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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5902568 -

OK, few comments:

1) It's Hodgkin's disease.

2) The state can't compel anyone to do anything medically. The reason this is going to trial is because the kid is a minor and they want to make sure his parents hippy behavior isn't causing him to risk his life.

3) No shit he's going to think that chemo almost killed him. It's poison. If you inject poison into your body it probably won't feel too good.

4) Cancer is a mutation of your body. You kind of have to kill it. Do you really think that herbal medicine is going to kill a genetic mutation?

5) This kid is risking his life because that chemotherapy made him nauseous and in pain for a few months. That pain is NOTHING compared to what he will feel while he is dying from the cancer if he goes off of his treatment.

I'm a little surprised that you guys are questioning a doctor's professional opinion. Chemotherapy has helped THOUSANDS of people get through cancer. Cancer isn't something that can be cured, but it can be put into remission with chemo, which has been through YEARS of testing. And not just lab animal tests, but people as well.

And for the people who are bashing drug trials - these drugs get put into pharmacies after about 10 years of lab studies. The only real way to see how a drug is going to affect people is to give it to them under normal circumstances (i.e. they'll forget to take it sometimes, they drink with it, smoke with it, etc.) and just let them take it for extended periods of time. Unfortunately, since doctors are trying to cure diseases as quickly as they appear, they can't just wait around for 20-25 years to see if someone's blood pressure is going to skyrocket because of this medicine. They just have to determine that it is safe ENOUGH, and then try and kill some illnesses.

And who am I to say all of this?

I'm a doctor.

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Lily_Morgan]
    #5902590 -

Lily_Morgan said:
OK, few comments:

1) It's Hodgkin's disease. 

2) The state can't compel anyone to do anything medically.  The reason this is going to trial is because the kid is a minor and they want to make sure his parents hippy behavior isn't causing him to risk his life.

3) No shit he's going to think that chemo almost killed him.  It's poison.  If you inject poison into your body it probably won't feel too good.

4) Cancer is a mutation of your body.  You kind of have to kill it.  Do you really think that herbal medicine is going to kill a genetic mutation? 

5) This kid is risking his life because that chemotherapy made him nauseous and in pain for a few months.  That pain is NOTHING compared to what he will feel while he is dying from the cancer if he goes off of his treatment.

I'm a little surprised that you guys are questioning a doctor's professional opinion.  Chemotherapy has helped THOUSANDS of people get through cancer.  Cancer isn't something that can be cured, but it can be put into remission with chemo, which has been through YEARS of testing.  And not just lab animal tests, but people as well.

And for the people who are bashing drug trials - these drugs get put into pharmacies after about 10 years of lab studies.  The only real way to see how a drug is going to affect people is to give it to them under normal circumstances (i.e. they'll forget to take it sometimes, they drink with it, smoke with it, etc.) and just let them take it for extended periods of time.  Unfortunately, since doctors are trying to cure diseases as quickly as they appear, they can't just wait around for 20-25 years to see if someone's blood pressure is going to skyrocket because of this medicine.  They just have to determine that it is safe ENOUGH, and then try and kill some illnesses.

And who am I to say all of this?

I'm a doctor.


Said the doctor..

:thumbdown: :crazy2: :thumbup:

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: tallgreen]
    #5902600 -

I think you are only thinking of western life 300 years ago.

No, I'm thinking of everyone 300 years ago. 300 years ago the western nations ruled China and India with much brutal oppression. Their life expectancies at the time were probably less than that of the western imperialistic countries.

There are lots of cultures like India and China that have enjoyed really sophisticated medicine that solves most medical problems going back thousands of years. If you were poor life sucked, but that's the same today.

Modern medicine has its roots in Arab medicine, which itself came from a mix of Greek, Persian, and Asian medicines. They were all far more advanced than anything Europe had between the fall of Rome and the industrial revolution. The Chinese had advanced medicine for their time, but it doesn't come close to the abilities of modern medicine. They had a lot of other technology long before the western world got its hands on it, but China never really continued to progress their science and abilities in any given area (I suspect for religious reasons).

Herbal and traditional medicine still works quite well for the non-serious medical problems in life. The little things that humans have dealt with as long as we've been human. The things we conquered with the best medicine we had, a thousand years ago. Modern equivalents almost inevitably exist, but as the condition is usually not serious...there's no reason to resort to chemical drugs and the like.

If you are poor, your life expectancy generally sucks. Regardless of medical technology or time period :frown:

Living past 40 is not a new thing. People have been living past 100 for a very long time. It just wasn't as common because education was less common.

I never said it was a new thing, just that your chances for living to 40 and past are far, far, far greater today than they were even 100 years ago...and that is entirely due to modern medicine.

The maximum human life span has not changed much for many thousands of years. It is mostly (or even totally...) determined by genetics and so only changes with evolution. The max human life span is around 120-130 years old.

So yes, people from any time in history could have lived until they were 120...but it is rare today and it was much more rare in the past. The average human life span was far lower in the past and has risen sharply in the past 100 years (at least in the "developed" countries). 2000 years ago, in Rome, the average human life span (the "life expectancy") was 22 years. A few people lived to be much older, but most people never saw their 30's. By the 1800's a person born in North America could expect to live to about 40. A few people still lived to be much older - in fact a few more than used to - but still on average a person would only live to 40.

The average in pretty much all the 1st world countries today is in the 80's. That's the AVERAGE! Now only a few people die before they reach 50, most people live into their 80's, and a few people still live a lot longer (but still no longer than 120-130...the actual age on record is 122).

Modern medicine is almost entirely to thank (or blame) for that.

For comparison, in some of the African countries that still don't have readily available access to modern medicine....the human life expectancy is still only 37. This is what a lack of modern medicine looks like.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Lily_Morgan]
    #5902617 -

2)then that would be a case of negligence, which I am pretty sure isn't even mentioned in this case. Also, I would like to direct your attention to the many, many cases involving mandatory consumption of drugs like Ritalin, where children were taken away from their parents under the guise of "negligence" because they refused to place their kids on amphetamines.
The state can and has mandated forced consumption of drugs to children.

3) chemo isnt the only thing out there, sure it helps plenty of people, but some people would rather not risk the slightly better odds of possible remission when compared to the months/years of vomiting and bed ridden weakness.
Chemo is a lot like killing a fly with a shotgun, and in no way should anyone be forced to undergo that "treatment".

4) here is a personal story: my grandmother lived with advanced breast cancer for 13 years until she died from it. The doctors removed her breasts, didnt stop it. So she lived with the cancer for about 10 years after diagnosis, and began to eat only whole foods in conjunction with some eastern remedies. The cancer was at bay for a good many years, until chemotherapy became popular and the doctors talked her into the "treatment" where she spent the last 2 years of her life in miserable decline as a sickly and miserable person.
Death is inevitable, and like I have said before, quantity doesnt denote healthy, or even equate to good/better.
I think it is a good idea to research "cures" for cancer, but maybe more effort needs to be placed in maintaining or improving the quality of life for cancer patients, instead of intense radiation treatment.

5) he isnt risking his life anymore than you or I. He is making a choice between the quality and quantity of life.


woiw, who would have thought that a doctor would be shocked at someone questioning doctors professional opinions. Doctors are just as much a capitalistic organization as anything else, who have a self-preserving agenda. For example, im sure you could rant and rant on about how much of a quack science chiropracty is.


Also, if drug trials work so well, then why have so many in the last 5 years been recalled due to deaths?

Im glad the medical profession and FDA are willing to find something SAFE ENOUGH, horshoes and hand grenades come with the degree?

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5902629 -

psilocyberin said:
2)then that would be a case of negligence, which I am pretty sure isn't even mentioned in this case. Also, I would like to direct your attention to the many, many cases involving mandatory consumption of drugs like Ritalin, where children were taken away from their parents under the guise of "negligence" because they refused to place their kids on amphetamines.
The state can and has mandated forced consumption of drugs to children.




Cite a case from 2004 on...

I'm pretty certain that hasn't occurred ever since the Individuals with Disabilities Act (IDEA) was legislated.


--------------------
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: Lily_Morgan]
    #5902672 -

Lily_Morgan said:
4) Cancer is a mutation of your body. You kind of have to kill it. Do you really think that herbal medicine is going to kill a genetic mutation?



No I don't, that's what we have immune systems for. As a doctor you must be aware of the fact that we have cancerous growths all over our body at all times of our lives. Plants have cancer. You currently have cancerous brain cells, prostate cells(unless you are a woman), etc. It's not just from modern pollutants or something, cancer is a part of life, life mutates, cancer happens. What Traditional Chinese Medicine does is "balance" the body, which allows the immune system to naturally destroy cancer. People get rampant cancerous outbreaks (what we call cancer) when their immune systems are not functioning properly. So why would "killing" it stop it from coming back. TCM gets at the underlying mechanism, the reason why it gets out of control in the first place. Chemo might be powerful and effective, but at what? Killing the cancer is not the solution, making the body function properly is.


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: trendal]
    #5902693 -

trendal said:
For comparison, in some of the African countries that still don't have readily available access to modern medicine....the human life expectancy is still only 37. This is what a lack of modern medicine looks like.


I think that is more what a lack of any kind of developed medicine looks like. I agree with most of your rebuttal. Well said. But I think most of what you say is true merely because of what is popular, not because of what is best. If China were to have colonized the planet like the British did I think we would have a similar outcome or better. In summation, I don't discount the miracles of western medicine, surgery, antibiotics, trauma care, vaccines, are unparalleled. It's just that there is something missing in the regular application of it all. I think in the coming century we will see a merging of the two paradigms that will benefit all of humanity.


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: trendal]
    #5902711 -

One more thing..

trendal said:
The Chinese had advanced medicine for their time, but it doesn't come close to the abilities of modern medicine.



I think this only applies to the scope of certain types of disease. Arthritis, dermatitis, menopause problems, osteoporosis, and even cancer are better treated with TCM. The western approach is not very effective and there is usually no clear answer as to why these things arise. Things like car crashes, polio, and septic infection are better treated with a western approach, hands down.

Edited by tallgreen (07/26/06 09:21 PM)

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: RRRR]
    #5903551 -

RRRR said:
Cite a case from 2004 on...

I'm pretty certain that hasn't occurred ever since the Individuals with Disabilities Act (IDEA) was legislated.


the add-on for the IDEA only prohibited schools not taking children unless their parents placed them on drugs, it still doesn't prevent the "negligence" aspect. Also, most often, when children are taken into social services, or the care of the state, the larger majority of them are placed on amphetamines.

Since I am at work, I dont have too much time right now to research this, but one of the few things I did come across was a story about a kid in 2005 that wasnt allowed into a public school because his mother wouldnt put him on adderall.

So even though IDEA was ammended in 2004, this still goes on.

my mother was personally threatened by a school to put me on ritalin many years back, and was told that if she didnt, i would be taken away and put in the care of the state, so it isn't just a few random cases, it atleast WAS a widespread problem, and im almost positive it still goes on.

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5903585 -

You also have to factor in the geography and context of such claims though. First of all, this is an incident pretty much unique to the US. Being European, I can testify that this does not occur in Europe. Same can be said for Canada.

Secondly, this is less an issue of medicine and more so a political one. The chief legislators are in fact the state and the school.


--------------------
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: RRRR]
    #5903627 -

true, it is more in the political realm, but I think the majority of it stems from how much "faith" we have in science and our assumption that it is infallible.

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5903653 -

I disagree, I think the majority of it stems in the fact that amphetamine production is a huge industry within the US. The vast majority of Ritalin is prescribed to Americans, yet surely Europeans and Canadians have the same faith in modern day medicine.


--------------------
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: RRRR]
    #5903729 -

if that were true dont you think that Merck and other big pharm companies would be able to swindle and so amazingly market these designer drugs for mass consumption in those countries?

granted Bush would not have won the election if not for the exorbant amount of money given to him by phsrm companies, but i think it is because americans have so much faith in television, pop stars, media, and "modern science" that makes them such an easy target for hand fed useless consumption of harmful drugs.

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5903775 -

Quote:
my mother was personally threatened by a school to put me on ritalin many years back, and was told that if she didnt, i would be taken away and put in the care of the state, so it isn't just a few random cases, it atleast WAS a widespread problem, and im almost positive it still goes on.


This is the equivalent of either agreeing to forced and probably unnecessary drugging or losing one's child. It is no different than the wrongful commitment of a mental patient to an institution where they are "treated" (forced to take) with "medication" (horrible drugs like Thorazine that make easily controlled zombies out of them).

Ritalin makes active boys controlled and zombielike. Odd that an amphetamine would do that. Now, whether the boy has ADD or ADHD is another matter. I would imagine the percentage of boys diagnosed with these "conditions" greatly exceeds the percentage of girls. Further, that the number of female teachers who observe these "conditions" in boys greatly exceeds the number of male teachers. I would further guess that the incidence of a male teacher observing these "conditions" in girl students is virtually zero.

I use conditions in quotes because I believe that just as in a mental hospital, in a school or even the home of a mom tired of dealing with her active son psychological conditions like ADD and ADHD was created to have a reason to prescribe control drugs like Ritalin. It makes the teacher/mother/mental health "professional" lives easier. It makes the psychiatrist "treating" the ADD and ADHD lots of money from therapy and prescribing Ritalin so they can live in a big house.



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

Edited by LunarEclipse (07/27/06 01:45 AM)

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5903793 -

Amphetamines are the perfect drug for American youth due to their ability to impose conformity.

The popularity and potential of profit for amphetamines in different countries is heavily correlated to the pathos of the country in regards to amphetamines.

In Canada, for example, Health Canada suspended all sales of Adderall XR after data collected concerning 12 sudden deaths in relation to the drug in American children.

In the UK, amphetamines are regarded as Class B drugs.

Not everywhere is as crazy as the US  :cool:


--------------------
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: RRRR]
    #5904095 -

Quote:
Big Pharma is making a ton of money from selling these drugs for off-label use on kids. A report in the April 24, 2005, Columbus Dispatch, found that 40,000 children aged 6-18 who were covered by Medicaid were prescribed psychotropic drugs: 31 percent of the children were in foster care, and 22 percent were in juvenile detention. Medicaid spent $65.5 million for drugs used primarily as "chemical restraints," according to Encarnacion Pyle in her series “Drugged into Submission” in the Columbus Dispatch.

According to FDA estimates, 11 million antidepressant prescriptions were written in 2003 for under 19-year-olds, representing a 27 percent increase in three years.

The sale of ADHD drugs also skyrocked in 2003. In 5 to 9-year-old children, their use increased 85 percent, and, in preschoolers, usage was up 49 percent, according to Medco Health Solution’s, 2004 Drug Trend Symposium.

Overall, sales of psychiatric drugs totaled $26.7 billion in 2004, according to NDC Health Corp, a Georgia-based health information firm.


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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5904216 -

Sick.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5904290 -

i feel nomatter if his parents are hippies or not, if they all agree to NOT do chemo then thats what should be...so what if they think different than society...so what if his parents put there beleifs on there child....wait a second isn't that what this christain infested country is doing to everyone?? is that what this social worker did? isn't this what the fuckin courts are trying to do???

what makes them different than the parents??

oh thats right there way profits the states bank accounts.....so yet again this is all about money folks...and yes its prob about money to the parents as well, but im sure its also not all about money.

lastly, people say the quaility of life is better now days because of our great health programs but i must say people dam near live out of hospitals now and if you think living to 90 years old in a hospital is btter than living to 40 out of one....well your believing exactly what healthcare corp wants you to think.

take 30 pills a day to keep your mechanical heart from infecting your body and don't forget to recharge your battterys 2 x a day, empty your cathater 3 x a day and don't forget to empty and put your colostomy bag in the clothes washer. and don't forget you have to do all this while using your walker so you don't fall and break another hip but don't worry we can weld that back into place with a few deck screws

this isn't life people...its a fucking joke. we live and we die...some of us get fucked...but you know what thats what NATURE intended and fucking with NATURE has HUGE sideffects that everyone turns a blind eye to because we can fix it with money and more jobs.....but over time our quality of live is getting shittier and shittier for the people that have the 6th sense of being able to see threw the fucking stupid bullshit...then there's the sick basterds that can see it and are spreading lies and trying to make money from it.

there's a reason people get sick...there's a reason they die...when they don't there bad genetics get passed on...and over time all we are left with is fucked up gen's that give us fucked up people...i could go on and on...not that it this changes anyones minds thow....

everyone gets a mind set...i happen to be somewhat of a naturalist.


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: tallgreen]
    #5904396 -

> 5000 years of anecdotal evidence is pretty well tested.

Not at all. How long did people believe the earth was flat before it was shown otherwise? I will take the results of a double blind peer reviewed clinical trial over 5000 years of anecdotal evidence any day.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Do we place too much trust in scientists and doctors? [Re: trendal]
    #5905084 -

If you get in a car crash, break a limb, bleed internally or something immediately traumatic and visceral like that, you'd surely want to have access to the best "western medicine". But for any sort of chronic problem that isn't life-threatening, western doctors are basically clueless. You can treat symptoms for the rest of your life, this is what the AMA is all about, but as far as addressing underlying causes, this approach to true healing is not what the west does well, I think everyone in this discussion can agree, or at least concede to that.

First, the treatment of a patient as a conglomerate of symptoms, or as an expression of a predefined external definition (of disease) is probably the heart of the problem. Furthermore, a Descartian mode of thought still prevails amongst doctors and the west in general, that the mind and body are seperate, or even that one aspect of the mind and another are seperate. Just look at how depression is supposedly "understood" by doctors and their drug clients. "It's a chemical imbalance". First of all, yes, a chemical imbalance may exist, for instance in someone who has a poor diet or is lead to eat foods that are actually not good for them, but have been promoted by society in general as a result of certain industry pressures or outright ignorance and misinformation. If you don't eat well, you are not going to feel well. Most of the people I know who complain of being "depressed" have shit diets, or don't eat breakfast, or perpetuate self-defeating patterns, basically because the pain of having to change seems to outweigh the pain of continuing their self-destructive behavior. Many people in this situation are on antidepressants, but of course the doctor often times does not even begin to address these issues which reflect the person as a whole, they are only interested in treating the symptomolgy, which is what the American Medical Association has trained them to do. Some doctors are of course better than this. Can addressing symptomology lead to the resolution of a problem? Can a pill supplant necessary "inner work"?

I also don't think it's accurate to say modern medicine is
"almost entirely" to thank for increased life span. For allowing people a higher likelihood of surviving trauma and for lowering birth mortality, I give western medicine credit, and also for raising awareness about what is and isn't safe to consume. However, western emdicine has introduced just as many things, especially in recent years that aren't safe to consume, that I think their accolades in this regard are effectively negated. People live longer these days because of a generally more organized society, higher levels of infrastructure, and an increase in avaliable information, namely: wealth.

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