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InvisibleMoonshoe
Blue Mantis
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Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
Pure Holy High
    #5734181 - 06/10/06 12:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)




Ahhhhhh that potent joy! to be alive... and in communication with a soul like you. A fantastic dream indeed.

So much light, so much clarity. Dreaming aloud with people you love is crucial i think... this networking, and sharing of ideas, is what will usher this revolution in to the world at large.

Oh shit! i just remembered something:

WE ARE GOING TO SAVE THE WORLD.

not that it realy needs saving. But i was just reminded that we have in our hands and in our hearts and in our minds a sacred fire, given by god to guide the human race in this time and place. We hold the essential ingredient, the creative spark empowered by faith. Dreaming, dreaming is happening everywhere. Me and my dad dream of eco-sustainable cabin properties, farming collectives, do it yourself, grow it yourself living of animals and humans in peacefull harmony. SO many crucial pieces are being given all the time.

Every instant is a new download of the vital information. The information that will allow us to construct a new paradigm and model for living for a new age, a way to heal or transform the gaian (earth) experiment.

Or at least... we could do this. OR perhaps we will just forge for ourselves perfect tranquil dreams. perhaps saving ourselves and saving the world are one and the same. But i do know this: all change begins within. be the change you want to see, etc. The spread is natural!

oh god, its all so clear now. If we think clear, breathe clear, dream clear, dance clear, then the world is already saved. Every instant we are defining our realities, choosing one out of an infinite number of possible realities from the eternal and featureless flux. If we simply remain in a state of love, a state of rememberance of god, then we naturally select the highest, the holiest of those possible worlds, and so again and again we find ourselves surrounded by beauty when we could just as easily be living in hell.

This is what they call "grace"

can you feel it?

HOLY FUCKING LAMB OF GOD!

i am the sourceless source of all creation! from our awakened minds flow the psychedelic colours and fluxes of an infinite universe.

ok... im getting strung out now! but im so excited, because i FEEL it now, i feel and understand!

We really are these shamans in our dream caves...

So keep dreaming! let that be your main thought! All you need to do is ENVISION it! see it, so that it can be!

remember

IF YOU CAN CONCIEVE IT YOU CAN BELIEVE IT

IF YOU CAN BELIEVE IT, YOU CAN PERCIEVE IT

simple as that. Concieve, believe, percieve

thought+faith = reality

We love you

End transmission


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
Re: Pure Holy High [Re: Moonshoe]
    #5735190 - 06/10/06 06:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
IF YOU CAN CONCIEVE IT YOU CAN BELIEVE IT

IF YOU CAN BELIEVE IT, YOU CAN PERCIEVE IT

simple as that. Concieve, believe, percieve

thought+faith = reality





Wow, you must be dyslexic too. :rolleyes:

Reality unfolds by its own accord. We directly perceive reality, and then we conceptualize in order to build a representation of reality with which we navigate reality. Belief isn't very effective in this process, either.

To propose that perception follows all of the abstract mental processes  in the order of operations deeply underscores the nature of a mind that is obscured from reality. To act in such a way is to decide what a movie is about and firmly believe that the movie is about what you have decided it to be before you have even watched the movie. :lol:

Any mind that functions in such a manner probably has difficulty in implementing their plans and goals, as they truly live in an illusory, imaginative world which does not reflect the true world, which is a sea full of riptides of cause and effect, presented as it is. If one does not directly perceive reality for what it is, then one will not be able to succesfully navigate the flows in the water, nor have a sense of "where one is at", or where anything else is, and will not be very capable of being "where one is at" or in getting there.

I'd propose opening your eyes first and keeping the thought and belief to an absolute, practical minimum. :smirk:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSchwammel
Auk

Registered: 12/10/05
Posts: 845
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: Pure Holy High [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5735224 - 06/10/06 07:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Thank you for the wonderful posts,,,


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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery

Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Pure Holy High [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5735282 - 06/10/06 07:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:

To act in such a way is to decide what a movie is about and firmly believe that the movie is about what you have decided it to be before you have even watched the movie. :lol:




That could be called anticipation. And you could be right or wrong... but this is another matter. Now you either weren't able to read between the lines (which I'm quite sure you didn't), or you just wanted to contradict Moonshoe... for some reason.
My conclusion after I read what he said there was that we can really change the world, which is not really such a novelty since we're doing that since... we're here. We made our own way of living, our set of rules... etc, as I'm sure you can see. And we also made our problems, possible dangers and so on. All these came from our minds, from our imagination.
So yes, he is right... we can change everything, and he's not talking about a movie or some stupid ambition in which he can sustain that Everest, for example must be a beach.
What you did is you got out of the context a piece of writing which can be interpreted in a million ways.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
Re: Pure Holy High [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #5735441 - 06/10/06 08:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
That could be called anticipation.




Whatever term you wish to refer to it in order to please you, but such an action seperates oneself from the direct perception and experience of reality, preventing one from being able to truly experience reality for what it is, entirely immersed in the present moment, fully aware...

Quote:


And you could be right or wrong... but this is another matter.




No, it is this matter. Either we perceive reality first and foremost, before our mental processes begin interpreting and conceptualizing a representation of reality, or we don't. He made a straightforward proclamation regarding the order of operations concerning our perception of reality, and I directly addressed the issue.

Quote:


Now you either weren't able to read between the lines (which I'm quite sure you didn't), or you just wanted to contradict Moonshoe... for some reason.




Perhaps I proposed an alternate viewpoint on the matter because, from my perspective, that of the primacy of existence, and that of the scientific analysis of how we collect sensory data from our sensory devices' interaction with reality, his statements were incorrect. "For some reason.."... the reason being that he was wrong. :smirk:

And what of "reading between the lines"? Was I suspossed to exclaim "Groovy, man, I felt your vibrations! You were saying that we, like, change things, but in doing so, you completely misrepresented the way we perceive reality, but that's all right, because I can read between the lines!"? :grin:


Quote:


My conclusion after I read what he said there was that we can really change the world, which is not really such a novelty since we're doing that since...




Super. Great. Thanks for sharing. I, however, found reason to address other points implied by his post, to express thoughts and ideas that were different. This doesn't mean that I "read the post out of context". Discussion can exist on a variety of levels and can be directed towards a variety of related points. I didn't feel the need to state "oh, he is saying we can change things, I better simply affirm that and disregard the blatant misunderstanding that was expressed as well". :shrug:

Quote:


And we also made our problems, possible dangers and so on. All these came from our minds, from our imagination.




Of course, naturally. We utilize our minds. Great.

Quote:


So yes, he is right...




Haha, not as such, no.

Quote:


we can change everything, and he's not talking about a movie or some stupid ambition in which he can sustain that Everest, for example must be a beach.




All right, I will make it simple for you, so that you do not need to scroll back up again (hey, that takes effort) in order to read the discussion again.

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
IF YOU CAN CONCIEVE IT YOU CAN BELIEVE IT

IF YOU CAN BELIEVE IT, YOU CAN PERCIEVE IT

simple as that. Concieve, believe, percieve

thought+faith = reality





Quote:

fireworks_god said:
To propose that perception follows all of the abstract mental processes in the order of operations deeply underscores the nature of a mind that is obscured from reality. To act in such a way is to decide what a movie is about and firmly believe that the movie is about what you have decided it to be before you have even watched the movie.




I don't know how to make it any more clear for you. He clearly proposes that reality is created by us through our conceptions and our beliefs, that we perceive as a result of doing so. Uh, no, that isn't how it works. We directly perceive reality. We then interpret our sensory data obtained from reality and form a mental representation of it. We then take such into consideration, all the while continously, directly perceiving reality, and engage in behavior that influences the manner in which reality unfolds.

I've already raised my points on the issue. You have no ground upon which to question my points or to attempt to suggest that my points are "out of context". We are allowed to raise viewpoints that might even directly refute others viewpoints, and the purpose in doing so is for the benefit of all involved, not ".. for some reason". Engage in productive discussion, by all means, but don't sit on the sidelines and be all like "you read that wrong! out of context!" :lol:


Quote:


What you did is you got out of the context a piece of writing which can be interpreted in a million ways.




Is that what I did? To me, "which can be interpreted in a million ways" signifies that the piece of writing was perhaps broad, vauge, ambigious. Obviously, if something can be interpreted in a million ways, then there isn't exactly much of a context that one could get it out of, eh? :rolleyes:

I'd recommend saving the analysis of "what I did" for yo' momma. :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Pure Holy High [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5735518 - 06/10/06 08:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

OMG you REALLY need to be right. I think I've overread "let me make it clear for you" in your post...
Yes, maybe the guy was swept away by the idea and went too far with some affirmations, but I don't really see why you pointed it out so agressive, deniyng the entire post.
You made CLEAR for me, I can undertand perfeclty what you sustain butmore then half of what you said containde words like
Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Whatever term you wish to refer to it in order to please you




and
Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Super. Great. Thanks for sharing




and also
Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Of course, naturally. We utilize our minds. Great.




Well you see what I mean. I think you got a little nervous that somedy
"dared" to contradict you... which you could very well explain calm and to the subject.
And also think you got too absorbed by the idea of being roght that well, I faind your post far beyond exagerated.
I usually like your post and I find them inteligent, but dude, you made a too big deal out of what happened here. Lol


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Edited by MushroomTrip (06/10/06 08:38 PM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
Re: Pure Holy High [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #5735568 - 06/10/06 08:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
OMG you REALLY need to be right.




Clearly and directly addressing points raised in discussion equates with "REALLY" needing to be right? Its perhaps too much to ask to participate in the discussion raised, or not, and to not continue to offer opinions on what other posters need, do, etc. etc. etc. etc.?


Quote:


Yes, maybe the guy was swept away by the idea and went too far with some affirmations, but I don't really see why you pointed it out so agressive, deniyng the entire post.




First and foremost, I didn't deny an entire post. Second off, I never implied an aggressive tone. Being thorough, direct, and engaged in expressing serious thought on a matter is not aggressive, nor is it evident of an overwhelming need to feel right on a matter. I duly apologize for not being so casual in discussion here, but it is what I come here for, and I enjoy the manner in which I participate in dicussion. :shrug:

Quote:


butmore then half of what you said containde words like....Well you see what I mean.




No, I do not see what you mean. What, exactly, do you mean?

Quote:


I think you got a little nervous that somedy 
"dared" to contradict you... which you could very well explain calm and to the subject.




Honestly, I do not concern myself with such, as I see the pursuit of such to be unfufilling and trivial. I think that you might contemplate giving up on your attempts to analyze other posters' personal character, as doing so is not exactly aligned with the purposes and intents of this forum, as expressed in the rules and guidelines of this forum. :wink:

Quote:


And also think you got too absorbed by the idea of being roght that well, I faind your post far beyond exagerated.




I think I actively engage myself in attempting to convey my precise thoughts in a matter that will most effectively make them available for others to understand. There is nothing wrong with ensuring that one clearly and pertinently makes one's point, certainly not in a forum involved with philosophy. As I have already stated, I enjoy the pursuit of such discussion, and I implore that you might consider joining the discussion at hand, instead of creating an off-topic discussion about me.

Quote:


I usually like your post and I find them inteligent, but dude, you made a too big deal out of what happened here. Lol




If that is your opinion, then so be it, but it is to be noted that I am not the one who made a deal out of what I had to contribute to this thread in the first place. :shocked:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Pure Holy High [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5735614 - 06/10/06 09:01 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
As I have already stated, I enjoy the pursuit of such discussion, and I implore that you might consider joining the discussion at hand, instead of creating an off-topic discussion about me.




Yeah I shoulnd't start an off-topic about you and I'm not going to continue it, all I've said it's been said and sorry if I was wrong but you clearly gave me the impression tahe your first rely ti what I said was somehow irritated.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
Re: Pure Holy High [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #5735632 - 06/10/06 09:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
you clearly gave me the impression tahe your first rely ti what I said was somehow irritated.




You may have intrepreted it as such, but I do not believe that I was irritated. If anything, I was enjoying the oppurtunity to get into some old fashioned debate. :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
Blue Mantis
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Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
Re: Pure Holy High [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5737330 - 06/11/06 09:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

:grin:

fireworks god... everything you experience is an inkblot. An inherently meaningless collection of photons hitting your retinas. What it is is what you make it. In this case, you have chosen to interperet my post in a way that is completely unique to you, and almost completely divorced from my original meaning.

everything you have said in reply to my post is in fact simply talking to yourself, responding to interpretations that you have fabricated.

You have missed my meaning. That is fine. My words are spoken, and it is for each reader to decide what, if anything, they get from them.

I love you all

Peace




--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (06/11/06 09:03 AM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Re: Pure Holy High [Re: Moonshoe]
    #5737348 - 06/11/06 09:22 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
What it is is what you make it. In this case, you have chosen to interperet my post in a way that is completely unique to you, and almost completely divorced from my original meaning.





If that is so, then what was your "original meaning"?

You clearly stated that one conceives, then believes, and then perceives. Perception is the first thing that occurs. One doesn't create reality, and to think that reality lies contingent upon oneself is rather egotistical.

Quote:


everything you have said in reply to my post is in fact simply talking to yourself, responding to interpretations that you have fabricated.




With such logic, it applies to everyone. Everyone perceives reality, forms interpretations of reality, and acts based upon the representations of reality that they have formed. Using such as a point agansit me doesn't make a lot of sense, I'm afraid. Everything you have expressed, referring to me and my posts, is simply you responding to your own interpretations that you have fabricated. See? It goes both ways. :lol: I'd suggest taking more responsibility for one's position than that. :wink:

Quote:


You have missed my meaning. That is fine. My words are spoken, and it is for each reader to decide what, if anything, they get from them.




It is remarkable that you are so dedicated to open discussion with others. :rolleyes: It must be that egotistical thing again.... "God has spoken, do with it what you will!". :lol:

I responded to specific points in order to offer clarification and a bit of reason for the benefit of others who might not take your sermon with a grain of salt. They'll read it and say "If I firmly believe reality is this, then it is, because I create it!", and they will miss out on any oppurtunity to discover spirituality, which implies bringing awareness into the present moment, directly perceiving reality first and foremost, and keeping the mind and its abstractions from obstructing such perception.

Once again, this forum is the place for engaged discussion, even if others wish to "miss the meaning" (which probably means stating "you are right, :thumbup:" and directly address matters that they feel need to be discussed, even if the viewpoints they propose differ from the ones presented.

Its simple, you stated perception occcurs after conception and belief, and I maintain that we perceive reality prior to any mental processing of the sensory data that results from such perception. You present that we create reality, and I maintain that we exist as an aspect of reality, directly perceiving reality, and then influencing the manner in which reality unfolds.

I dunno, perhaps if you are not too interested in discussing your ideas with others and you do not feel compelled to interact with others to convey your meaning ("my words are spoken, and it is their decision what they may take from them"), then you might consider posting in another, similar forum? I'm simply trying to grasp the point of preaching to a group that engages in discussion, when one doesn't wish to do likewise. :confused:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Pure Holy High [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5737765 - 06/11/06 12:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

One doesn't create reality, and to think that reality lies contingent upon oneself is rather egotistical.




Perhaps all of the misunderstanding here is related to how the word reality is defined.

FG, you sound like you are talking about observing neutrally objective reality and moon was talking about creating both subjective and objective reality, realizing they are the same thing to the creator, and perceiver of them.

Take objective reality on planet earth without humans. The trees, and oceans were here before we were. Now, you can directly perceive, houses made from trees and boats made from the trees to sail the oceans with. Who made those. Who is directly percieiving living in the houses and sailing the boats.

Humans did and are because they had beliefs about things they were able to confirm. They changed objective reality as a result.

An observer of this planet 30,000 years ago and now would see two different objective realities. The landscape has changed much because of what humans have been able to change by taking action with the raw materials of imagination, ideas, beliefs, and even raw physical materials. Plastic wasn't here back then nor was Kevlar.

Were the creators of those things rather egoistical? What did that comment mean?

Say you the observer see a classroom of 6 year olds sitting quiet and still. They are following "rules" made by humans. Is the reality you are directly perceiving a true or false one. The children are REALLY still, and Really quiet. This can be video taped for objective review later and proved.

People make up rules and then agree to follow them and change the experience of reality for themselves.

Without those rules, the kids would be jumping off their desks, rocking in their chairs, laughing, yelling, teasing, and so on.

How can you say with a straight face that humans do not create the direct reality you perceive as the observer?

Being caught up in "neutral observer mode", though interesting, is where we have removed ourselves from being an interactive part of creating what is real and can be real. It renders us powerless to effect things. Further, if in it to long, we can come to believe that we are powerless to effect things and then can find ourselves making comments like -

Quote:

One doesn't create reality, and to think that reality lies contingent upon oneself is rather egotistical.




I can see why someone posted wondering what your idea of logic is.

Watch for being stuck in observer mode as it's a powerless place to be. Noce place to visit for a rest, but not to live in while attached to a physical body.

If I am looking at an empty space in my yard, do you really believe, I can not change the shape of whats really there? Do you really believe that I can not put in a garden and fountain, a swimming pool, play set, or sand dune?

Do you really believe that I cannot make up rules for how others are to use the space, if myself and others also made up rules about property ownership and rights to do so?

And are not others living in compliance with those rules, creating that reality or not?

Say I decide to believe that being kind to others is an "ideal" way to live. Are you saying that my choosing to act in kindness will not change the landscape of the reality I experience nor have an effect on the reality of the others I am acting kindly towards?

Are you saying that I do not have the ability nor power to choose to share my apple pie with you in an act of kindness, or smash it into your face in an act of malice? I can choose to do either or something else and my choice will have an impact on the reality (what really objectively happened) that we both experience in that moment.

We do have the power to shape and create objective reality and we do it via our beliefs, ideas and ideals, making choices and taking action.

You have the power to decide how you will respond or react to my choice. We will be creating a symbiotic reality together with the pie.

Being the silent neutral observer is an interesting place to be and you can learn a lot from that place. It's also how we view reality objectively. Be careful not to slip into a belief that you do not exists as anything but that, nor does anyone else.

To believe that you, nor anyone else, has the power to "create reality and be a cause of how it will unfold" is how one can find themselves in a delusional state.

If I decide to put a garden with fountains into that empty space of yard, I am creating the unfolding of a reality, am I not? Or I can choose to just observe the space and see how it unfolds on its own. I would pretty much be watching grass and then weeds grow year after year.

True, we can watch reality  unfold without our effecting it. We can also choose how we, will it, to unfold for ourselves, by taking action on our ideals, with our beliefs of what can be, usually having come from our imagination and knowledge of how things are constructed.

Look around you at all that is human made and that can be verified? Even the intangible stuff like the signing and co-operation to act in accordance with Peace Treaties between Nations. Were the two Nations being "egotistical" to live by the peace treaty they developed and agreed to?

If you want to move up in management with your employer, that ideal reality isn't going to naturally unfold by itself. You will have to do things to make it happen.  You will have to create your future management, probable reality for yourself if it comes to be. You'll also have to believe it can be done or else why bother taking action to make it become real.

If anyone here has misunderstood you, can you please elaborate what you meant by this statement.-

Quote:

One doesn't create reality, and to think that reality lies contingent upon oneself is rather egotistical.




:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Pure Holy High [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5737841 - 06/11/06 12:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

In each of the examples you provided, the first step to creating a different reality was the accurate perception of the existing reality. F_g's point was:

Quote:

Fireworks_god said: If one does not directly perceive reality for what it is, then one will not be able to succesfully navigate the flows in the water, nor have a sense of "where one is at", or where anything else is, and will not be very capable of being "where one is at" or in getting there.




Thus the way in which we may create or interact with reality is: perceive current reality, conceive of an alternate reality, believe that we can take action to create that reality, TAKE ACTION on our vision and beliefs, then (finally) perceive the results of our actions.

Thought + Faith = reality is not a complete formula, as it omits the most important aspect: ACTION. Without value-based action, dreams are formless and insubstantial.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Pure Holy High [Re: Veritas]
    #5737938 - 06/11/06 01:01 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

That really wasn't what I was addressing in FW's post. See again his comment I quoted.

You did a nice job though of summing up his reply to your interpretation of it. I agree with the action part as well. Perhaps that is what others who had no conflict with moons post "read between the lines".

FG just could have just said then, "don't forget to take action or else, all of this is just fluff in the aethers. :wink:"

That's not really what I was replying too though. I still want FW to explain what he meant by what I quoted. That's what my reply to him was addressing, that quote.

According to what you clarified for him, bu using the formula you interpreted him to be sharing, we do indeed create our own realities and or can with the formula. He said we don't and can't and it was egoistical to believe so. :confused:

I also want to know what is egotistical (as if it's a bad thing) about that, if we actually are using the formula to make great things happen like peace negotiations.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineSprings
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Re: Pure Holy High [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5738144 - 06/11/06 02:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Im curious about the quote you bring up jiggy aswell as this quote:
Quote:

fireworksgod said: Reality unfolds by its own accord. We directly perceive reality, and then we conceptualize in order to build a representation of reality with which we navigate reality. Belief isn't very effective in this process, either.




This thread kinda confuses me, I like that. I dont fully understand your views, on what reality is fwg. This statement seems rather subjective to me. I dont think I see a difference between conceptualization and beleif.

Again Im not synching with much of this atm.

Peace. :laugh:


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Pure Holy High [Re: Springs]
    #5738474 - 06/11/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yes and hopefully he will address this stuff when he gets back on line.

Quote:

then we conceptualize in order to build a representation of reality




Same as saying

"then we form a belief in order to create a reality of it to experience"

Veritas cleared up the only technical error of the word Action not being added to the formula, which would be the only debatable thing.

We all know how this stuff works. Get an idea, from reality or the imagination, come up with a valid reason and way to make it doable, believe it's doable, then take action to make it for real.

Even a change of perspective can be a form of taking action. Physical action is not always required to create a different reality landscape to experience though. Often, just a simple change of perspective can take you from hells kitchen to heavens warm embrace.

I think that is the sort of action moon was mostly focusing on, actively changing ones perspective to create that reality to experience.

I think that part gets left out a lot, like in moons formula , because people don't think of shifting perspective as an active mental state and therefore, a form of taking positive action to create experiential change without leaving your chair.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Pure Holy High [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5738686 - 06/11/06 04:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
FG, you sound like you are talking about observing neutrally objective reality and moon was talking about creating both subjective and objective reality, realizing they are the same thing to the creator, and perceiver of them.




I do not differentiate between objective and subjective reality. Reality is all-encompassing. One's "subjective" reality is still based upon direct perception of reality first and foremost.

Quote:


How can you say with a straight face that humans do not create the direct reality you perceive as the observer?




Humans, quite simply, do not create reality. Humans exist as aspects of reality, and they interact with other aspects of reality in manners that influence and change the ways that reality unfolds, or comes into being.

Quote:


If anyone here has misunderstood you, can you please elaborate what you meant by this statement.-

One doesn't create reality, and to think that reality lies contingent upon oneself is rather egotistical.





My statement is that human beings do not create reality. Humans do not cause reality to exist, and human beings, with their beliefs and conceptions, do not produce reality.

If anything, reality is produced through them. :grin: "Reality" is ultimate, and in every single moment, we directly perceive reality (regardless of how aware we are of such perception). We perceive reality, and we process the information. We then engage in behavior that further unfolds reality.

Nothing I have expressed implies that we are not capable of initiating action, or behaving in manners that produce change within reality. We, essentially, are reality, but we are not responsible for creating reality.

I stated that it is egotistical to think that the creation of reality lies contingent upon us because it is a viewpoint that assumes that we precede reality, that we are responsible for reality. We certainly have a responsibility to further reality, as reality, but we are not responsible for reality.

Perhaps you have preconceptions that limit your ability to understand exactly what it is that I am saying, or maybe my elaboration on the matter will better clarify my point to you. As most of your post was in response to the notion that I am proposing a "silent observer mode" and something about giving up one's power to change things, I must assume that you weren't entirely aware of what exactly I was expressing. Where do we stand now on that?

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Pure Holy High [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5738811 - 06/11/06 05:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

See, it was a misunderstanding of how the word reality was being used. The difference you are clarifying is between the non experiential and the experiential.

Once that's clear, the same thing is basically being said in different words between all debating parties. Really, you just added more depth and more clarity to whats behind moons post.

Thats the difference between those who do not need to know how a car engine works to drive it and those, who want to know how the engine works as well.

It's all good. :thumbup: 

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Pure Holy High [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5739879 - 06/11/06 10:05 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

fireworks god, this is my point of view.

Every experience is what you make it. If you had come into this thread thinking "here is an opportunity to experience new ideas and learn about new conceptual possibilities" then that is what you would have done. Instead, you came into this thread, like many threads, thinking "here is an opportunity to exercise and demonstrate my cleverness"

and so, this is what you have done. This is the meaning of co-creating our realities. Jiggy, on the other hand, came in here with a different intent, and then manifested a different experience.

Ultimatly, you enjoy the verbal-duel game. You enjoy picking apart ideas, finding logical inconsisitencies, playing with fine details of expression... this is a game. It has its own arbitrarily decided rules, and you are good at it. But its your game, and im not playing with you.

"he who knows does not argue

he who argues does not know"

peace and love

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law



--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Pure Holy High [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5740672 - 06/12/06 03:22 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
If anything, reality is produced through them. :grin: "Reality" is ultimate, and in every single moment, we directly perceive reality (regardless of how aware we are of such perception). We perceive reality, and we process the information. We then engage in behavior that further unfolds reality.




So what you're implying is that we really have no power to decide something, that all of our actions and thoughts are transmitted to us, and we just "execute" like some kind of puppets. Which implies that even your statement is not what you think, but something that it's been... transmitted to you :confused:???
This doesn't really leaves much space to freedom, free will and personality. And by that you're denying even our responsibilities for our actions.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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