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OfflinePed
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Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related?
    #3266289 - 10/23/04 12:34 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

What is really underlying our motivation to discuss the things we discuss here?

On the bus on the way home from school this afternoon, I was gazing out the window as us transit riders passed a store called "The Hemporium." It's one of those shops that sells all things hemp and marijuana related. Pipes, bongs, papers, T-Shirts with comical references to pot and mushrooms, incense, trinkets, books about growing everything from peyote to tabernathe iboga, things of that nature. What jumped out at me was a figurine of Vajrasattva sitting in the window next to a lamp quite deliberately designed to resemble a mushroom. Vajrasattva is a Wisdom Buddha, a solitary realizer, the Buddha of purifcation.

Now, there is no question that it was my marijuana smoking (which was in the past quite heavy and unhealthy) that eventually opened me up to Eastern thought, and finally into Tibetan Buddhism. It wasn't long before I stopped smoking marijuana and completely immersed myself in Dharma.

Not long ago I was watching a television show called "Dead Like Me" with a friend of mine. The main character, a cynical young woman, was speaking to a man in his mid-twenties with scraggly clothes, a disorganized apartment, and a glazed stare. He mentioned that he was reading a book about Zen Buddhism. The main character glared at him and quipped "Oh, Great! You must smoke pot!"

LSD users in San Fransisco are singlehandedly responsible for the popularity of the Tibetan Book of the Dead in the 1960's. It was this popularity which was the first root Dharma took in the West. Now, the world's largest Buddhist monastery is located in San Fransisco. There are more ordained Sangha in the United States today than there are in Laos, Thailand, and Vietnam combined. California is regarded as the epicenter of Buddhism in America. What's up with that?

My question is: Why is it that Eastern & New Age thought and drug use seem almost formulaically linked to eachother?

It is not sufficient to suggest that drug use "opens the mind to wisdom", and that naturally this new wisdom leads us into Eastern & New Age thinking, because for some reason or another Eastern religions are more worthwhile than Western ones. Nonetheless, it is an observable trend that drug users seem to gravitate toward systems of thought like Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Naturopathic medicine, environmentalism, and so on. I'm trying to figure out the mechanics of that gravity. What is going on here, with this trend?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Ped]
    #3266296 - 10/23/04 12:35 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Yes,they are related. Often times idiots are attracted to both.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflinePed
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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3266314 - 10/23/04 12:41 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

So you're saying that if somebody is attracted to both, they meet the criteria of "idiot?" The reason they are related is because of "idiots"? That is your contribution?


Edited by Ped (10/23/04 12:56 AM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Ped]
    #3266322 - 10/23/04 12:44 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I did not say that...BUT idiots are often attracted to both...not all people attracted to these things are idiots, just a lot of them.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleTheDude
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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3266328 - 10/23/04 12:45 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

:rolleyes:


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"this lebowski he called himself 'the dude'. now, 'dude', that's a name no one would self-apply where i come from but there was a lot about the dude that didn't make sense to me...."--the Stranger


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3266337 - 10/23/04 12:48 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Let me clarify. Non-productive people are often attracted to drugs. They often adopt eastern philosophy (superficially) to aggrandize themselves and legitimize their non-productivity.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflinePed
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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3266339 - 10/23/04 12:48 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Though, I don't think it's really fair to see someone as an idiot simply because they appear misguided in their forays into psychedelic drugs and eastern thought. They might be misguided, or behaving foolishly, or obviously escapsist in their motivation to us on the external, but that does not mean that they simply lack intelligence and are unworthy of basic respect.


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Ped]
    #3266345 - 10/23/04 12:50 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

You assume to much of me. Everyone deserves basic respect and courtesy. Many non-productive people are quite intelligent as well.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3266349 - 10/23/04 12:51 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I have just seen this behavior too much in my life and I am quite jaded in this respect.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflinePed
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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3266357 - 10/23/04 12:53 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

>> They often adopt eastern philosophy (superficially) to aggrandize themselves and legitimize their non-productivity.

That's an observation quite pertinent to a great number of people. Though, it doesn't account for the full scope of the relationship between psychedelic drugs and eastern thought. I'm still curious about why the two seem to go hand in hand.


>> I have just seen this behavior too much in my life and I am quite jaded in this respect

I understand.


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Ped]
    #3266365 - 10/23/04 12:56 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

If you truly embrace an eastern philosophy, like Zen for instance, drugs are strongly discouraged by the serious practicioners.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Ped]
    #3266410 - 10/23/04 01:05 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Great post, great question. I suspect that a large connection between the two; Eastern religion/philosophy and drug use, is the egoic self, or rather transcendence of the egoic self. Caveat lector, just a general armchair contribution.


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleTheDude
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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Ped]
    #3266416 - 10/23/04 01:07 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

i read a book a while back called Zig Zag Zen: Buddhism and Psychedelics (it was actually recommened by someone on these boards). worth a read if you haven't already...


--------------------
"this lebowski he called himself 'the dude'. now, 'dude', that's a name no one would self-apply where i come from but there was a lot about the dude that didn't make sense to me...."--the Stranger


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Ped]
    #3266565 - 10/23/04 01:56 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

My question is: Why is it that Eastern & New Age thought and drug use seem almost formulaically linked to eachother?

One cannot dismiss the cultural link provided by the early psychedelic pioneers and writers emerging at the time such as Watts, Leary, Ram Dass, Ginsberg, Huxley, The Beatles; etc. If these hip folks believed Eastern Thought was cool, there MUST be something to it.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Ped]
    #3266610 - 10/23/04 02:07 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

It could be that, in general, people who gravitate towards drug use (especially psychedelics) tend to foster an almost profound distrust of the established societal norms.

First, you learn that you've been lied to for your whole life about drugs in general. Then you wonder how many OTHER lies you've been told. Disillusion sets in and you start looking for other ways to think and act...anything that will put those lies a little farther behind you.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: trendal]
    #3266870 - 10/23/04 04:19 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

interesting question. My guess would be that most or at least many drug users are attracted to the idea of changing their mental state and perception, at a fundamental level. To the western kid, eastern religion with its abstract 'meditation' enlightenment and spiritual experiences probably sounds like another way of 'tripping out' or turning on, changing the head state.

to a certain extent thats true.


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Everything I post is fiction.


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3267181 - 10/23/04 09:16 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I was always a pretty deep thinker. A little religious, but nothing major. When I started smoking pot, I was always trying to hide it, and always wondering "How can they make nature illegal?" They can't. At this point I was going through my anti-establishment phase, and after reading alot of books, listening to public speakers, and listening to Rage Against The Machine, I realized there was a lot of curruption in the world. People wage wars across the world not for human rights, but purely monetary interests. These same human rights VIOLATORS, are the ones telling me that smoking pot is wrong, and illegal. Something isnt right here.

Through time, I noticed that these people were also Jesus worshipping sheep. I was raised really well by my mother. I speak to everyone politely, and hold doors, treat my fellow man with much respect. I want nothing more in life than for everyone to get along. Well these people seemed a little funny to me. The people at church would drink and smoke, talking about how drugs were bad. They would swear, and fight, and do all kinds of bad things, but if they slept through this 2 hour spill every sunday they had "hell-insurance."

Is this right?!?!

I didnt go to church, I had better stuff to do with my time. I read the bible, and what I gathered from it were stories helping people resolve problems with the best of intentions, and pretty much "fables." It gave a good example to the birth of man, but I could not take it litterally. My teachers told my we used to be monkeys. They also told me that Dinosaurs existed before us, wiped out by a giant rock.

I looked at the example as a good metaphor as to how we are all prone to evil, but if we focus, we can return once again to the garden of eden.

Then came Jesus. I dont know what the deal is, except one person being completely humble. This man died for what he believed in, giving up no struggle. If they had hatred for him, that was their problem, not his. He was not the creator of the universe! I heard something about losing all humility in some kind of book, or on the internet somewhere talking about eastern religion.

At this point, I was going to try and experiment with mushrooms. It might have been fate, or my group of friends just being hippies, or whatever, but I did it, and I loved it.

Pot was okay, even the man bringing me down admitted that most people have tried pot, and it was OBVIOUSLY not that bad for you. But they made Mushrooms into a hard drug, like heroin, and crack. After I ate these little things that grow out of shit, all I did was smile and laugh for 6 hours. Pure heaven. I later found out that these little things caused your brain to BLEED.

Oh shit I said. I instantly got on the internet to find out that this was all a bunch of propaganda to keep me from trying them. Again, why dont they want me trying them? Why are they continuing to make nature illegal?

While finding the truth, I also found communities devoted to drug use, and finding the inner spirit. Some of the people talked about Christianity and drugs, others talked about Taoism and drugs, I learned all I could.

I read and read about peoples personal interpretations of the bible, and how they think the message got skewed through time. I read about the Christians banned from the church for believing that heaven was a place inside your mind, and that earth could be heaven or hell, depending on what you made it.

I also read alot of eastern philisophy and religious texts which seemed to be written out of the box.

My mind was in constant limbo, trying to figure out the truth, but then it dawned on me. Most of what is taught in all of these religions are the same basic principle. Some obviously focussing on society as a whole, and how to play a productive, and civil rose, while the others helped you explore the inner self, and others the outer infinite universe.

Somehow these things in wich I was learning seemed more of a "common sense" type thing, than pure fact. I have learned this all before somewhere, or it was programmed into my body and soul. When I take psychedelics, my mind starts dissolving boundarys, the same ones eastern philosophy tells you to remove.

Maybe there is a universal truth, and eastern thought is bold enough to go there without worrying about scaring the people with too much information. Maybe people come to it when they are ready?

I think the mind needs to be conditioned to think outside of the box, we may be there when we are born, but modern society does not leave us healthy minded enough to go exploring. I think drugs offer some mental conditioning for us, preparing us for what we need to find out. I do not think they were a mistake, they are a tool. I do however believe that you can get there without drugs, and ultimately, you will not need them in the end. Some people also get lost in the novelty of drug use, and lose thier path. In order to become all that we can be, we need to drop the ego, or atleast re-create it to suit the new world. Drugs will definately help with that.


Sorry for the randomness, and poorly written story. I think pot is just a drug, but because of its legal status, it makes its users ask questions. It is obvously curious by nature, but if legalized, it may be taken for granted like alcohol.

I also think that there is a certain breed of people who seeks ultimate truth, and more to life. When personalities, and societies, and childhood all come into the quantum equasion, maybe smoking pot is a probable outcome. You know? Maybe people who are into eartern philosophy just so happen to smoke dope, because it was offered to them before the east was.


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The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.


Edited by root-ninja-tak (10/23/04 09:23 AM)


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OfflineBanJankri
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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Ped]
    #3267226 - 10/23/04 10:02 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I think partly the reason is because of the meaning attached. If I say am I am seeking spiritual enlightenment and my friend says its because of the drugz, then it has become a cliche.


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Just let everything flow, just flow right to the center of everything. You gotta turn off your mind and relax, and then just float downstream...


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3267377 - 10/23/04 12:11 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Beautifully stated.

I would add, however, that for myself, for a brief time, being stoned on cannabis showed me that the ego-driven, anxiety-ridden mentality of American consumerism that I grew up incould be temporarily suspended. Unfortunately, this 'lesson' usually became the path that you described.

In my generation it may have turned into bummy-druggy-burnout, or for some worldly intellectuals some kind of socialist political trip, or for more unworldly intellectuals who were spiritually starved (like me at the time) a passive, non-competative, non-violent even asexual existence in search of the Tao, or Nirvana or Sahaj Samadhi or whatever. It wasn't cannabis alone, but the introduction of strong psychedelics that fueled this quest. Cannabis was used in conjunction with psychedelics for me (on getting off, intensifying the peak, coming down) and stoning was a manageable high bridging the week between trips. Later, when I eliminated cannabis use, the trips became fewer and further apart because then, the trips were occasional boosters taken during the REAL spiritual work of everyday life. Cannabis may still be used by some unaccomplished sadhus in India, but being a stoner is just as antithetical to pure spirituality as alcoholism is. There is NO difference. I say this by personal experience spanning 30 years, and by some 22 years as an addictions counselor.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Ped]
    #3267707 - 10/23/04 02:22 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
Nonetheless, it is an observable trend that drug users seem to gravitate toward systems of thought like Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Naturopathic medicine, environmentalism, and so on.  I'm trying to figure out the mechanics of that gravity.  What is going on here, with this trend?




It seems to me that if one doesn't see the relationship between Eastern thought -- Buddhism, for example -- and the psychedelic experience, then one has either to increase one's dosage and/or get thee back to thy cushion.  :wink:


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3267757 - 10/23/04 02:37 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

"for myself, for a brief time, being stoned on cannabis showed me that the ego-driven, anxiety-ridden mentality of American consumerism that I grew up incould be temporarily suspended."

This is what my first LSD trip did for me. I smoked plenty of grass in my teens and very early 20s, but to tell the truth it just made me hungry...then sleepy. I found nothing profound in it. It has been over 15 years since the last time I tried. So many of the guys (who were all great guys) I grew up with fell into the non-productive pattern of staying stoned, not working, lots of minor run-ins with the police for selling softcore drugs, and just being generally unambitious burnouts. A few I have spoken with the last few years expressed regret that they mispent their youth in such a passive manner. I lost over a decade to alcohol and I know what casual substance abuse can do. I recovered, but many old stoners I know (and have known) seem to have permenantly damaged their motivation for life. I feel the spirit with me at all times...I don't need a drug to feel this. I have tried to use entheogens to enhance my life, and my use is about 3 times a year these days. These are well planned events that are designed to maximize the experience. Psychedelics are self limiting, but marijuana allows one to stay stoned 24-7. This is bound to have chronic results.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3268147 - 10/23/04 04:27 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Well said!


--------------------
The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.


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OfflineCrazyShroomMan
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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: tak]
    #3268179 - 10/23/04 04:37 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I beg to differ.  :stoned: :rasta: :thumbup:


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3268476 - 10/23/04 06:06 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

The hippy New Age era in the 60's found personal truths through the use of drugs and upon reading Buddhist/Taoist texts found out that others have found the same deconditioned truths. The difference was the medium in receiving the message. Drugs are not the way to enlightenment but they can help you decondition your mind which can show you the Way.

Ever since hearing about the Tao when I was 12 from a tape I found on the ground, I started very early seeking peace within my mind.

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
This is what my first LSD trip did for me. I smoked plenty of grass in my teens and very early 20s, but to tell the truth it just made me hungry...then sleepy. I found nothing profound in it. It has been over 15 years since the last time I tried. So many of the guys (who were all great guys) I grew up with fell into the non-productive pattern of staying stoned, not working, lots of minor run-ins with the police for selling softcore drugs, and just being generally unambitious burnouts. A few I have spoken with the last few years expressed regret that they mispent their youth in such a passive manner. I lost over a decade to alcohol and I know what casual substance abuse can do. I recovered, but many old stoners I know (and have known) seem to have permenantly damaged their motivation for life. I feel the spirit with me at all times...I don't need a drug to feel this. I have tried to use entheogens to enhance my life, and my use is about 3 times a year these days. These are well planned events that are designed to maximize the experience. Psychedelics are self limiting, but marijuana allows one to stay stoned 24-7. This is bound to have chronic results.




I'm struggling with this thought, Hue. I no longer smoke marijuana but I did for a good 4 years, constantly. It was merely a filler for a horrible high-school induced depression. I dont care passionately for anything anymore, but I am responsible and I make sure of that. I find it incredibly hard to feel joy, sorrow, or anything upon completing tasks and I get no satisfaction from what I accomplish. Its like my mind is always in the Void...I'm very focused at what I am doing but nothing inspires emotions from me. I dont know if this is good or bad but I cannot relate to anyone because of it.

Anyone I ask for help cannot help me as they dont see the problem, hell I dont see it myself, but it apparent in the quality of my relationships with others.

Anyone have any ideas?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: psyka]
    #3268496 - 10/23/04 06:13 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think 4 years of marijuana use is "chronic". My wife suffers from depression off and on and it sounds like you have it. Depression tends to rob one of satisfaction.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Anonymous

Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3268506 - 10/23/04 06:15 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

the "damaged motivation" thing is a stereotype. there are many, many more people who use or have used marijuana responsibly over time and with moderation and who are hard working, tax paying, productive members of society... there are many more of these than there are chronic mj users who become demotivated and fall out of the world.

alcoholism is a much bigger beast imo. i've never known anyone who's died from chronic mj smoking.

neither are much of a "spiritual path" tho, in themselves.


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3268542 - 10/23/04 06:25 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not depressed, though. I'm never sad or angry. I was diagnosed with chronic depression and bipolar disorder. Perhaps I dont really understand what depression is?


Edited by psyka (10/23/04 06:26 PM)


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: ]
    #3268562 - 10/23/04 06:31 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

"used marijuana responsibly over time and with moderation"

I did not say moderate users would suffer this problem. I was discussing chronic use. I also realize that demotivated people are attracted to drugs. I think that marijuana can be used responsibly as can alcohol. I am countering the argument I see constantly on this forum that states:
A: Marijuana users are inherantly more spiritual than others.
B: Chronic marijuana use is healthy and a "party" oriented lifestyle=spiritual lifestyle.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: psyka]
    #3268573 - 10/23/04 06:33 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

The symptoms you describe are symptoms of depression. The effects are not alway evidenced by feeling sad, sometimes a lack of feeling indicates it. If you have been diagnosed with it get treated, by all means, don't waste your time as life is too short to go around feeling dead already. Many allow pride to interfere with getting help and this is ridiculous. My brother refused treatment for schizophrenia because he did not like the stigma of being "crazy". It is only an illness like the flu. After treatment he was much happier.


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Ped]
    #3268632 - 10/23/04 06:45 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

You jumped the gun, Ped. Before we can ask "Why are they related?", one must ask, "Are they related?"


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3268642 - 10/23/04 06:46 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

thank you for replying to my post.


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3268712 - 10/23/04 07:06 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

be scared

and visit your doctor immediately


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: deff]
    #3268737 - 10/23/04 07:11 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

What are you referencing? If you disagree then say so. Leaving cryptic comments communicates little.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3268799 - 10/23/04 07:30 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Deff is the master of the koan...  :smile:


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Swami]
    #3269354 - 10/23/04 11:03 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

My ass.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3270349 - 10/24/04 04:19 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

the connection is that religions like hinduism have their roots in mysticism stemming from drug use, in a way these religions are built on the religious experience facilitated by the drug or other altered states of mind - fasting etc. so its quite natural that there is a perceived connection because there is.

good old indian skunk.


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: kbilly]
    #3270416 - 10/24/04 04:44 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

That means nothing. Cannabis and hashish were popular in the ancient mid-east and parts of Africa. They hardly adopted Eastern thinking because of a flower. A seemingly regional correlation is not indicative of a causal link.


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Ped]
    #3270763 - 10/24/04 08:44 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Well, simply said, because one validates the experiences gained from the other.
From my perspective, people who have had profound psychedelic experiences often need to reevaluate a lot of what they previously took for granted about themselves and the world. And in that state of mind, people look for grounding, for some kind of validity to their experiences and subsequent thoughts, insights and uncertainties.
Within the western thoughtworld and heritage there is very little that can serve this purpose. Perhaps a few obscure philosophers, maybe a fantasy writer or two, some esoteric mathematics and new age physics, and very little else.

Many psychedelic experiences gave me insights into myself and the world of perceptions outside of myself which i later found and recognised in many eastern philosophies. Its one thing to read about wisdom, its another to recognise what is written from a background of personal experience. They validated my own experiences and expanded on them.

Personally, i think that the main connection here is experience. Psychedelics have the ability to bring a person to states of mind which are described in eastern philosophies (..i must underline here that i think it rather bland to generalise the multitude of traditions into one common 'eastern philosophies' denomenator..) and even though in the end, psychedelics are no 'shortcut' they definatly can function as a light along the path, or better, road signs pointing out where to go, and equally as important, where not to go.
If you seperate both the escapism and hedonism from psychedelics, whats left is a conscious search into mind and awareness. Into growing into a higher consciousness and ultimate awakening, which is arguably a common focus in both the psychedelic movement and many eastern traditions.


--------------------
Thought is born blind but Mind knows what is Seeing


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: kbilly]
    #3270915 - 10/24/04 11:12 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Smoking marijuana is in no way spiritual. That is like saying I had a religious experience after drinking a twelve pack of Budweiser. Both experiences are pleasant, but lack depth. Partying is not spiritual. Marijuana is also NOT a psychedelic.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3270925 - 10/24/04 11:22 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

While marijuana is inert in and of itself, the act of consuming it brings whole new meanings to the flower.

Intent shapes reaction (under certain conditions :wink:). Using marijuana to escape from a reality one is conditioned into, will usually do just that. Using marijuana to party will usually be fun. Using marijuana to meditate can often be verrry deep. Quite a versatile little plant :smile:

But again, the plant is neutral in all of these situations. The person, with the help of the plant's consumption effects, is the one actually manifesting these changes. The same person, without smoking the pot, would probably still strive towards these things. Whether or not the pot helps them, is completely dependant upon the person to determine. :smile:

With that said, marijuana to me is a great relaxing passtime, and often forces me into unexpected and very deep meditative mindsets. However, the overall 'burn out' feel to using it a lot does not make up for these pleasurable effects, and so I use it sparingly :smile:


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Invisiblechunder
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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Ped]
    #3271326 - 10/24/04 02:23 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

To me, marijuana and specifically mushrooms were the first experiences I had where I was faced with something that was completely outside my reality tunnel ---I couldn't organize the experience and fit it into any of my beliefs. It tore my belief system down, and since then I've been a quest to explore and understand more about consciousness and experience. This inevitably leads people to eastern thought, because eastern thought is magnificent for finding models that you can use to think about consciousness and the nature of experience. These models seemed more opened ended, more powerful as tools of thought, than any western materialist philosophy I'd ever come across.

But yeah, maybe drugs and eastern thought are linked because the drug experience often introduces people to a reality that goes against what they thought possible, and this drives them to understand it by exploring different models of reality. Good thread!


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Re: NOT Spiritual? [Re: Swami]
    #3273539 - 10/25/04 12:37 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Hue, ok so if dope isnt spiritual why is there a relgion based on its use?
heard of rastas, apparently its not spiritual for you but for them it is.


Edited by kbilly (10/25/04 05:19 PM)


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: kbilly]
    #3273600 - 10/25/04 12:55 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

i like brussel sprouts...

eating is a spiritual experience for me, because i feel like im sustaing my life force, or absorbing another life force (heh).

so eating brussel sprouts is a spiritual experience for me.

if you dont like brussel sprouts does that make you not spiritual? no.

if you do like brussel sprouts but do not think eating is spiritual, does that make brussel sprouts not spiritual?

man, im blowing my own mind over here.

peace!


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



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Offlinekbilly
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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Todcasil]
    #3274303 - 10/25/04 06:10 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

dont lie man your stoned thats why eating brussel sprouts is spiritual...

for me eating pussy is spiritual :wink:

no, i was pointing the rastas out to hue who is very sure its not spiritual at all. next time i see them i gonna have to put them straight, and get them to a real church. hes a swami after all.


Edited by kbilly (10/25/04 05:20 PM)


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: kbilly]
    #3274349 - 10/25/04 06:35 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

i might be tired and mistaken but don't the rastas consider smoking pot about the same as catholics consider drinking wine durin communion
part of the faith, but not the faith itself


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3274468 - 10/25/04 08:38 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

isnt that part of the faith spiritual?

and btw POT: never touch the stuff  :rasta:


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Todcasil]
    #3274670 - 10/25/04 10:54 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

coyot has been nothing but nuisance on this forum

Ped, im not quite sure what your trying to prove, new age thought and drug use......... its like spagetti and meat balls mate, if your liberated you tend to do liberated things.

I think ganja and other substances bring out the magick that was long forgotten. It contradicts conservative dominant belief systems so smokers are banished and prosecuted and labeled as 'bad'.

As for Eastern spiritrual practises its just another road towards the same destination. If you like your vibes zen flavoured you worship Buddha. Plus, India and Himalayas is where hash has been revolutionised. Surely people smoked columbian and mexican grown but manali is what im on about. 30 years ago hash was unknown to the outsiders. Only illuminatuses and armchair theorists would smoke black afghani late at night and deep in thought.

Anyways, i like it all, Buddhas and monks and zen and the rest. bring out a big Buddha scalpture and put it in my living room.

Btw you want to watch out for eastern hash cut with opium - no good. Go for premium manali from reputable rubbers only


--------------------
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3274676 - 10/25/04 10:56 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Smoking marijuana is in no way spiritual. That is like saying I had a religious experience after drinking a twelve pack of Budweiser. Both experiences are pleasant, but lack depth. Partying is not spiritual. Marijuana is also NOT a psychedelic.




"Smoking marijuana is in no way spiritual"... "smoking marijuana is in no way spiritual".....  :confused:

For the most part, I have agreed with a lot of what you have been saying in this thread, up until this reply that I am quoting from... Let the fun begin.. :evil:

I've personally always thought that spirituality is always concerned with the personal experience, what occurs in the mind, the thoughts and feelings. Not only, then, is it very illogical and sort of ignorant (sorry  :tongue:) to say "marijuana is in no way spiritual". Especially since we are discussing experiences with marijuana, which, as I will get to in a moment, does carry a possibillity of allowing deeper spiritual experiences on it. Saying that anything at all is "in no way spiritual" is also illogical and ignorant.

As marijuana (was just listening to a recording by Timothy Leary yesterday, and he discussed the effects of marijuana...  :laugh:) brings more focus into the moment, and sort of turbo-charges our incoming inputs from our senses (more sensation is experienced consciously, in the moment), it is certainly able to easily allow spiritual experiences. Awareness and focus are right here, right now, and one feels more from their senses. One becomes more aware of their thoughts. Perceptions are altered.  :mushroom2:

Now, to me, that sounds like the beginnings of a profound, satisfying, deep spiritual experience (depending on how the person uses it). It doesn't take as much effort for one to bring more consciousness into the moment and to the senses when on marijuana. It is obviously a tool that we can use as we wish, including (quite aptly) for spiritual experiences.

So it is at least necessary to acknowledge that marijuana can be used to spiritual ends. I would also like to take the moment to note that, from my perspective, spirituality comes entirely from one's own mind, and that it is absolutely not inherent in any physical object (although, of course, some allow one to pursue spiritual experiences more easily). Spirituality is entirely about a state of being.

"Partying is not spiritual". Ever been to a party? It seems to me that interacting with a collection of other human beings in a relaxed setting is definitely going to allow spiritual experiences. Perhaps not from a "deep, silent, individual" aspect, but there is obviously many different kinds of spirituality, many different experiences that can have different, meaningful spiritiual aspects to them. A balance between different experiences could also be seen as a good thing.

Nothing like getting together with other humans and enjoying being human, after all.....  :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
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I wouldn't fear
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Like being here
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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Jalruza]
    #3274688 - 10/25/04 11:00 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ewok said:

Ped, im not quite sure what your trying to prove, new age thought and drug use......... its like spagetti and meat balls mate, if your liberated you tend to do liberated things.






Maybe this is the answer to the original question?  It's fairly simplistic... and isn't that the core of eastern thought?  Simplicity?    :grin:


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Ped]
    #3274704 - 10/25/04 11:07 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

the reason for the relation lies in the fact these religions are all associated with an awareness of some mystical truth that is similar to what one may experience when they're high.


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Ped]
    #3274910 - 10/25/04 12:45 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I think it's mostly for cultural reasons. I'm sure that the experiences brought on by meditation, and by the use of marijuana or other drugs can be compared, but the reason people associate the two is because both were made mainstream at around the same time, by the same subcultures.

In the 60's, pot became popular, and so did "alternative" religion and spirituality. Hippies were smoking pot, getting into Buddhism, or Krishna, or a handful of other types of spiritual thought.

I'm not sure that the association goes a whole lot much deeper than that, but it could be said that people who enjoy the peaceful, stoned mindset, would enjoy the peaceful, meditative aspects of these religions.


--------------------
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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Swami]
    #3275015 - 10/25/04 01:33 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
You jumped the gun, Ped. Before we can ask "Why are they related?", one must ask, "Are they related?"




Again you are rebelling against the obvious, Swami.


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Re: Eastern Thought & Dope Smoking: Why are they related? [Re: Jalruza]
    #3275858 - 10/25/04 05:29 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

SHINTOISM (Japan) Marijuana was used for the binding together of married couples, to drive away evil spirits, and was thought to create laughter and happiness in marriage.

HINDUISM (India) The God Shiva is said "to have brought Marijuana from the Himalayas for human enjoyment and enlightenment." The Sardu Priests travel throughout India and the world sharing "chillum" pipes filled with Marijuana, sometimes blended with other substances. In the Bhagavad-gita, Krishna states, "I am the healing herb" (Ch. 9:16), while the Bhagarat-purana Fifth Canto describes hashish in explicitly sexual terms.

BUDDHISTS (Tibet, India, and China)From the 5th Century B.C.E. on ritually used Marijuana; initiation rites and mystical experiences were (are) common in many Chinese Buddhist Sects. Some Tibetan Buddhists and lamas (priests) consider Marijuana their most holy plant. Many Buddhist traditions, writings, and beliefs indicate that "Siddhartha" (the Buddha) himself, used and ate nothing but hemp and its seeds for six years prior to announcing (discovering) his truths and becoming the Buddha (Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path).

ZOROASTRIANS or Magi (Persia, circa 8th to 7th Centuries B.C.E. to 3rd to 4th Centuries C.E.), it is widely believed by many Christian scholars, commentators, etc., that the three "Magi" or Wise Men who attended the birth of Christ were cult references to the Zoroastrians. The Zoroastrian religion was based (at least on the surface) on the entire Marijuana plant, the chief religious sacrament of its priest class, and its most important medicine, (e.g., obstetrics, incense rites, anointing and christening oils), as well as lighting or fire oils in their secular world. The word "magic" is generally considered derived from the Zoroastrians "Magi."

The ESSENES (ancient Israeli sect of extreme Hebrewites approx. 200 B.C.E. to 73 C.E.) used hemp medicinally, as did the THERAPUTEA (Egypt), from whom we get the term "therapeutic." Both are believed by some scholars to be disciples of, or in a brotherhood with, the priests/magician of the Zoroastrians.

EARLY JEWS As part of their holy Friday night services in the Temple of Solomon, 60-80,000 men ritually passed around and inhaled 20,000 incense burners filled with kaneh bosm (Marijuana), before returning home for the largest meal of the week.

SUFIS OF ISLAM (Middle East)Moslem "mystical" priests who have taught, used, and extolled Marijuana for divine revelation, insight, and oneness with Allah, for at least the last 1,000 years. Many Moslem and world scholars believe the mysticism of the Sufi Priests was actually that of the Zoroastrians who survived Moslem conquests of the 7th and 8th Centuries C.E. and subsequent conversion (change your religion and give up liquor or be beheaded).

COPTIC CHRISTIAN (Egypt/Ethiopia)Some sects believe the sacred "green herb of the field" in the Bible ("I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more." Ezekiel 34:29) and the Biblical secret incenses, sweet incenses, and anointing oils to be Marijuana.

The BANTUS (Africa) had secret Dagga Cults,* societies which restricted Marijuana use to the ruling men. The Pygmies, Zulus, and Hottentots all found it an indispensable medication for cramps, epilepsy, and gout, and as a religious sacrament.
*Their "Dagga" cults believed Holy Marijuana was brought to earth by the Gods, in particular from the "Two Dog Star" system that we call Sirius A and B. "Dagga" literally means "cannabis." (Marijuana) Interestingly, the surviving Indo-European word for the plant can also be read as "canna," "reed" and "bi," "two," as well as 'canna,' as in canine; and 'bis,' meaning two (bi) ? "Two Dogs."

The RASTAFARIANS (Jamaica and elsewhere) are a contemporary religious group that uses "ganja" as its sacred sacrament to communicate with God (Jah).


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: NOT Spiritual? [Re: kbilly]
    #3275984 - 10/25/04 06:13 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

It doesn't matter if a few hundred people want to call chronic marijuana use a religion. You are probably refering to Rastafarians, who typically use marijuana daily. This is no more spiritual than staying drunk all of the time, and it is terrible for one's respiratory health. It is curious that Rastafarians do not recieve a legal exemption for marijuana like the Native American Church does for Peyote...


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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the strange [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3276499 - 10/25/04 08:29 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Facing the strange is something a child does as it struggles with the universe, learning and playing and suffering and loving.
when you are stoned you face the strange and relive some of the familiar strange.
Then, on the other hand, the meditation masters immerse in the moment suspending habit and facing the strange.
Those who can do it without drugs have consistent perspective on this "being as a child".

On drugs that resonance is clear. (habit is suspended, one faces the strange)
Coming off the drug effect, however, one re-enters the habits grabbing at souvenirs, largely unable to decipher which are pertinent and which are just vacuous.

learning to meditate and thus obtain a more consistent perspective provides way less embarassment when it comes to explaining the souvenirs that you have grabbed.

one learns to let go.


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Offlinekbilly
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Re: the strange [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3278388 - 10/26/04 07:27 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

did you even read my post?
this thread is about why there is a relation between easterm relgion and dope, and as my last point shows many eastern religions have their very existence due to the fact that mystics used dope for spiritual purposes.

"It doesn't matter if a few hundred people want to call chronic marijuana use a religion" uhm? 700 000 rastafarians thats 7000 few hundreds. and that just the rastas.

in africa most of the native religions originate from some form of drug use very often dope.

HINDUISM (India) The God Shiva is said "to have brought Marijuana from the Himalayas for human enjoyment and enlightenment.

to say that dope has no spiritual value is just bullshit, maybe for you but doesnt but does it have to have none for everybody else.

the idea that your so right and that everybody else has to be wrong tells me you know shit about spirituality anyway, so how would you know.


Edited by kbilly (10/26/04 07:40 AM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: NOT Spiritual? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3278850 - 10/26/04 11:50 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
It is curious that Rastafarians do not recieve a legal exemption for marijuana like the Native American Church does for Peyote...




No it isn't. Peyote has been a sacrament of certain Native American tribes for thousands of years, and not allowing them to partake in it is a direct violation of their right to practice their religion. It treads on their culture, and as the American government has done exactly that (including, of course, killing the majority of them and herding the rest of them in), it is a touchy subject nowadays. And as peyote doesn't do much of any harm and isn't in the position to be widely distributed or profited from, the government really doesn't lose anything by allowing these certain Native Americans to cultivate and use peyote, and it looks better for allowing them to continue their culture and traditions. Not only that, but peyote is also very effective at treating alcoholism in said Native Americans...

Rastafarians, however, have no real presence in America. There isn't as many, and they don't have the history that Native Americans do. Not only that, but the government doesn't look bad to the majority of voters for not allowing them to smoke dope. etc. etc. etc....I don't know much about Rastafarianism, so what I just said is just what I would imagine to be why... :grin:

Anyways, the reasons why one religion is allowed their sacrament of choice and the other isn't doesn't really have anything to do with the sacrament itself, in the context of how "effective" or "spiritual" the sacrament is. If that is what you were intending with your quoted statement above, I think you need to think about it for awhile.

But ja, I don't recommend staying stoned all the time, but I also don't recommend staying sober all the time. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleNariusFractal
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Re: NOT Spiritual? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3279490 - 10/26/04 02:55 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Who are you, God? How can you tell me what is spiritual?


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You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.


Edited by sheister (10/26/04 02:55 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: NOT Spiritual? [Re: NariusFractal]
    #3279672 - 10/26/04 03:43 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I can't believe it you nailed it exactly!!!! I am not just God, but God Almighty in my universe!!! No, I only express MY OPINION which is based on my exprience...your mileage may vary. I am not asking for agreement here so chill out.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleNariusFractal
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Re: NOT Spiritual? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3281988 - 10/27/04 12:10 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

the bashing of other's beliefs and spirituality is not a good thing


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You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.


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