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SneezingPenis
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Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors?
#5900701 - 07/26/06 12:41 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I was going to post this in the politics forum, but I wanted to take this on a different angle.
Right now, there is a story in the news which deals with a 15 year old (or so) who has hotchkins disease. He has tried chemotherapy once, and feels that it almost killed him.
Now he wishes to try holistic remedies, and his parents back him up 100%. His name is "Starchild" i believe, so you can imagine how hippie his parents are.
Not that the social status of his parents matters.
So, now, the state he lives in, has ORDERED him to get chemotherapy treatment. Luckily, his lawyer has managed to get this delayed, but now THE ISSUE IS GOING TO TRIAL!
Where does the state get off thinking it can control choice that much? Here is a situation where no one is being hurt, the child isn't being neglected, the parents are good parents. Why does the state feel the need to step in?
ah! here is the answer: doctors say so.
hm..... granted, doctors and advanced technology/studies have helped society and humanity extend and prolong miserable lives, and on a very outside chance they have been able to actually improve the quality of life and wellbeing.... but where do we draw the line? can anyone here say that modern doctors are 100% correct about everything? is their diagnosis and opinion flawless?
I don't mean just one doctor, I mean the entire medical profession.... can we really put so much trust into their "professional" advice that we would remove our personal choice or path to recovery?
just remember how often the medical field has been, and continues to be, wrong: from drilling holes in peoples heads for headaches to heart-attack inciting drugs.
what do you think would happen if this kid chose not to seek any form of remedy? would there still be a problem? Do you think, that just maybe, this is an offensive strike against holistic remedies, hosted by medical lobbyists?
Edited by psilocyberin (07/26/06 12:42 AM)
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demiu5
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5901139 - 07/26/06 05:40 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I would say yes, too much trust is placed in doctors definitely, and probably too much in scientists. We are on this never-ending path to "more" and "better", and these are the people who can and will get us most of the way. Thanks, but let me off while I still can.
It just about killed me to go to the student nursing center two weeks ago. I had some, virus or sinus infection, I don't know. I took some pills which were nothing more than a prescribed combination of two OTC brand "medications". I don't go to doctors (of any type anymore) unless it is absolutely necessary or can't get my family off my back.
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
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Wasteland
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: demiu5]
#5901149 - 07/26/06 05:45 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't think we place too much trust in doctors and scientists, because both have established reliable studies in health and medicine, and are frequently backed up by peer-reviewed journals and experiments.
We do, however, place a significant and normally unfounded trust in medications. Too often lazy doctors just shove patients on the easiest and most common prescription.
And of course he would think chemotherapy almost killed him, that shit is rough (I have a few friends going through it). Heavy doses of radiation and chemical boosting leaves you feeling tired and in pain.
But, it helps millions.
-------------------- The Mad Shroomer said: People are always promising the apocalypse. They never deliver.
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Akamatsu
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: demiu5]
#5901156 - 07/26/06 05:49 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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To a certain degree, but remember medicine is the way it is for a reason. Everything is thoroughly tested, especially when it comes to something as serious as kemo. Herbal medicine is still largely untested, and more often then not has nothing more then a placebo effect.
Is cancer something you really want to gamble with?
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kotik
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Akamatsu]
#5901237 - 07/26/06 06:44 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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"we" do, but "I" don't (in response to topic)
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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it stars saddam
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5901458 - 07/26/06 09:37 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Doctors are almost as unreliable as holistic medicine.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: kotik] 1
#5901477 - 07/26/06 09:47 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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It amazes me that somebody will doubt a board certified medical professional while trusting some random yoyo that claims to have mystical healing powers or knowledge of herbs that will cure illness. I'm not claiming that all medical professionals are good, nor am I claimnig that there aren't any medicines in nature that have yet to be discovered by modern science/medicine. I am faulting those that recommend the hedge doctor, faith healer, etc, over the board certified medical professional.
On a side note, I feel the courts have no place sticking their fingers into the running of a family. If a family wants to try and win the darwin award by sending their children to a witch docter, then by all means...
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Akamatsu]
#5901495 - 07/26/06 09:59 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poster: Akamatsu Subject: Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors?
To a certain degree, but remember medicine is the way it is for a reason. Everything is thoroughly tested, especially when it comes to something as serious as kemo. Herbal medicine is still largely untested, and more often then not has nothing more then a placebo effect.
Is cancer something you really want to gamble with?
Yes, modern medicine is what it is for many reasons. Greed of the doctors and pharmaceutical companies resulting in massive overprescription of often contraindicated drugs, and widespread medicare and insurance abuses from the continued greed.
The current FDA new drug review system where the pharmaceutical companies pay for the review is a sham. Honest researchers who have concerns about the serious side effects of various drugs routinely have pressure put on them by FDA management to tow the line and approve the drug anyway. Some of the researchers have even been fired for trying to to an honest job and either not approve a particular medication with life threatening side effects or at the least to note those side effects. Look into Phen-fen which was approved by the FDA in the U.S. even after serious heart problems with it were occuring in Europe.
Lipitor and the cholesterol reducing drugs IMO are a ticking time bomb. The side effects of nerve damage and resulting muscle weakness are so severe in many that they have willingly discontinued the drugs on their own volition. Yet, the drug companies have been able to call such side effects "rare".
As for herbal medications vs. prescription drugs, the fact is that a huge number of medications are the result of refining a plant that the shamans in the rain forest have known about for centuries to cure x condition into a pill. Because the shaman culture is fading out, the drug companies have lost much of that resource in "finding" new drugs.
The misuse of antibiotics by doctors who prescribe them for what likely is a viral infection and therefore the antibiotic is useless to attack has resulted in highly antibiotic resistant bacteria that in some cases have become resistant to ALL current antibiotics including Vancomycin.
The forcing of any parent by the state to treat their children's disease in a particular manner is particularly disturbing to me. For many cancers, current chemotherapy treatment is not effective in curing the cancer or increasing the patient's life expectency. Worse, chemotherapy in most cases is quite painful and debilitating to the patient. Would you want your child to be forced by the state to suffer with not only an incurable terminal cancer but the additional suffering brought about by an ineffective painful treatment? Also, will the state be paying for this forced treatment? If they are not, will the state force the parents to pay for the treatment and arrest them or incarcerate them if they do not?
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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tallgreen
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Akamatsu]
#5901504 - 07/26/06 10:02 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Akamatsu said: Herbal medicine is still largely untested, and more often then not has nothing more then a placebo effect.
Is cancer something you really want to gamble with?
5000 years of anecdotal evidence is pretty well tested. That's how long chinese herbal medicine has been around. And it's not faith healing or spiritually guided like most people think, it's science. It's just not western science based on western chemistry and biology. If you don't think it's scientific you either don't know anything about traditional chinese medicine or you don't know the definition of science. TCM is logical science. It has helped me with migraines, my mother with skin problems and menopause, and my father with cancer. Western scientists are mislead by corporate interest and narrow visioned research. Most western treatments focus on symptoms. Cancer is a symptom. In order to heal someone you need to understand an underlying mechanism of disease. This is something western medicine is clueless about, and it's what TCM is all about.
Edit: I felt I should mention I think most herbal treatments in the USA are uninformed. They are used just like pharmiceuticals which creates no benefit. Herbs are not effective because they are "natural". If you are going to a take one herb for this or another for that, you might as well take western drugs.
-------------------- Nothing you can know that isn't known. Nothing you can see that isn't shown. Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. It's easy. All you need is love. - The Beatles
Edited by tallgreen (07/26/06 10:12 AM)
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Cracka_X
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5901513 - 07/26/06 10:11 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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wow that's wild. I can't believe the state would come in and do something like that.
the AMA has gotten pretty out of control and there's a lot that the chinese have to offer... Too bad for communism to wipe out a great generation that would've tremendously contributed to the practice of chinese medicine.
Quote:
In order to heal someone you need to understand an underlying mechanism of disease. This is something western medicine is clueless about, and it's what TCM is all about.
you can't say something like that referring to western medicine as a bunch of idiots.
Ultimately, you have to figure out who is funding what. The prescription companies. There are many plausible cures that doctors have sitting in their file cabinet because the schools they research for are funded by certain prescription companies and if you don't research what they want then you're out of a job.
you can't put a patent on an herb but you can make a synthetic chemical that is a very small fraction of the potency of that herb and sell it for a fortune... This is capitalism, not Chinese medicine vs western medicine.
-------------------- The best way to live is to be like water For water benefits all things and goes against none of them It provides for all people and even cleanses those places a man is loath to go In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
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tallgreen
chillin like avillain

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Cracka_X]
#5901533 - 07/26/06 10:20 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cracka_X said: you can't put a patent on an herb but you can make a synthetic chemical that is a very small fraction of the potency of that herb and sell it for a fortune... This is capitalism, not Chinese medicine vs western medicine.
My point is that people are looking for a "cure", and that it doesn't work that way. We are not perfect machines that gets an occasional wrench on the gears. Disease arises because of causes(Edit: causes being general dysfunction in the body, not pathogenic). Unless you work with the cause you will never control the disease. Finding a single chemical or an herb to cure a disease is impossible. It is much more complex than that particular problem the patient and doctor are concerned about. When someone has cancer it is related to their entire body, all parts, not just the cancerous cells running rampant.
So you are right, capitalism is the direct culprit here, but I'm taking another step back and saying, the treatment is not a good way of doing things anyway. It's ignorance upon ignorance. I guess I'm responding to people thinking herbal medicine is completely BS.
-------------------- Nothing you can know that isn't known. Nothing you can see that isn't shown. Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. It's easy. All you need is love. - The Beatles
Edited by tallgreen (07/26/06 10:22 AM)
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Cracka_X
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: tallgreen]
#5901619 - 07/26/06 10:59 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I was going to edit my post but forgot about it.
I agree with you that a problem should be looked at as a whole... or holistic medicine.
This may not be cancer but I remember having some agonizing muscle pain in my back. I had the trainers look at it and they gave massages which were temperary relief and ice and stim, which I think are bullshit for all the school they went through. My coach, who is the most awesome coach in the world and has opened my eyes to so many things, works on me but directs a lot of attention to places other than where the pain is. I don't have anymore pain and my body is doing extremely well. I've liked this "ART" Active Release Therapy and holistic approach to the body so much that I want to become an Osteopath.... a DO instead of an MD but they focus more on a holistic approach to medicine.
But yes, we're(AMA) trying to find a cure when that cure doesn't really do anything but appease the pain and cause a dramatic imbalance in the body.
-------------------- The best way to live is to be like water For water benefits all things and goes against none of them It provides for all people and even cleanses those places a man is loath to go In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
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tallgreen
chillin like avillain

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Cracka_X]
#5901649 - 07/26/06 11:11 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm glad you see my point. I'm used to people shunning my perspective, but I try anyway hoping people will respond with awareness as you have. If you're interested, check out "The web that has no weaver: understanding chinese medicine". It gives a great description of what chinese medicine is from a western perspective, it opened my eyes to that world. A holistic way of thinking has helped me and my whole family. I still use western pharmaceuticals. Ibuprofen is a god send for pain when you need relief within the hour. And antibiotics save lives. But TCM is a stepping stone to optimal health. The book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0809228...6671110?ie=UTF8
-------------------- Nothing you can know that isn't known. Nothing you can see that isn't shown. Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. It's easy. All you need is love. - The Beatles
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tallgreen
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: tallgreen]
#5901756 - 07/26/06 11:58 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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The order has been lifted. http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2006/07/25/ap2903291.html
"A social worker asked a juvenile court judge to require the teen to continue conventional treatment.."
Someone thought they were doing the right thing.
-------------------- Nothing you can know that isn't known. Nothing you can see that isn't shown. Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. It's easy. All you need is love. - The Beatles
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Seuss]
#5902278 - 07/26/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: It amazes me that somebody will doubt a board certified medical professional while trusting some random yoyo that claims to have mystical healing powers or knowledge of herbs that will cure illness. I'm not claiming that all medical professionals are good, nor am I claimnig that there aren't any medicines in nature that have yet to be discovered by modern science/medicine. I am faulting those that recommend the hedge doctor, faith healer, etc, over the board certified medical professional.
in response to this post, and some of the other ones: I am not advocating holistic medicine, nor am i making a judgement call between holistic and western medicinal practices. I am glad to see that we are all on the same page about reserving the freedom of choice and not thinking forcible radiation treatment is in any way a sane action.
But what does Board certified really mean? In the last 50 years what advances have been truly revolutionary in regards to medicine? Basically, since penicillin, there has been nothing which truly alleves a symptom without immense adverse reactions.
Western medicine has made leaps and bounds in life extension, to the point where we can choose to sustain textbook "life" in a lump of meat and tissue, but I have seen no advancements in the general improvement of health and wellbeing, on any front of the medical field.
Frankly, I don't see where the medical community has scientifically proven to improve the quality of life in such a way as to overshadow the holistic community.
Basically, this kid has made a choice of quality of life than quantity of life, which is something I think Western Medicine has completely ignored.
"Um... Yes, we see that 49 out of 67 patients no longer suffered from symptom X with the help of Drug Z, and 47 of those 49 patients have reported bouts of gastrointestinal discomfort".......
well congratulations Western Medicine, you have succesfully relocated pain and misery to another part of the body.
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trendal
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5902417 - 07/26/06 04:59 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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For anyone who thinks they/we would be better off without "modern medicine"......well obviously you haven't read any history lately!
The general quality of human life, at least in the first world countries, has been steadily rising for the past thousand years. The advances we have made in the last hundred years alone far outstrip everything humans have come up with in the past 10,000 years. If there is anyone who, sitting in a warm (or cool, if you have that A/C on) room and typing on a computer, thinks they would be better off living 300 years ago...you're just plain nuts. Life was short, brutal, and FULL of work (no such thing as a vacation when you work 24/7 just to feed yourself).
Enjoy living past 40? Thank modern medicine...
Enjoy having a low infant mortality rate? Thank modern medicine...(well over 1/10 children used to die in the first year of life...today that number is less than 1/100)
Or do you enjoy having your wife actually live through the process of child birth? Once again...thank modern medicine...
I could go on and on, but I won't.
Now as far as the forceful application of medicine goes...I think that is total bullshit. For the same reasons I don't think the govt should tell me what to not put in my body...I don't think they should be telling me what to put in my body (or what to do with it).
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: trendal]
#5902438 - 07/26/06 05:11 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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tell that to the children of thalidomide.
Yes, 100 to 10,000 years ago, medicine has made great strides in preventing death. But in the last 50 years, I feel that not only has western medicine become stagnant in improving the quality of life, they have actually caused greater harm through faulty research and bullshit testing standards for FDA approval.
Also, people were probably healthier 300 years ago, just because you live to be 70 doesnt mean you were healthier than someone who only lived to be 30. if you need proof, refer to Steve Prefontaine.
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trendal
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5902468 - 07/26/06 05:30 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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No, you're wrong. Standards today are far, far better than they were 50 years ago. In most cases, there were no standards at all. Today it takes a minimum of 5-10 years to get a drug to market.
Something like thalidomide couldn't happen with the testing proceedures drugs must go through today. That bad of an effect would be caught long before the drug makes it to market.
Remember that thalidomide happened 50 years ago, not recently.
Most of the horror-stories the media feeds you are way over-blown. Most of the time it is a very few people who turn out to have a bad reaction. It has to be such a small percentage of the total population to slip through Phase 3 trials (where thousands of volunteers take the drug).
I say most...not all. I am deeply concerned about the zeal with which modern drugs are marketed, and I think there are some cases popping up where it is clear the pharma company has ignored or directly suppressed unwanted side-effects that come up during Phase 3 trials. It may mean the FDA has to pay more attention to the testing proceedures than it does now.
Also, people were probably healthier 300 years ago, just because you live to be 70 doesnt mean you were healthier than someone who only lived to be 30. if you need proof, refer to Steve Prefontaine.
Wasn't he killed by a car crash? Modern medicine has made great strides in trauma care, and in bringing people back from the edge of death...but once someone is dead, they remain dead.
If he hadn't of had a wreck, he could easily have continued to live into his 80's. That would be modern medicine at work.
300 years ago people died in their 40's because they got too sick for their body and the limited medicine they had to fix. It was far more rare to find what we now consider seniors - they were the lucky ones who made it through their 40's without getting cancer, heart disease, diabetes, the flu, or any of the other ways of getting sick that modern medicine can cure or treat.
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
Edited by trendal (07/26/06 05:33 PM)
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tallgreen
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: trendal]
#5902511 - 07/26/06 05:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think you are only thinking of western life 300 years ago. There are lots of cultures like India and China that have enjoyed really sophisticated medicine that solves most medical problems going back thousands of years. If you were poor life sucked, but that's the same today. Living past 40 is not a new thing. People have been living past 100 for a very long time. It just wasn't as common because education was less common. You need to think outside the western (and 300 years ago that means European) box. Europeans have never understood the body well. Just a couple hundred years ago we were letting blood and all kinds of ridiculous shit. Many other parts of the world were not nearly as barbaric as the Europeans. And you speak of "first world" and "1000 years ago". It seems you do not know much about world history. "First world" is a very recent concept, and 1000 years ago china would have laughed at European progress in regards to health and science. Where do you think gunpowder came from? 1000 years ago Europeans were living in filth while the Chinese were living in harmony with nature. Life was definitely good in many places 300 years ago.
-------------------- Nothing you can know that isn't known. Nothing you can see that isn't shown. Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. It's easy. All you need is love. - The Beatles
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: trendal]
#5902515 - 07/26/06 05:47 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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woops, you are right about prefontaine, I must be thinking of some other marathon runner who died of a heart attack at the age of 30.
Also, there is almost a catch-22 in this FDA regulation. Now, because people like you place so much trust in these trials, there is unabashed consumption of these fad drugs. Maybe the testing has become more rigorous and scientific, but it definitly doesn't show much efficacy in the shadow of the last 10 years of faulty drug history and shelf recalls.
I still have yet to see any proof where modern western medicine is more effective in increasing the quality of life over holistic medicine, and especially not in such a way as to completely shun on in favor of the other.
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Lily_Morgan
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5902568 - 07/26/06 06:14 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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OK, few comments:
1) It's Hodgkin's disease.
2) The state can't compel anyone to do anything medically. The reason this is going to trial is because the kid is a minor and they want to make sure his parents hippy behavior isn't causing him to risk his life.
3) No shit he's going to think that chemo almost killed him. It's poison. If you inject poison into your body it probably won't feel too good.
4) Cancer is a mutation of your body. You kind of have to kill it. Do you really think that herbal medicine is going to kill a genetic mutation?
5) This kid is risking his life because that chemotherapy made him nauseous and in pain for a few months. That pain is NOTHING compared to what he will feel while he is dying from the cancer if he goes off of his treatment.
I'm a little surprised that you guys are questioning a doctor's professional opinion. Chemotherapy has helped THOUSANDS of people get through cancer. Cancer isn't something that can be cured, but it can be put into remission with chemo, which has been through YEARS of testing. And not just lab animal tests, but people as well.
And for the people who are bashing drug trials - these drugs get put into pharmacies after about 10 years of lab studies. The only real way to see how a drug is going to affect people is to give it to them under normal circumstances (i.e. they'll forget to take it sometimes, they drink with it, smoke with it, etc.) and just let them take it for extended periods of time. Unfortunately, since doctors are trying to cure diseases as quickly as they appear, they can't just wait around for 20-25 years to see if someone's blood pressure is going to skyrocket because of this medicine. They just have to determine that it is safe ENOUGH, and then try and kill some illnesses.
And who am I to say all of this?
I'm a doctor.
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Gomp
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Lily_Morgan]
#5902590 - 07/26/06 06:26 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lily_Morgan said: OK, few comments:
1) It's Hodgkin's disease.
2) The state can't compel anyone to do anything medically. The reason this is going to trial is because the kid is a minor and they want to make sure his parents hippy behavior isn't causing him to risk his life.
3) No shit he's going to think that chemo almost killed him. It's poison. If you inject poison into your body it probably won't feel too good.
4) Cancer is a mutation of your body. You kind of have to kill it. Do you really think that herbal medicine is going to kill a genetic mutation?
5) This kid is risking his life because that chemotherapy made him nauseous and in pain for a few months. That pain is NOTHING compared to what he will feel while he is dying from the cancer if he goes off of his treatment.
I'm a little surprised that you guys are questioning a doctor's professional opinion. Chemotherapy has helped THOUSANDS of people get through cancer. Cancer isn't something that can be cured, but it can be put into remission with chemo, which has been through YEARS of testing. And not just lab animal tests, but people as well.
And for the people who are bashing drug trials - these drugs get put into pharmacies after about 10 years of lab studies. The only real way to see how a drug is going to affect people is to give it to them under normal circumstances (i.e. they'll forget to take it sometimes, they drink with it, smoke with it, etc.) and just let them take it for extended periods of time. Unfortunately, since doctors are trying to cure diseases as quickly as they appear, they can't just wait around for 20-25 years to see if someone's blood pressure is going to skyrocket because of this medicine. They just have to determine that it is safe ENOUGH, and then try and kill some illnesses.
And who am I to say all of this?
I'm a doctor.
Said the doctor..
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trendal
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: tallgreen]
#5902600 - 07/26/06 06:29 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think you are only thinking of western life 300 years ago.
No, I'm thinking of everyone 300 years ago. 300 years ago the western nations ruled China and India with much brutal oppression. Their life expectancies at the time were probably less than that of the western imperialistic countries.
There are lots of cultures like India and China that have enjoyed really sophisticated medicine that solves most medical problems going back thousands of years. If you were poor life sucked, but that's the same today.
Modern medicine has its roots in Arab medicine, which itself came from a mix of Greek, Persian, and Asian medicines. They were all far more advanced than anything Europe had between the fall of Rome and the industrial revolution. The Chinese had advanced medicine for their time, but it doesn't come close to the abilities of modern medicine. They had a lot of other technology long before the western world got its hands on it, but China never really continued to progress their science and abilities in any given area (I suspect for religious reasons).
Herbal and traditional medicine still works quite well for the non-serious medical problems in life. The little things that humans have dealt with as long as we've been human. The things we conquered with the best medicine we had, a thousand years ago. Modern equivalents almost inevitably exist, but as the condition is usually not serious...there's no reason to resort to chemical drugs and the like.
If you are poor, your life expectancy generally sucks. Regardless of medical technology or time period 
Living past 40 is not a new thing. People have been living past 100 for a very long time. It just wasn't as common because education was less common.
I never said it was a new thing, just that your chances for living to 40 and past are far, far, far greater today than they were even 100 years ago...and that is entirely due to modern medicine.
The maximum human life span has not changed much for many thousands of years. It is mostly (or even totally...) determined by genetics and so only changes with evolution. The max human life span is around 120-130 years old.
So yes, people from any time in history could have lived until they were 120...but it is rare today and it was much more rare in the past. The average human life span was far lower in the past and has risen sharply in the past 100 years (at least in the "developed" countries). 2000 years ago, in Rome, the average human life span (the "life expectancy") was 22 years. A few people lived to be much older, but most people never saw their 30's. By the 1800's a person born in North America could expect to live to about 40. A few people still lived to be much older - in fact a few more than used to - but still on average a person would only live to 40.
The average in pretty much all the 1st world countries today is in the 80's. That's the AVERAGE! Now only a few people die before they reach 50, most people live into their 80's, and a few people still live a lot longer (but still no longer than 120-130...the actual age on record is 122).
Modern medicine is almost entirely to thank (or blame) for that.
For comparison, in some of the African countries that still don't have readily available access to modern medicine....the human life expectancy is still only 37. This is what a lack of modern medicine looks like.
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Lily_Morgan]
#5902617 - 07/26/06 06:37 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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2)then that would be a case of negligence, which I am pretty sure isn't even mentioned in this case. Also, I would like to direct your attention to the many, many cases involving mandatory consumption of drugs like Ritalin, where children were taken away from their parents under the guise of "negligence" because they refused to place their kids on amphetamines. The state can and has mandated forced consumption of drugs to children.
3) chemo isnt the only thing out there, sure it helps plenty of people, but some people would rather not risk the slightly better odds of possible remission when compared to the months/years of vomiting and bed ridden weakness. Chemo is a lot like killing a fly with a shotgun, and in no way should anyone be forced to undergo that "treatment".
4) here is a personal story: my grandmother lived with advanced breast cancer for 13 years until she died from it. The doctors removed her breasts, didnt stop it. So she lived with the cancer for about 10 years after diagnosis, and began to eat only whole foods in conjunction with some eastern remedies. The cancer was at bay for a good many years, until chemotherapy became popular and the doctors talked her into the "treatment" where she spent the last 2 years of her life in miserable decline as a sickly and miserable person. Death is inevitable, and like I have said before, quantity doesnt denote healthy, or even equate to good/better. I think it is a good idea to research "cures" for cancer, but maybe more effort needs to be placed in maintaining or improving the quality of life for cancer patients, instead of intense radiation treatment.
5) he isnt risking his life anymore than you or I. He is making a choice between the quality and quantity of life.
woiw, who would have thought that a doctor would be shocked at someone questioning doctors professional opinions. Doctors are just as much a capitalistic organization as anything else, who have a self-preserving agenda. For example, im sure you could rant and rant on about how much of a quack science chiropracty is.
Also, if drug trials work so well, then why have so many in the last 5 years been recalled due to deaths?
Im glad the medical profession and FDA are willing to find something SAFE ENOUGH, horshoes and hand grenades come with the degree?
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RRRR
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5902629 - 07/26/06 06:43 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said: 2)then that would be a case of negligence, which I am pretty sure isn't even mentioned in this case. Also, I would like to direct your attention to the many, many cases involving mandatory consumption of drugs like Ritalin, where children were taken away from their parents under the guise of "negligence" because they refused to place their kids on amphetamines. The state can and has mandated forced consumption of drugs to children.
Cite a case from 2004 on...
I'm pretty certain that hasn't occurred ever since the Individuals with Disabilities Act (IDEA) was legislated.
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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tallgreen
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Lily_Morgan]
#5902672 - 07/26/06 07:03 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lily_Morgan said: 4) Cancer is a mutation of your body. You kind of have to kill it. Do you really think that herbal medicine is going to kill a genetic mutation?
No I don't, that's what we have immune systems for. As a doctor you must be aware of the fact that we have cancerous growths all over our body at all times of our lives. Plants have cancer. You currently have cancerous brain cells, prostate cells(unless you are a woman), etc. It's not just from modern pollutants or something, cancer is a part of life, life mutates, cancer happens. What Traditional Chinese Medicine does is "balance" the body, which allows the immune system to naturally destroy cancer. People get rampant cancerous outbreaks (what we call cancer) when their immune systems are not functioning properly. So why would "killing" it stop it from coming back. TCM gets at the underlying mechanism, the reason why it gets out of control in the first place. Chemo might be powerful and effective, but at what? Killing the cancer is not the solution, making the body function properly is.
-------------------- Nothing you can know that isn't known. Nothing you can see that isn't shown. Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. It's easy. All you need is love. - The Beatles
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tallgreen
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: trendal]
#5902693 - 07/26/06 07:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: For comparison, in some of the African countries that still don't have readily available access to modern medicine....the human life expectancy is still only 37. This is what a lack of modern medicine looks like.
I think that is more what a lack of any kind of developed medicine looks like. I agree with most of your rebuttal. Well said. But I think most of what you say is true merely because of what is popular, not because of what is best. If China were to have colonized the planet like the British did I think we would have a similar outcome or better. In summation, I don't discount the miracles of western medicine, surgery, antibiotics, trauma care, vaccines, are unparalleled. It's just that there is something missing in the regular application of it all. I think in the coming century we will see a merging of the two paradigms that will benefit all of humanity.
-------------------- Nothing you can know that isn't known. Nothing you can see that isn't shown. Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. It's easy. All you need is love. - The Beatles
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tallgreen
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: trendal]
#5902711 - 07/26/06 07:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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One more thing..
Quote:
trendal said: The Chinese had advanced medicine for their time, but it doesn't come close to the abilities of modern medicine.
I think this only applies to the scope of certain types of disease. Arthritis, dermatitis, menopause problems, osteoporosis, and even cancer are better treated with TCM. The western approach is not very effective and there is usually no clear answer as to why these things arise. Things like car crashes, polio, and septic infection are better treated with a western approach, hands down.
Edited by tallgreen (07/26/06 07:21 PM)
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: RRRR]
#5903551 - 07/26/06 10:57 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
RRRR said:
Cite a case from 2004 on...
I'm pretty certain that hasn't occurred ever since the Individuals with Disabilities Act (IDEA) was legislated.
the add-on for the IDEA only prohibited schools not taking children unless their parents placed them on drugs, it still doesn't prevent the "negligence" aspect. Also, most often, when children are taken into social services, or the care of the state, the larger majority of them are placed on amphetamines.
Since I am at work, I dont have too much time right now to research this, but one of the few things I did come across was a story about a kid in 2005 that wasnt allowed into a public school because his mother wouldnt put him on adderall.
So even though IDEA was ammended in 2004, this still goes on.
my mother was personally threatened by a school to put me on ritalin many years back, and was told that if she didnt, i would be taken away and put in the care of the state, so it isn't just a few random cases, it atleast WAS a widespread problem, and im almost positive it still goes on.
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RRRR
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5903585 - 07/26/06 11:04 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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You also have to factor in the geography and context of such claims though. First of all, this is an incident pretty much unique to the US. Being European, I can testify that this does not occur in Europe. Same can be said for Canada.
Secondly, this is less an issue of medicine and more so a political one. The chief legislators are in fact the state and the school.
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: RRRR]
#5903627 - 07/26/06 11:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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true, it is more in the political realm, but I think the majority of it stems from how much "faith" we have in science and our assumption that it is infallible.
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RRRR
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5903653 - 07/26/06 11:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I disagree, I think the majority of it stems in the fact that amphetamine production is a huge industry within the US. The vast majority of Ritalin is prescribed to Americans, yet surely Europeans and Canadians have the same faith in modern day medicine.
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: RRRR]
#5903729 - 07/26/06 11:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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if that were true dont you think that Merck and other big pharm companies would be able to swindle and so amazingly market these designer drugs for mass consumption in those countries?
granted Bush would not have won the election if not for the exorbant amount of money given to him by phsrm companies, but i think it is because americans have so much faith in television, pop stars, media, and "modern science" that makes them such an easy target for hand fed useless consumption of harmful drugs.
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5903775 - 07/26/06 11:41 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
my mother was personally threatened by a school to put me on ritalin many years back, and was told that if she didnt, i would be taken away and put in the care of the state, so it isn't just a few random cases, it atleast WAS a widespread problem, and im almost positive it still goes on.
This is the equivalent of either agreeing to forced and probably unnecessary drugging or losing one's child. It is no different than the wrongful commitment of a mental patient to an institution where they are "treated" (forced to take) with "medication" (horrible drugs like Thorazine that make easily controlled zombies out of them).
Ritalin makes active boys controlled and zombielike. Odd that an amphetamine would do that. Now, whether the boy has ADD or ADHD is another matter. I would imagine the percentage of boys diagnosed with these "conditions" greatly exceeds the percentage of girls. Further, that the number of female teachers who observe these "conditions" in boys greatly exceeds the number of male teachers. I would further guess that the incidence of a male teacher observing these "conditions" in girl students is virtually zero.
I use conditions in quotes because I believe that just as in a mental hospital, in a school or even the home of a mom tired of dealing with her active son psychological conditions like ADD and ADHD was created to have a reason to prescribe control drugs like Ritalin. It makes the teacher/mother/mental health "professional" lives easier. It makes the psychiatrist "treating" the ADD and ADHD lots of money from therapy and prescribing Ritalin so they can live in a big house.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (07/26/06 11:45 PM)
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RRRR
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5903793 - 07/26/06 11:43 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Amphetamines are the perfect drug for American youth due to their ability to impose conformity.
The popularity and potential of profit for amphetamines in different countries is heavily correlated to the pathos of the country in regards to amphetamines.
In Canada, for example, Health Canada suspended all sales of Adderall XR after data collected concerning 12 sudden deaths in relation to the drug in American children.
In the UK, amphetamines are regarded as Class B drugs.
Not everywhere is as crazy as the US
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: RRRR]
#5904095 - 07/27/06 01:07 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Big Pharma is making a ton of money from selling these drugs for off-label use on kids. A report in the April 24, 2005, Columbus Dispatch, found that 40,000 children aged 6-18 who were covered by Medicaid were prescribed psychotropic drugs: 31 percent of the children were in foster care, and 22 percent were in juvenile detention. Medicaid spent $65.5 million for drugs used primarily as "chemical restraints," according to Encarnacion Pyle in her series “Drugged into Submission” in the Columbus Dispatch.
According to FDA estimates, 11 million antidepressant prescriptions were written in 2003 for under 19-year-olds, representing a 27 percent increase in three years.
The sale of ADHD drugs also skyrocked in 2003. In 5 to 9-year-old children, their use increased 85 percent, and, in preschoolers, usage was up 49 percent, according to Medco Health Solution’s, 2004 Drug Trend Symposium.
Overall, sales of psychiatric drugs totaled $26.7 billion in 2004, according to NDC Health Corp, a Georgia-based health information firm.
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5904216 - 07/27/06 02:07 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Sick.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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makaveli8x8
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5904290 - 07/27/06 02:40 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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i feel nomatter if his parents are hippies or not, if they all agree to NOT do chemo then thats what should be...so what if they think different than society...so what if his parents put there beleifs on there child....wait a second isn't that what this christain infested country is doing to everyone?? is that what this social worker did? isn't this what the fuckin courts are trying to do???
what makes them different than the parents??
oh thats right there way profits the states bank accounts.....so yet again this is all about money folks...and yes its prob about money to the parents as well, but im sure its also not all about money.
lastly, people say the quaility of life is better now days because of our great health programs but i must say people dam near live out of hospitals now and if you think living to 90 years old in a hospital is btter than living to 40 out of one....well your believing exactly what healthcare corp wants you to think.
take 30 pills a day to keep your mechanical heart from infecting your body and don't forget to recharge your battterys 2 x a day, empty your cathater 3 x a day and don't forget to empty and put your colostomy bag in the clothes washer. and don't forget you have to do all this while using your walker so you don't fall and break another hip but don't worry we can weld that back into place with a few deck screws
this isn't life people...its a fucking joke. we live and we die...some of us get fucked...but you know what thats what NATURE intended and fucking with NATURE has HUGE sideffects that everyone turns a blind eye to because we can fix it with money and more jobs.....but over time our quality of live is getting shittier and shittier for the people that have the 6th sense of being able to see threw the fucking stupid bullshit...then there's the sick basterds that can see it and are spreading lies and trying to make money from it.
there's a reason people get sick...there's a reason they die...when they don't there bad genetics get passed on...and over time all we are left with is fucked up gen's that give us fucked up people...i could go on and on...not that it this changes anyones minds thow....
everyone gets a mind set...i happen to be somewhat of a naturalist.
--------------------
  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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Seuss
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: tallgreen]
#5904396 - 07/27/06 04:43 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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> 5000 years of anecdotal evidence is pretty well tested.
Not at all. How long did people believe the earth was flat before it was shown otherwise? I will take the results of a double blind peer reviewed clinical trial over 5000 years of anecdotal evidence any day.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Viveka
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: trendal]
#5905084 - 07/27/06 11:45 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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If you get in a car crash, break a limb, bleed internally or something immediately traumatic and visceral like that, you'd surely want to have access to the best "western medicine". But for any sort of chronic problem that isn't life-threatening, western doctors are basically clueless. You can treat symptoms for the rest of your life, this is what the AMA is all about, but as far as addressing underlying causes, this approach to true healing is not what the west does well, I think everyone in this discussion can agree, or at least concede to that.
First, the treatment of a patient as a conglomerate of symptoms, or as an expression of a predefined external definition (of disease) is probably the heart of the problem. Furthermore, a Descartian mode of thought still prevails amongst doctors and the west in general, that the mind and body are seperate, or even that one aspect of the mind and another are seperate. Just look at how depression is supposedly "understood" by doctors and their drug clients. "It's a chemical imbalance". First of all, yes, a chemical imbalance may exist, for instance in someone who has a poor diet or is lead to eat foods that are actually not good for them, but have been promoted by society in general as a result of certain industry pressures or outright ignorance and misinformation. If you don't eat well, you are not going to feel well. Most of the people I know who complain of being "depressed" have shit diets, or don't eat breakfast, or perpetuate self-defeating patterns, basically because the pain of having to change seems to outweigh the pain of continuing their self-destructive behavior. Many people in this situation are on antidepressants, but of course the doctor often times does not even begin to address these issues which reflect the person as a whole, they are only interested in treating the symptomolgy, which is what the American Medical Association has trained them to do. Some doctors are of course better than this. Can addressing symptomology lead to the resolution of a problem? Can a pill supplant necessary "inner work"?
I also don't think it's accurate to say modern medicine is "almost entirely" to thank for increased life span. For allowing people a higher likelihood of surviving trauma and for lowering birth mortality, I give western medicine credit, and also for raising awareness about what is and isn't safe to consume. However, western emdicine has introduced just as many things, especially in recent years that aren't safe to consume, that I think their accolades in this regard are effectively negated. People live longer these days because of a generally more organized society, higher levels of infrastructure, and an increase in avaliable information, namely: wealth.
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tallgreen
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Seuss]
#5905786 - 07/27/06 03:32 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > 5000 years of anecdotal evidence is pretty well tested. Not at all. How long did people believe the earth was flat before it was shown otherwise?
They had no results to prove the earth one way or the other. It was just an assumption. These 5000 years of history are based on reliable, reproducible observation. That's science. If you ate some plant and it made your heart rate increase for 4 hours. Then a week later you ate it again and it did the same. Then someone else ate it and it did the same. And then someone else, and so on. Wouldn't you believe that that plant caused an increase in heart rate?
Science: the state of knowing. knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
Chinese Medicine is just like that yet a million fold in complexity. There are dozens of different types of pulses which all indicate various states of various organs in the body. the tongue is an indicator, the appearance of the skin, the eyes, the sound of the voice, and the experience of the patient, do they feel hot/cold, tired, etc. All these factors and their changes are reproducible, and they all indicate the same thing in all patients. It is real knowledge. It is real science. It is NOT wishful thinking, superstition or whatever else you want to call it.
I think western science in combination with these principles can take health care to a new level. We don't have to use herbs. We could use chemical extractions with the same holistic guideline. But it seems like the US will be the last country to adopt this kind of thinking. So the ignorance continues, at least here anyway.
-------------------- Nothing you can know that isn't known. Nothing you can see that isn't shown. Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. It's easy. All you need is love. - The Beatles
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tallgreen
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Viveka]
#5905800 - 07/27/06 03:37 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Viveka said: If you get in a car crash, break a limb, bleed internally or something immediately traumatic and visceral like that, you'd surely want to have access to the best "western medicine". But for any sort of chronic problem that isn't life-threatening, western doctors are basically clueless.

And I would say not even "life threatening", but "immediately life threatening". Most if not all chronic problems are a mystery to western medicine. And things like headaches or canker sores, forget about it.
-------------------- Nothing you can know that isn't known. Nothing you can see that isn't shown. Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. It's easy. All you need is love. - The Beatles
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fireworks_god
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Wasteland]
#5906394 - 07/27/06 07:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wasteland said: And of course he would think chemotherapy almost killed him, that shit is rough (I have a few friends going through it). Heavy doses of radiation and chemical boosting leaves you feeling tired and in pain.
Of course it almost killed him. Heavy doses of radiation and chemical boosting probably harm the body, which is exactly why they utilize such. Its a game of finding out who blinks first, the body, or cancer... isn't it?
Forced radiation, how not surprising.
While we're at it, let's chug down some fucking flouride, eh?
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Seuss
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: tallgreen]
#5908048 - 07/28/06 05:23 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
These 5000 years of history are based on reliable, reproducible observation. That's science.
No, thats 5000 years of observation. There is a big difference.
Quote:
Then a week later you ate it again and it did the same. Then someone else ate it and it did the same. And then someone else, and so on. Wouldn't you believe that that plant caused an increase in heart rate?
Nope, I wouldn't believe that the plant caused an increase in heart rate, but then I am a scientist. I would suspect that a chemical present within the plant may be the cause of the increased heart rate. However, I would recognize that it could be ant droppings on the plant, or something else that I haven't thought of, that is causing the reaction, rather than the plant itself.
> Science: the state of knowing. knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
Scientific method: principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses
The scientific method facilitates science. You are ignoring the method of science and claiming that observations equal science. This is simply not true. Observation, by itself, is not enough to reach a sound, scientific, conclusion.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Viveka]
#5908396 - 07/28/06 09:21 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Great post.
"If you don't eat well, you're not going to feel well."
To me, this about sums it up. And when you don't feel well, you are likely getting sicker. Pretty basic but basically ignored by many people as you point out.
It's like the parent(s) you see at the store buying all the sugar foods, the real crap, and they have the zombie kids with them who are on the Ritalin to control their hyper behavior not from ADHD but from eating all that crap. The problem is, the TV told them they were cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs and they are.
A few people on here have touted the statistics that modern medicine has "increased the average lifespan" over the last "x" years and that "the average lifespan" continues to increase. I agree with the statistics but believe we are fast approaching a tipping point where the average lifespan will level out and then start to decrease.
The average lifespan has increased over the past 100 years largely because of vast improvements in childbirth death rates and saving premature babies and kids not dying from pneumonia at age 2. We live (largely) in houses that are an even temperature because of insulation and heat pumps/AC that 100 years ago wasn't available. We have the trauma and intensive care facilities with medical staffs that will put us back together versus some guy with a saw hacking off a gangrenous leg. We have life saving machines that will breathe for us, beat our hearts, filter our kidneys. We can even get a nice "new" kidney, liver, or heart.
The reason I believe we are reaching the tipping point is that although the advances of modern medicine in terms of equipment and procedures and medications have improved things, the past 100 years have also brought on some majorly negative things that will start to be reducing the average lifespan in the near future.
1. Air and water pollution, chemicals of all kinds such as DDTs PCBs chlorine in the water, flouride for our teeth, it's all gonna kill us slowly and surely it isn't good to be drinking bleach even at low levels.
2. Food. McDonald's, Burger King, Pizza Hut, Taco Bell, KFC, Arby's, Wendy's, Stuckey's, Denny's. Soda, french fries, double cheese double meat hold the pickle hold the lettuce just stack it up.
3. Stress, stress, stress.
4. Radiation. Microwaves, high tension wires, nuclear fallout, cell phones plugged up to your ear so tight it makes it red.
5. Various drugs, prescription or otherwise whether used or abused.
My has gotten very "sick" over the past 10 years and it is my firm belief that most of it has to do with the various prescription medication the various specialists have used to "treat" each and every last symptom. They prescribe medications completely contraindicated for him based on his other conditions, his age, etc. One idiot doctor prescribed glucophage for him for his diabetes that insulin had been working fine for. It made him very ill. Then, the same doctor 3 months later said "well let's try that glucophage again" so my dad took it and this time it almost killed him. He's lucky he has a strong heart.
The wierd thing is that my dad has a PhD and is supposedly concerned about what he puts into his body yet trusts doctors and drugs enough to do exactly what they tell him without question. I have struggled like hell to try to inject a little second opinion let's Google the drug first before you take it attitude and it's been helping but not enough.
Phuck doctors, phuck big pharma, do your own research and then get a second opinion.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (07/28/06 10:00 AM)
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Ped
Interested In Your Brain



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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5908558 - 07/28/06 10:37 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Both established western medicine, and so-called "alternative medicine" have probed the issue of human health from their respective paradigm, using the instrumentation and knowledge available to them at the time.
The Western paradigm looks upon the world as if it were a machine; a system of distinct parts which operate together to produce an organized, but intellectually and spiritually dead phenomenon. We can see how western medicine operates in sync with this outlook. In western medicine, we treat the body as a machine, like an automobile. If something has gone wrong, way pay very little attention to the systemic causes of the problem, and instead set about the business of pouring engineered chemicals into the body, or opening it up and replacing whatever part is malfunctioning.
Other systems of medicine are borne from different worldviews. For example, the ancient Chinese looked upon the world as if it were an organism, alive and deeply interconnected. We can see that the Chinese approached the issue of medicine from this viewpoint. The East Indian perspective is taken throught the lense of cause and effect, with an understanding that any observed phenomenon arises as the effect of previous phenmonon interacting in harmony. From this point of view they developed a system of medicine which had it's emphasis on probing the root causes of a medical problem before issuing any kind of treatment. Both the Chinese and East Indian systems of medicine have had remarkable success, and are still valued and practised in spite of the overwhelming dominance of the western view.
It's popular belief in the world today that the western paradigm, and the medical and scientific ideas which flow from it, are the more correct ones. This is true simply because the western view is the most heavily articulated and widely practised paradigm in the world today. Ironically, it is remarkably unscientific to accept anything as correct simply because many people have decided it's correct.
Speaking personally, I feel that the western mechanical paradigm is choking the life out of the planet, and that it is draining the wonder and beauty out of every issue it explores. I feel that it's a paradigm which needs to be abandoned thoroughly, and as rapidly as possible, if we are interested in our own survival. Given that they are in the process of destroying the world, no, I am not inclined to trust scientists and doctors at all.
To make matters worse, the state has taken it upon itself to legislate what forms of medicine people wish to employ for their own wellbeing. Chemotherapy is a highly toxic cocktail of many radioactive isotopes, given in precise doses which are designed to kill the ailing cells whilst only bringing the healthy cells to the brink of death but not beyond. How absurd! Surely a person has the right to refuse such treatment and pursue other avenues. The mere fact that the state has attempted to overrule the judgement of an individual with differing perspective is testament to the dangerous dominance of the western paradigm, and should cause us to call in to question it's validity and usefulness.
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tallgreen
chillin like avillain

Registered: 05/21/06
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Seuss]
#5908675 - 07/28/06 11:26 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: Scientific method: principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses
The scientific method facilitates science. You are ignoring the method of science and claiming that observations equal science. This is simply not true. Observation, by itself, is not enough to reach a sound, scientific, conclusion.
I am not saying observation by itself equals science. I saw that definition as well. You are assuming TCM does not meet the criteria of scientific method, it does. Refer to my previous link to amazon.com. They provide a preview of that book which you can read for some initial understanding of TCM. I would bet cash money that TCM is scientific in it's fundamentals. It IS a systematic pursuit of knowledge, it DOES collect data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses. It seems you don't know enough about TCM to assert that it doesn't, otherwise you wouldn't have done so.
That leaf example. Sure it could have been ant droppings, that would be discovered (same plant grown indoors, etc.), as the methods are scientific. A chemical within the plant? Of course, it's all chemicals, why complicate the issue? They tried to take THC out of weed to make Marinol and it doesn't work as well Maurijuana. Plants are vastly complex(THC,CBN,CBD, and 400 others), and those subtle complexities have been mapped and charted by TCM, why mess with harmony?
I'm not knocking modern research. There is a book I want to buy called "The Pharmacology of Chinese Herbs", it discusses the chemical components and their actions of over 400 Chinese herbs. But that kind of knowledge is young and under developed. That kind of science is too immature to be used with certainty and predictability, let alone the interactions between these isolated chemicals.
Keep in mind, per the definitions of science and scientific method, science does not have to use knowledge of the table of elements, it does not have to understand cellular biology, or anything on a microscopic level. It just needs to fall within the criteria of those definitions, which TCM does.
Holistic medicine is the method of treating the body as a interconnected organism, rather than a pile of symptoms and conditions each to be addressed individually. There is nothing wrong with the methods of western medical science, just the paradigm through which results are pursued.
-------------------- Nothing you can know that isn't known. Nothing you can see that isn't shown. Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. It's easy. All you need is love. - The Beatles
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tallgreen
chillin like avillain

Registered: 05/21/06
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5908703 - 07/28/06 11:34 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said: The wierd thing is that my dad has a PhD and is supposedly concerned about what he puts into his body yet trusts doctors and drugs enough to do exactly what they tell him without question. I have struggled like hell to try to inject a little second opinion let's Google the drug first before you take it attitude and it's been helping but not enough.
That's sad. You would think someone with a PhD would feel like they could educate themselves to a professional level on anything. That just shows how brainwashed our nation is regarding health. Even our "experts" are mislead. I don't blame anyone in particular, even though there are obviously contributing parties. It's just sad.
-------------------- Nothing you can know that isn't known. Nothing you can see that isn't shown. Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. It's easy. All you need is love. - The Beatles
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: tallgreen]
#5908749 - 07/28/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think because he was/is meticulous and professional and thorough that he expects others to be the same. Or maybe it was growing up in the "do as you are told" era he did. Or maybe people just place too much trust in scientists and doctors...
(Did you like how I ended with the post title?)
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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tallgreen
chillin like avillain

Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 293
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5908867 - 07/28/06 12:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said: I think because he was/is meticulous and professional and thorough that he expects others to be the same. Or maybe it was growing up in the "do as you are told" era he did. Or maybe people just place too much trust in scientists and doctors...
(Did you like how I ended with the post title?)
Yeah nice one. I'm sure it's all of the above. My dad was similar with his prostate cancer. He went along with the removal of the prostate, but then when they suggested hormone therapy he took my advice and started seeing a Chinese oncologist (PhD) who reverted back to practicing traditional Chinese medicine. He knew the hormone therapy was bogus cause it made his father's life miserable, and he didn't want to have the same problems. After changing his diet and taking herbal prescriptions each day he has never felt better in his entire life! He remarks about how good he feels all the time. Also, the Chinese oncologist told me about how American studies are often biased, so he ignores them and only pays attention to European studies. Like how PSA, the typical indicator for the state of prostate cancer is inaccurate, because it is not only a measure of antigens, but also of antibodies, something that could indicate the opposite of what his American doctor was saying.
-------------------- Nothing you can know that isn't known. Nothing you can see that isn't shown. Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. It's easy. All you need is love. - The Beatles
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