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OfflineMrBump
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Beauty: Universal or Personal in judgement?
    #3838050 - 02/26/05 06:56 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

so, is a human's sense of judgement regarding another person's beauty a universal or personal thing? is it really in the eyes of the beholder?

i ask this b/c i have read studies where infants and babies seem to be drawn toward a more symetrical, more attractive stranger when forced to chose either by picture or IRL, and the babies cried more often when held by less atractive strangers when compared to being held by a person thought of as attractive. is there an inherent, ingrained sense of human attractiveness inside us from birth? if so, is there a biological purpose (evolution) to this?

also, i just read an article on MSN this week about how attractive and tall people tend to make more money over a lifetime than their shorter, less atractive counterparts...even when compared inside a specific industry or field.

also, when someone is famed to be into "fat chicks" or "big noses" or "bald guys" doesnt that catagorization of one's taste tend to make you think it deviates from "the norm" beauty wise? i mean, would you ever have to tell anyone,"yeah i like blonds w/ 36-24-36 curves..." or "i like tall dark and handsome men?" it almost sounds like a given to me that you would.

what do you think?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Beauty: Universal or Personal in judgement? [Re: MrBump]
    #3839375 - 02/27/05 12:28 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

It's a little bit of both. If we had a planet full of only those things we consider ugly, we would start to be able to see beauty in it, because that's what our brains are designed to do. I sometimes worry that the fashion industry has raised a lot of people's standards above what is realistic. Before mass media, people would judge beauty by the standards of wherever they lived. They would never see anyone like Angelina Jolie. They'd just know who the prettiest girl in their town was, and that would be the highest standard they might hold anyone to.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Beauty: Universal or Personal in judgement? [Re: MrBump]
    #3839501 - 02/27/05 01:02 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

thecornking said:
i ask this b/c i have read studies where infants and babies seem to be drawn toward a more symetrical, more attractive stranger when forced to chose either by picture or IRL, and the babies cried more often when held by less atractive strangers when compared to being held by a person thought of as attractive. is there an inherent, ingrained sense of human attractiveness inside us from birth? if so, is there a biological purpose (evolution) to this?




Interesting, and I have seen shows about symetry = attractiveness on the Discovery channel....  But the shows were always about finding a potential partner in attraction....  I am going to side with Paradigm.... 

Subjective:
I would be more able to find "logic" in that a child that would cry when held by an un-attractive stranger as having nothing to do with attractiveness at all (not as we know it as adults anyways)....  Perhaps the child would have a propencity to cry because the stranger holding the child did not have a likeness to the parents of the child....  Or perhaps the comparisons of symetrical features is done instinctually by the child, and that child would feel more comfortable in the arms of someone with the similar symetry of features to the likeness of the parents....

I guess there could be a test for this to see if it goes in reverse....  If a child with "un-attractive" parents was put into the arms of a person that had what we would consider an "attractiveness" in symetry of features, and that child was to cry, then it might proove the point of being a comfort for features that had a likeness to the parents....  If the child did not cry, I would come to think that it's crying would have something to do with the inherent insticts or similar mechanism of finding a partner in "judging" attraction/attractiveness in adulthood.... 


:sun:


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Beauty: Universal or Personal in judgement? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3839576 - 02/27/05 01:22 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I don't know this for a fact, but I feel sure that attractiveness is something that is mainly taught. Just like hatred. Put a child in a room with different races and he/she will play freely with them based mainly upon their personality. Only later when he/she is taught will they start the discrimination process.

A couple of years ago I was sitting in my local library reading the newspaper when a child of about eight or nine years old sat down on the futon next to me with a book in her hand. She began flipping through the book of pictures of faces quickly. Before turning each page she would look at the picture and say one of two things: "pretty!" or "dog ugly!". She went rapidfire through the entire book this way...pretty, pretty, dog ugly. There was little space between the time she would look at the picture and when she would make her judgement. Words cannot really express the sadness I felt watching her program herself in this way. As she dismissed the faces with "dog ugly" I saw what she could not: worlds being stripped away from her future by her rash judgements. Potential mates cast aside for nothing more than the sin of being born in a body deemed unattractive by society.

And so it goes..


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


Edited by Jellric (02/27/05 06:10 PM)


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Beauty: Universal or Personal in judgement? [Re: MrBump]
    #3839721 - 02/27/05 02:07 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

thecornking said:
i ask this b/c i have read studies where infants and babies seem to be drawn toward a more symetrical, more attractive stranger when forced to chose either by picture or IRL, and the babies cried more often when held by less atractive strangers when compared to being held by a person thought of as attractive.




I am always very skeptical of these kind of experiments. The person doing the studies are not EVER going to realy know why the babies are crying. The person doing the study will bring his/her own biases to the study.


I think it is a combination of personal judgement and genetics. A person who is more symetrical in the face (one side of the face is identical to the other) will be "more attractive" than one who is less symetrical. This is a "natural" attraction that may or may not have anything to do with "overall" beauty. Someone may have a perfectly aranged face but be grossly overweight bringing their "overall" beauty down a notch or two. That would be based on a persons biases.


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OfflineMrBump
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Re: Beauty: Universal or Personal in judgement? [Re: MrBump]
    #3840756 - 02/27/05 12:36 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

thanks for the responses everyone.

paradigm: mass media has created a global sense of beauty for sure. but i think the media has set the white, western judgement of beuaty as the standard the world must follow. this years miss universe pagent was won by a Turkish woman (i beleive?) and she had the looks of a south california movie actress.

phantomcat/niteowl: i have seen that Discovery channel series too. i really dont understand how symmetry = attractiveness tho. I mean i dont see anyone waking aroung looking like a subject of a Pable Picasso painting from his Cubist years  :smirk: can the human mind really calculate very minor facial features that are asymmetrical? both sides of my face look equal/symmetrical to me, but im no Jude Law.

true about the reasoning behind a babies crying too. maybe it has more to do with the size of the breasts the woman has that makes the baby cry or not.

jerrlic: very sad story indeed. no doubt young children are impressionable, but who teaches them of these standards. i would hope not the parents, its probalby all the TV kids watch...i never see a fat kid or plain looking girl even on PBS these days.
it s funny how you brought that up tho, as i remember having crushes on all the "cute" girls in my class going as far back as kindergarten. my parents were not superficial at all and they wouldnt let me watch much TV at that age. most boys that age arent even interested in girls...i wonder where i picked that up?


--------------------
If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all.

There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn.

Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Beauty: Universal or Personal in judgement? [Re: MrBump]
    #3842507 - 02/27/05 07:02 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I don't deny that media has helped shape our perception of beauty, but there are certain aspects of beauty which seem universal, even within the animal kingdom. Someone else brought up symmetry. I realize that no one appears extremely asymmetrical, but realize that our mind is highly attuned to subtleties in the face. Also, there's many different kinds of symmetry.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Beauty: Universal or Personal in judgement? [Re: MrBump]
    #3843601 - 02/27/05 10:21 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

thecornking said:
can the human mind really calculate very minor facial features that are asymmetrical? both sides of my face look equal/symmetrical to me, but im no Jude Law.




You might be surprised at how un-symetrical your face actually is....! 

1) Take a close up picture of your face, looking straight ahead, with an "even" expression on your face....

2) Now put that picture in the computer....

3) Now, take and erase the right half of the picture straight down the middle....  (as close as possible...)

4) Now mirror the image from the center point....

5) Now do the same thing to the left half of your face....

6) Now, compare all three images....


:::::giving you time to do this:::::

Not what you thought was it.....?    :shocked:
You will most likely see three different people within yourself....
(I would NOT do this while tripping, it *might* be kinda~ scary....!!!!)  :ooo:


:sun:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Beauty: Universal or Personal in judgement? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3844246 - 02/27/05 11:44 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

That is VERY true. The human face is not very symetrical when looked at this way. I have done it and it is quite startling.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Beauty: Universal or Personal in judgement? [Re: niteowl]
    #3848757 - 02/28/05 09:29 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

And then there are some in the persuit of "perfect symetry" with da~ $$$$$$....    :moneyeyes:  :smirk:




HHhhhhmmmmm....    Seems plausible.... 
The "Jackson" potatoe head, coming this Christmas to a store near you....!


ME....


:sun:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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