at this point. This tells me that I am seeing truth.

"this means you disagree with the way you act now. This pertains to your idea of right and wrong. So you are using your morals, your definition of mental ethics, to try to change your mind to act a certain way."

I am merely doing what is practical to increase my personal power.

"I'm not criticizing or anything, I totally respect what you are doing, but I think the process needs to be observed."

Since June I have been making note of my behaviors and emotions...just observing and noting. This is a process called stalking. You observe and become concious of your behaviors in a nonjudgemental way...as if you were studying the habits of an animal. This has caused involuntary change in many respects.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Becoming Offended [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6116863 -

*frames this reply and hangs it on the wall* :thumbup:

Your path has remarkable similarities to my own. :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Becoming Offended [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6116876 -

Great minds think alike.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Becoming Offended [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6116910 -

And why, might I ask, is that? That is, what variable is accountable? :grin:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Becoming Offended [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6116916 -

If one has acheived complete mastery of time, space, and matter...then certain conclusions are inescapable....wait a minute...you have transcended time, space, and matter haven't you?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Becoming Offended [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6116978 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
If one has acheived complete mastery of time, space, and matter...then certain conclusions are inescapable....wait a minute...you have transcended time, space, and matter haven't you?


:blush:

:lol:

The unmitigated light of reality has a tendency to dissolve any aspects of ourselves that obstruct our direct perception of reality, and from within, it feels a bit like transcendence. :cool:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Becoming Offended [Re: kaiowas]
    #6117563 -

If you want to conserve your energy, then make sure to breath. Take an upright posture against gravity. Take your time and be understanding of your actions. You can figure things out purposefully and with a flexible mindset. Simply be open to experience.

I was considering this and I came to the conclusion that judgement is natural. It's how we know what's right and wrong. Without judgement, we would not be able to understand how sadness can turn into happiness. We wouldn't be able to overcome all of our problems so readily because we wouldn't have hope. I know it's somewhat comforting to beleive that logic reigns supreme, but we have emotions and they are naturally going to be felt whether you deny them or not. I beleive that they are a great tool when you consider the dynamic balance of positive-negative and when you consider the fact that our feelings are truly purposeful and honest beyond our logical understanding at times. I beleive that you would be a fool to ignore your feelings. There is a reason that people talk about 'gut instinct' and 'heart'. There is a universal understanding of what's right and wrong. People get confused alot and live in fear. That is alright, though. We do not have all the answers all the time, yet we still know that what's important. Sometimes you simply have to trust that it will all work out. Sometimes you just have to love. In that respect, I totally understand your desire to skip some steps and simply get down to your instinctual understanding of things, but there is more to consider here than instincts. There is no equality unless we all try to help eachother out. It's not instincts that will make you compassionate and decide to trust somebody else to get into your car. It's when you judge him as a fellow man that you will decide whether or not he is willing to be helped. That is the first sign of respect and honesty and you go from there.

I beleive that you can attain peace. You can attain peace even in the most seemingly chaotic environment. It simply takes that grounded understanding. Be just as you wish to be, if only for a fleeting moment.


--------------------
Smoking my hobbit leaf...
Please keep in mind that I am just a human being. Please read my posts carefully and interpret their meaning for yourself.

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