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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Seuss]
    #5905786 -

Seuss said:
> 5000 years of anecdotal evidence is pretty well tested.
Not at all. How long did people believe the earth was flat before it was shown otherwise?


They had no results to prove the earth one way or the other. It was just an assumption. These 5000 years of history are based on reliable, reproducible observation. That's science. If you ate some plant and it made your heart rate increase for 4 hours. Then a week later you ate it again and it did the same. Then someone else ate it and it did the same. And then someone else, and so on. Wouldn't you believe that that plant caused an increase in heart rate?

Science: the state of knowing. knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding

Chinese Medicine is just like that yet a million fold in complexity. There are dozens of different types of pulses which all indicate various states of various organs in the body. the tongue is an indicator, the appearance of the skin, the eyes, the sound of the voice, and the experience of the patient, do they feel hot/cold, tired, etc. All these factors and their changes are reproducible, and they all indicate the same thing in all patients. It is real knowledge. It is real science. It is NOT wishful thinking, superstition or whatever else you want to call it.

I think western science in combination with these principles can take health care to a new level. We don't have to use herbs. We could use chemical extractions with the same holistic guideline. But it seems like the US will be the last country to adopt this kind of thinking. So the ignorance continues, at least here anyway.


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Viveka]
    #5905800 -

Viveka said:
If you get in a car crash, break a limb, bleed internally or something immediately traumatic and visceral like that, you'd surely want to have access to the best "western medicine".  But for any sort of chronic problem that isn't life-threatening, western doctors are basically clueless.


:thumbup:

And I would say not even "life threatening", but "immediately life threatening".  Most if not all chronic problems are a mystery to western medicine.  And things like headaches or canker sores, forget about it.


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Wasteland]
    #5906394 -

Wasteland said:
And of course he would think chemotherapy almost killed him, that shit is rough (I have a few friends going through it). Heavy doses of radiation and chemical boosting leaves you feeling tired and in pain.


Of course it almost killed him. Heavy doses of radiation and chemical boosting probably harm the body, which is exactly why they utilize such. Its a game of finding out who blinks first, the body, or cancer... isn't it?

Forced radiation, how not surprising. :rolleyes:

While we're at it, let's chug down some fucking flouride, eh?

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: tallgreen]
    #5908048 -

Quote:
These 5000 years of history are based on reliable, reproducible observation. That's science.


No, thats 5000 years of observation. There is a big difference.

Quote:
Then a week later you ate it again and it did the same. Then someone else ate it and it did the same. And then someone else, and so on. Wouldn't you believe that that plant caused an increase in heart rate?


Nope, I wouldn't believe that the plant caused an increase in heart rate, but then I am a scientist. I would suspect that a chemical present within the plant may be the cause of the increased heart rate. However, I would recognize that it could be ant droppings on the plant, or something else that I haven't thought of, that is causing the reaction, rather than the plant itself.

> Science: the state of knowing. knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding

Scientific method: principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses

The scientific method facilitates science. You are ignoring the method of science and claiming that observations equal science. This is simply not true. Observation, by itself, is not enough to reach a sound, scientific, conclusion.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Viveka]
    #5908396 -

:thumbup:  Great post.

"If you don't eat well, you're not going to feel well."

To me, this about sums it up.  And when you don't feel well, you are likely getting sicker.  Pretty basic but basically ignored by many people as you point out.

It's like the parent(s) you see at the store buying all the sugar foods, the real crap, and they have the zombie kids with them who are on the Ritalin to control their hyper behavior not from ADHD but from eating all that crap.  The problem is, the TV told them they were cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs and they are.

A few people on here have touted the statistics that modern medicine has "increased the average lifespan" over the last "x" years and that "the average lifespan" continues to increase.  I agree with the statistics but believe we are fast approaching a tipping point where the average lifespan will level out and then start to decrease. 

The average lifespan has increased over the past 100 years largely because of vast improvements in childbirth death rates and saving premature babies and kids not dying from pneumonia at age 2.  We live (largely) in houses that are an even temperature because of insulation and heat pumps/AC that 100 years ago wasn't available. We have the trauma and intensive care facilities with medical staffs that will put us back together versus some guy with a saw hacking off a gangrenous leg.  We have life saving machines that will breathe for us, beat our hearts, filter our kidneys.  We can even get a nice "new" kidney, liver, or heart.

The reason I believe we are reaching the tipping point is that although the advances of modern medicine in terms of equipment and procedures and medications have improved things, the past 100 years have also brought on some majorly negative things that will start to be reducing the average lifespan in the near future.

1.  Air and water pollution, chemicals of all kinds such as DDTs PCBs
    chlorine in the water, flouride for our teeth, it's all gonna
    kill us slowly and surely it isn't good to be drinking bleach even
    at low levels.

2.  Food.  McDonald's, Burger King, Pizza Hut, Taco Bell, KFC, Arby's,
    Wendy's, Stuckey's, Denny's.  Soda, french fries, double cheese
    double meat hold the pickle hold the lettuce just stack it up.

3.  Stress, stress, stress.

4.  Radiation.  Microwaves, high tension wires, nuclear fallout, cell
    phones plugged up to your ear so tight it makes it red.

5.  Various drugs, prescription or otherwise whether used or abused.

My has gotten very "sick" over the past 10 years and it is my firm belief that most of it has to do with the various prescription  medication the various specialists have used to "treat" each and every last symptom.  They prescribe medications completely contraindicated for him based on his other conditions, his age, etc.  One idiot doctor prescribed glucophage for him for his diabetes that insulin had been working fine for.  It made him very ill.  Then, the same doctor 3 months later said "well let's try that glucophage again" so my dad took it and this time it almost killed him.  He's lucky he has a strong heart.

The wierd thing is that my dad has a PhD and is supposedly concerned about what he puts into his body yet trusts doctors and drugs enough to do exactly what they tell him without question.  I have struggled like hell to try to inject a little second opinion let's Google the drug first before you take it attitude and it's been helping but not enough.

Phuck doctors, phuck big pharma, do your own research and then get a second opinion.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

Edited by LunarEclipse (07/28/06 10:00 AM)

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5908558 -

Both established western medicine, and so-called "alternative medicine" have probed the issue of human health from their respective paradigm, using the instrumentation and knowledge available to them at the time.

The Western paradigm looks upon the world as if it were a machine; a system of distinct parts which operate together to produce an organized, but intellectually and spiritually dead phenomenon. We can see how western medicine operates in sync with this outlook. In western medicine, we treat the body as a machine, like an automobile. If something has gone wrong, way pay very little attention to the systemic causes of the problem, and instead set about the business of pouring engineered chemicals into the body, or opening it up and replacing whatever part is malfunctioning.

Other systems of medicine are borne from different worldviews. For example, the ancient Chinese looked upon the world as if it were an organism, alive and deeply interconnected. We can see that the Chinese approached the issue of medicine from this viewpoint. The East Indian perspective is taken throught the lense of cause and effect, with an understanding that any observed phenomenon arises as the effect of previous phenmonon interacting in harmony. From this point of view they developed a system of medicine which had it's emphasis on probing the root causes of a medical problem before issuing any kind of treatment. Both the Chinese and East Indian systems of medicine have had remarkable success, and are still valued and practised in spite of the overwhelming dominance of the western view.

It's popular belief in the world today that the western paradigm, and the medical and scientific ideas which flow from it, are the more correct ones. This is true simply because the western view is the most heavily articulated and widely practised paradigm in the world today. Ironically, it is remarkably unscientific to accept anything as correct simply because many people have decided it's correct.

Speaking personally, I feel that the western mechanical paradigm is choking the life out of the planet, and that it is draining the wonder and beauty out of every issue it explores. I feel that it's a paradigm which needs to be abandoned thoroughly, and as rapidly as possible, if we are interested in our own survival. Given that they are in the process of destroying the world, no, I am not inclined to trust scientists and doctors at all.

To make matters worse, the state has taken it upon itself to legislate what forms of medicine people wish to employ for their own wellbeing. Chemotherapy is a highly toxic cocktail of many radioactive isotopes, given in precise doses which are designed to kill the ailing cells whilst only bringing the healthy cells to the brink of death but not beyond. How absurd! Surely a person has the right to refuse such treatment and pursue other avenues. The mere fact that the state has attempted to overrule the judgement of an individual with differing perspective is testament to the dangerous dominance of the western paradigm, and should cause us to call in to question it's validity and usefulness.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Seuss]
    #5908675 -

Seuss said:
Scientific method: principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses

The scientific method facilitates science. You are ignoring the method of science and claiming that observations equal science. This is simply not true. Observation, by itself, is not enough to reach a sound, scientific, conclusion.


I am not saying observation by itself equals science. I saw that definition as well. You are assuming TCM does not meet the criteria of scientific method, it does. Refer to my previous link to amazon.com. They provide a preview of that book which you can read for some initial understanding of TCM. I would bet cash money that TCM is scientific in it's fundamentals. It IS a systematic pursuit of knowledge, it DOES collect data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses. It seems you don't know enough about TCM to assert that it doesn't, otherwise you wouldn't have done so.

That leaf example. Sure it could have been ant droppings, that would be discovered (same plant grown indoors, etc.), as the methods are scientific. A chemical within the plant? Of course, it's all chemicals, why complicate the issue? They tried to take THC out of weed to make Marinol and it doesn't work as well Maurijuana. Plants are vastly complex(THC,CBN,CBD, and 400 others), and those subtle complexities have been mapped and charted by TCM, why mess with harmony?

I'm not knocking modern research. There is a book I want to buy called "The Pharmacology of Chinese Herbs", it discusses the chemical components and their actions of over 400 Chinese herbs. But that kind of knowledge is young and under developed. That kind of science is too immature to be used with certainty and predictability, let alone the interactions between these isolated chemicals.

Keep in mind, per the definitions of science and scientific method, science does not have to use knowledge of the table of elements, it does not have to understand cellular biology, or anything on a microscopic level. It just needs to fall within the criteria of those definitions, which TCM does.

Holistic medicine is the method of treating the body as a interconnected organism, rather than a pile of symptoms and conditions each to be addressed individually. There is nothing wrong with the methods of western medical science, just the paradigm through which results are pursued.


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5908703 -

LunarEclipse said:
The wierd thing is that my dad has a PhD and is supposedly concerned about what he puts into his body yet trusts doctors and drugs enough to do exactly what they tell him without question. I have struggled like hell to try to inject a little second opinion let's Google the drug first before you take it attitude and it's been helping but not enough.



That's sad. You would think someone with a PhD would feel like they could educate themselves to a professional level on anything. That just shows how brainwashed our nation is regarding health. Even our "experts" are mislead. I don't blame anyone in particular, even though there are obviously contributing parties. It's just sad.


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: tallgreen]
    #5908749 -

I think because he was/is meticulous and professional and thorough that he expects others to be the same.  Or maybe it was growing up in the "do as you are told" era he did.  Or maybe people just place too much trust in scientists and doctors...

(Did you like how I ended with the post title?)  :wink:


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5908867 -

LunarEclipse said:
I think because he was/is meticulous and professional and thorough that he expects others to be the same.  Or maybe it was growing up in the "do as you are told" era he did.  Or maybe people just place too much trust in scientists and doctors...

(Did you like how I ended with the post title?)  :wink:


Yeah nice one.  I'm sure it's all of the above.  My dad was similar with his prostate cancer.  He went along with the removal of the prostate, but then when they suggested hormone therapy he took my advice and started seeing a Chinese oncologist (PhD) who reverted back to practicing traditional Chinese medicine.  He knew the hormone therapy was bogus cause it made his father's life miserable, and he didn't want to have the same problems.  After changing his diet and taking herbal prescriptions each day he has never felt better in his entire life!  He remarks about how good he feels all the time.  Also, the Chinese oncologist told me about how American studies are often biased, so he ignores them and only pays attention to European studies.  Like how PSA, the typical indicator for the state of prostate cancer is inaccurate, because it is not only a measure of antigens, but also of antibodies, something that could indicate the opposite of what his American doctor was saying.


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles

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