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Invisiblemoog
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Registered: 02/15/05
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Observation without judgement
    #4404747 - 07/14/05 06:52 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

It seems to be pretty hard for most people to observe something without forming an opinion about it, especially the more "important" events, like wars. Is it a bad thing to abstain from judgement on things? Should you always be able to say where you stand? Take for instance the recent bombings in London. What if you don't have any opinion on it whatsoever? Or if you find that to be impossible, would it be beneficial to keep your opinion on the matter in utmost secrecy and never hint it to anyone? I've often found that exchange of opinions and judgements leads to nothing but arguing ("debate") with no constructive resolution. What do you think about the notion of complete nuetrality? :wink:


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Observation without judgement [Re: moog]
    #4404881 - 07/14/05 07:25 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

to percieve something is to judge it.

to call it an it, is a judgement.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Observation without judgement [Re: BleaK]
    #4404925 - 07/14/05 07:37 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

yes, actually you are right, bleak

to perceive and separate any thing from the stream is already part of the process of judgement, or associative thought.

many are striving to get into the stream, and rightly so.

also, it is an intelligent goal to be able to resolve moral issues and this takes stepping out of the stream and looking at one's matrix, and ones's social and political position too.

after all, when you spend the effort to make a judgement, it may as well be intelligent and germaine.

I like to spend as much time as possible immersed in something that is ecstatic - mostly without judgement...

if that could be 1 day out of seven - it would truly be amazing.
I spread it out though, & maybe it adds up to nearly one hour out of 24 maybe 2 or 3 if some little judgement is allowed in the assessement: hey 3 hours out of 24 is almost like a sabbath!


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Observation without judgement [Re: BleaK]
    #4405115 - 07/14/05 08:57 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"to percieve something is to judge it."

No. Here's the first definition of judge according to dictionary.com:
To form an opinion or estimation of after careful consideration

Note the bold words. We don't make a judgement until we give something due consideration. Perception is not judging. You might be confusing judgement with reaction. If I look at a house that I find to be ugly, the judgement of its aesthetics doesn't come to mind immediately. It comes a few seconds later, after my brain has had time to process it in its entirety.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Observation without judgement [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4405127 - 07/14/05 09:01 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"to perceive and separate any thing from the stream is already part of the process of judgement, or associative thought."

Again I completely disagree. You're confusing judgement with discernment. They're very different things. For example when I look at two birds and see them as different types of species, that is discernment, not judgement.

The bottom line is, discernment his the result of observations and perception. Judgement results from internal bias and opinion.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Observation without judgement [Re: moog]
    #4405535 - 07/14/05 10:20 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

true - I have a friend who is a judge.
what he does goes far beyond discernment.

I suppose in the extent that it affects peoples lives, judgement can relate to more or less associative considerations of separate issues.

but moog (great name), isn't this about something that goes beyond the mere definition of words, and into the spirit that these words can be infused with?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Observation without judgement [Re: moog]
    #4405611 - 07/14/05 10:34 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

My weakness in this area is one of my fatal flaws.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Observation without judgement [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4405644 - 07/14/05 10:39 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, I didn't mean to tear into your and Bleak's responses. I just wanted to make sure we were all thinking about the same meaning of the word judgement, so we could be on the same page.

But let's just forget the word 'judge' for a minute completely... Is it possible to observe and perceive something without have a bias toward it? Can you listen to a song without liking or disliking it? From my own experience it seems like only the conscious mind makes opinions. The subconscious just seems to accept things and just kinda goes with the flow. It seems like sometimes the subconsious mind makes judgements in the form of reactions, but these seem to only be programmed first by the conscious mind, and can/must be unprogrammed by the conscious mind. Like, you can be programmed to react to a cloudy day with the sentiment of "what a shitty day!" and a sunny day with "what a beautiful day!" It's our feelings, rather than the logical mind, that play a big part in this, too.

What I want to know is, is it more beneficial to embrace our likes and dislikes, or should we strive to be as nuetral and objective as possible?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Observation without judgement [Re: moog]
    #4405816 - 07/14/05 11:25 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

now you are getting somewhere.
yes embrace the likes and dislikes, naturally
and
by sometimes practicing a kind of "unnatural" non-reacting, non-judgementing, non-separating into objects,
reach an ecstatic immersion in the stream which is a much bigger embracing or uninion of lovers than the dualistical kind.

oddly one goes away to come back in as it were.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Observation without judgement [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4405938 - 07/14/05 11:51 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

a person confides in you; is it possible to respond without judging them? yes if you respect that person's life process and treat the problem they face as a piece of that process
in a way judging the process itself as good
that's not really judging, but it does mean having values


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Observation without judgement [Re: moog]
    #4406768 - 07/15/05 04:27 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"is it more beneficial to embrace our likes and dislikes, or should we strive to be as nuetral and objective as possible?"

when you say embrace, do you mean to not question our thoughts?  to not judge our judgements  :grin:

when you speak of beneficial, are you referring to self benefit or the benefits of others?

say you look at that house and said to yourself "what an ugly house" if you let the thought become an emotion and react in a negative way, then I think there's good reason to judge. 

when we talk of neutrality, are we speaking of emotions or just pure thought?

I hope I'm not being confusing hehe  :grin:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Observation without judgement [Re: kaiowas]
    #4408637 - 07/15/05 06:52 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I'm talking about judgement in terms of emotions and "jumping the gun" instead of just sitting back and observing without having an opinion about something. I mean, why do I "have to" have an opinion about the war in Iraq? What if I just want to examine all sides of an issue and just say, "ok, that's how it is", without ever coming out with my idea of what's right or wrong or good or bad? If you saw an ant crawling on the ground would you sit there hoping it goes one way or the other? No, you don't give a shit. You just watch and observe and generally don't care. Why can't we apply this to "bigger" things?

"when you speak of beneficial, are you referring to self benefit or the benefits of others?"

Either, or. Aren't they the same thing? :wink:


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Observation without judgement [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4408658 - 07/15/05 06:57 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"a person confides in you; is it possible to respond without judging them?"

I think so... if you just listen, without giving your opinion. Of course, if they're confiding in you they're probably asking for your opinion anyway, so you're kinda stuck.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Observation without judgement [Re: moog]
    #4410600 - 07/16/05 03:28 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

i dunno about that
usually when a friend confides in me for example s/he won't be looking for judgment- you're a good/bad person because of this
if it's a self-esteem issue then saying 'well i think you're a great person because of x y z' may make someone feel better i suppose
i believe that people talking about their feelings/experiences is a positive problem-solving process in itself
and that facilitating that is like helping a person help themself
so that's values, but not judgment


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Observation without judgement [Re: moog]
    #4410618 - 07/16/05 03:31 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

" If you saw an ant crawling on the ground would you sit there hoping it goes one way or the other? No, you don't give a shit. You just watch and observe and generally don't care. Why can't we apply this to "bigger" things?"

how does a person learn things without positive&negative reinforcement / reward & punishment?

in other words everything we learn has meaning for us

even an ant crawling has meaning for us
that meaning may be virtually insignificant or subconscious
but nevertheless present


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Observation without judgement [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4410698 - 07/16/05 03:52 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Judgement is primarely about good and bad and that is primarily about 'it hurts me' or 'it helps me'.
No-judgement may be dangerous for big events (for example 'war'), if you don't want some crazy fool bomb down your country and destroy your (innocent) life, because of, let's say some hidden uranium in your lands mountains.
Without judgement, you will not be able to wounder, why nobody will help you, if the crazy leader is on your contries turn.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Observation without judgement [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4410920 - 07/16/05 07:57 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

you use one judgement to balance the impact of another


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Observation without judgement [Re: moog]
    #4411104 - 07/16/05 10:31 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

If you saw an ant crawling on the ground would you sit there hoping it goes one way or the other? No, you don't give a shit. You just watch and observe and generally don't care. Why can't we apply this to "bigger" things?

Ants are a great example of something we judge depending on where we see them and how they affect us. The ants stay the same, but our judgements change.

If we see the ants on the sidewalk downtown, we are neutral to perhaps slightly positive in that we may avoid stepping on the ants.

If we see the ants on our kitchen counter, we likely judge the "pest" ants much more harshly and crush them like the bugs they are, or spray them with Raid Ant Killer.

Yesterday I was sitting on the ground outside of my house digging up a sewer pipe when suddenly I felt pain and looked down to see a few hundred angry ants swarming my body in full protect colony attack mode. I went into immediate judgement - FUCKING ANTS!!!

In the classroom in elementary school, and later as a present I got an ant farm. What fun. Those were good ants indeed. Aren't ants wonderful and fascinating creatures of God?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (07/16/05 10:34 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Observation without judgement [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4411173 - 07/16/05 11:07 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

exactly the problem
how yould you know which were the good ants and which were the bad ants at first glance?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Observation without judgement [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4411244 - 07/16/05 11:44 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Body language.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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