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The Holy Bible...
    #857370 -

I see some people taking quotes from the Bible in here and treating them as if they are the final word, absolute. I feel the need to speak up about this. Now don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with the Bible. Although I've only read very little of it, I can say it's a good book, full of spiritually uplifting and meaningful words. However, two points need to be made. First, many of the stories in the Bible are largely symbolic. They are not meant to be taken literally. For instance, let's take the story of Adam and Eve, and the Fruit of Knowledge. This is simply a metaphorical representation of the power of man's intellect to cause destruction and to alter nature. Whoever wrote this story realized that man's intelligence would ultimately be his greatest downfall, and so wrote this story to illustrate this. Second point: the stories in the Bible have been told and retold over and over again. As you know, stories tend to get greatly distorted over time, and the version you hear is likely a far cry from the original. I find it rather disturbing that people think that Adam and Eve and The Immaculate Conception are factual events rather than fictionalized and metaphorical representations of someone's philosophy. Being religious and reading the Bible is all good, but these stories need to be read into a little more carefully...what you see is not always what you get.


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Edited by psilo25 (09/01/02 03:41 PM)

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: psilo25]
    #857392 -

but it's the Holy Bible, it has to be true...  :confused:

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: chodamunky]
    #857399 -

oh...yeah...huhI forgot  :blush: 


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Stand up for your freedoms, join the fight against the War on Drugs!

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: psilo25]
    #857477 -

I understand your insite.

I agree.  It's sad how distorted the original scripture of the Bible has changed through politics and screwed up modern revisions.


The entire thing about taking stories literally or not.  Glad you pointed that out.  Many branches of Christianity differ based on which stories people take literally and which ones they don't.  Very, very confusing IMHO.  :confused:


 


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"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: psilo25]
    #857919 -


I have read it a few times, only to compare against the much earlier myths that most of the 'Passages' are culled from. but its no Authority on anything, save maybe how History is Written by those who Conquored last.

I'd like to add that the Bible is a good read, if you like difficult, abstract language. But its a mosaic of authors all writing at diffrent times in diffrent languages . Something must have been lost in the translation  Ack, Im sure this 'Christan Thing' will pass eventually. :smirk:
-OoD

 

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: psilo25]
    #857951 -

no offense...but most of you need to study your history a little bit more before making statements that are...not true?
the bible has been proved historically accurate. and most of it is yes...symbolic...and many translations are yes...messed up...but you see

wait, why am i even trying? lol, i'm sitting here talking to people who are going to chuckle and shake their heads saying, "you poor confused man" much like i did when i read what THEY wrote.
this is an arguement i can't win and shouldn't even enter...
i'll pray for ya. lol. :grin: :grin: but remeber , saying things like that aren't going to change any christians mind about the bible, and to us, it IS the word of God. and so we quote it. but to some of us...those christians that have been around for two thousand years and have a deeper faith that yourlocalbaptist church....the bible is not the FINAL word on religion, because the bible never says so. not in one place does it say so. in fact, it says opposite.
but the point is...i believe the bible because it is a part of my religion, but for the first three hundred years of the christian church, there was no bible. just the jewish torah...so what did christians believe? what was taught directly by christ and passed on down to the apostles....but the apostles did write down themselves what happened and what they saw...so certain things you mentioned (the immaculate conception) weren't just stories passed down. they are facts written down by men who knew mary personally before she was taken up to heaven (no record of her death.) 
peace.
 


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Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: psilo25]
    #858098 -

> Now don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with the Bible.

I do.  The Bible isn't true, but the Bible is part of reality and human history and must be accounted for.  It is a profound book!

The Bible contained a moral code and way of thought for an age that used it beneficially.  I wonder if the time has come for a new moral code, for our age.  But I doubt we'll ever have another Bible.  There are many places and cultures in the world that still benefit from Good Christian teachings.  :grin:


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: psilo25]
    #858137 -

The Bible is the word of God, but it's written in the language of Man.

The most important points are lost in the translation.

You know the saying: "The tao that can be written is not the true tao"

The same can apply to the bible.
If you want to know God, the bible is a good starting point but it will only take you as far as the limitations of human language allow.

Beyond that, it's just between you and God.

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #858158 -

(the immaculate conception) weren't just stories passed down. they are facts

According to the geneology given in the Bible...

the apostles did write down themselves what happened and what they saw...

and what are these writings you talk of?


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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #858247 -

LOL :smile:  I apologize up front if I offend anyone, but...come on!  The immaculate conception? A historical fact? Hah!  Please explain how a woman can give birth without ever engaging in sexual intercourse?  It's simply not possible.  It's a nice story and all, but that's about it.  It's a piece of Christian mythology, much like Zeus and Hades are pieces of Greek mythology.  I think most of us consider Greek mythology to be fiction, but those in ancient Greece believed in it just as strongly then as Christians believe in the Bible's mythology now.  In a thousand years, Christian mythology will be treated just as Greek mythology is treated now.  These are all just stories passed down from generation to generation as a means of explaining the essentially unexplainable.  It's the strong holding of the belief that these stories are facts that lead to so much ignorance and society ills. These stories will evolve and change over time, giving rise to new faiths and religions, none of which are more or less valid than the ones before them.  It's a continuous, ongoing process, and to hold on to any of them as absolute is to close your mind off from reality and new ideas.  "Believe in nothing" 


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Stand up for your freedoms, join the fight against the War on Drugs!

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: psilo25]
    #858327 -

Aliens wrote the Bible to keep us in line.
As we became more intelligent, responsible beings we naturally learned to govern ourselves without the help of a moral handbook.... well, most of us. :smile:   


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: psilo25]
    #858339 -

well, for people who have such smal minds that they can ONLY believe in religion, the world must be a confusing place. poor people.

well, for people who have such small minds that they can ONLY believe in science, the world most be a confusing place. poor people.

see, if you limit yourself to either one, you are just being a small minded fool. that's the way it is. :grin:
listen, many closed, small minded athiest have said that "God is dead" or "the twentieth century will be the end of religion as we know it." but it's so sad of any human being to read or hear those words and actually believe them. LOL...use your brain! look around! religion is larger now than ever before! they just completed a church is west africa that is now the largest church is the world! in the catholic church alone there are 1 billion people....that is one sixth of the worlds population. so if you think about muslims, buddhists, taoist, jews, protestants, catholics....you guys (athiest) are the minority. you always have been and always will be! lol :grin: that's why it doesn't really bother me when i hear people bash something about my religion. one, i know it's not true. and two....the minority will always have a need to console themselves.
so prove the immaculate conception is true? how about this...i could go to your house if you had a broken leg, put my hands of you, and possibly God wold heal you through me...instantly. and i could do with every tv camera in the world on me...and the whole world could watch your bone set itself and mend in a matter of seconds...but even if that was written down and recorded in every history book, it wouldn't matter. in two thousand years, they would say, " It's a nice story and all, but that's about it. It's a piece of Christian mythology, much like Zeus and Hades are pieces of Greek mythology. "
it doesn't matter what you prove. people will always doubt.
only when we know little things do we know anything; doubt grows with knowledge.
so really, i could argue and prove things to an athiest allllll day long. but i'm wasting my breath.  :wink: i'd rather be out helping the poor and helping the sick. don't have time to waste on intellectuals who are SO intellectual they don't believe in anything. so God bless dude. and peace be with your and yours bro. 


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Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #858353 -

well, for people who have such smal minds that they can ONLY believe in religion, the world must be a confusing place. poor people.

well, for people who have such small minds that they can ONLY believe in science, the world most be a confusing place. poor people.


The common thread here is dogmatic thinking.
Religion is inherently MORE dogmatic than science.
Argue all you want, it's the truth.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #858361 -

Well, first off, I never stated anywhere that I am an atheist. I'm more of an agnostic; I question everything, and accept very little as absolute truth. I have my own strong spiritual beliefs, and the basic principles of my beliefs are the same as those of all organized religion (love and compassion for fellow man, unity, etc.). These ideals are very important for human existence. Like I said, I think the Bible and other holy books are truly great, and can be very beneficial as spiritual guides, but they are not to be taken too literally. Too take these writings as absolute (just like taking any belief as absolute) will only lead to closed mindedness and ignorance. Closed mindedness and ignorance are largely the cause of problems in the world today. Let me make this clear, I DO NOT think that belief in the Bible is the single source of the worlds problems, it's just another potential source of closed mindedness and ignorance. ANY firm belief can cause this, not just religious beliefs.


--------------------
Stand up for your freedoms, join the fight against the War on Drugs!

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #858575 -

In reply to:
use your brain! look around! religion is larger now than ever before! they just completed a church is west africa that is now the largest church is the world! in the catholic church alone there are 1 billion people....that is one sixth of the worlds population. so if you think about muslims, buddhists, taoist, jews, protestants, catholics....you guys (athiest) are the minority.



LOL, why do you justify youself with the choice of the masses, that's "Argumentum ad populum" my friend and also the influence of the absurd of majorities taking place inside your mind.
Look whiterastahippie, no offense but i don't think you have the right to call anyone else small minded when you're the first one to hide behind your curtain of faith when some tries to argue some positions with you, and please if you consider yourself open minded stop stating that the immaculate conception is true, anything based on beliefs can not be proved as true.

In reply to:
it doesn't matter what you prove. people will always doubt.


Being humble to consider a possibility and smart enough not to believe in absolute truths, that's one of the most intelligent stuff you've ever wrote in this thread... you know..it works both ways, even for those who are in between, think about that.

In reply to:
don't have time to waste on intellectuals who are SO intellectual they don't believe in anything.



We're just arguing, why the inferiority complex ? Besides no one forces you to waste time on intellectuals, anyway why do you think intellectuals can't help the sick and the poor ? ... is it a full agenda , they don't have time or something ?

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #858632 -

The most important points are lost in the translation.

I disagree. While there is alot that is mistranslated, the most important aspects of Christianity involve repentence to the Lord, Heaven and Hell, God, Satan, Angels, etc. The general message is clear, despite the errors in translation. From my tradition, most of the distortion happened in the first two centuries after Jesus Christ. While there are limits on human language, God still manages to inspire with His written word on earth. God is definately beyond the comprehension of man. His message is not, and the fact that it is written should make us feel comfortable. Without it, alot of people would be following a path that is not good for them, or society.

Atheists like to think religion is dying, Sigmund Freud predicted that it would. All I know is that I will someday die, and that there are three mysterious mass religions that call for the worship of God that exist on earth today. All are very similiar, all are very alive, and when someone tells me they are fables of the ancients, I don't buy it that easily. As long as people continue to use their abilities of reason and logic, there will always be religion, and there will always be people who do not believe in God/religion.


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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #858635 -

no offense...but most of you need to study your history a little bit more before making statements that are...not true?

but the apostles did write down themselves what happened and what they saw

and where are these writings by the apostles to be found? It is highly questionable that the Gospel's were written by disciples who were eyewitnesses to the events of Christ's life.

The immaculate conception is contradicted by Paul.

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: Zahid]
    #858710 -

In reply to:
three mysterious mass religions that call for the worship of God that exist on earth today



Be humble and don't take all the credits. Abstract reasoning, logic and memory told me god existence is possible, going any further is to accept absolute truths, religious followers tend to think based in a very "ilogical" logic, i mean how can you logically prove a belief ? The only way is to leave the "door open", the "possibility", the "it could be" rather than some dogmas wich are strangely "logical" and thus selfish by essence because they are proposed as unique and blindly unquestionable.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

Edited by MAIA (09/02/02 10:20 AM)

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: MAIA]
    #858864 -

what makes you think i'm hiding behind my curtain of faith maia? i think that just because i believe something firmly doesn't amke me closed minded. considering where i've come from spiritually, i think i've been very open minded  (as you consider open mindedness) in the past. i've been agnostic. downright atheistic....protestant....even considered paganism...but you see, this works for me. ever thought that sometimes i just think it's hilarious to see people like you get all riled up when i make staements like i make and have made in the past? it's like it hurts some people to hear me state something i believe to be true as truth.
but ya know, to ME it is truth. so to me IT IS fact. i'm not forcing my opinion on anyone. and i guess sometimes in my zeal and my love for what i believe, i get a little preachy. sorry :grin:!!
anyway...you uh...talk about humilty an awful lot for how much pride you exhibit. but that's just a side note.
you want to know what is a basis for what i truely believe...waht everything else stems off of my spanish friend?
anything that has love or portrays love is true, because all truth is Gods truth. all love is Gods love. and anything else, that is false. but really, another thing maia...i really get to you don't i? :wink: i mean, i could be wrong, but when you get irked at me, it SEEMS (through your style of writing) that you are just pissed. lol...se la vi, can't make everybody happy right?
you do realize how much you assume though, right?
why the inferiority complex
how do you get that i have one?
Besides no one forces you to waste time on intellectuals, anyway why do you think intellectuals can't help the sick and the poor
wow, i said they couldn't? you must have read into a part of my self conscience that even I didn't knwo existed :wink:
and please if you consider yourself open minded stop stating that the immaculate conception is true
it's TRUE! TRUE TRUE TRUE TRUE TRUE!  :tongue: okay, so now being open minded means not believing in anything? lol...geez, some people will just never see eye to eye.
LOL, why do you justify youself with the choice of the masses, that's "Argumentum ad populum" my friend and also the influence of the absurd of majorities taking place inside your mind.
why? because the people who said that religion was a thing of the past, are basically saying the same thing. that we are dieing out...i'm just telling you, that we AREN'T dieing out. in fact, we are growing faster than any other group. i'm not saying, "i'm better because i'm bigger" damn you assume alot. :grin:
then again, maybe you don't, maybe i just don't state myself clearly enough. could be me...and if it is, i'm sorry...but it SEEMS like you assume alot. 


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Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: Sclorch]
    #858869 -

riiiiight....well, okay! :grin:

and on the same note in the same style you are saying things:
my religion is right...argue all you want! it's truth! :wink:
peace man. :grin: 


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Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: mirrorsaww]
    #858886 -

where are they to be found? vatican city dude. the originals? well, they fall apart like everything else.
but every time they start to fall apart, the church takes them and copies them word for word and places them back in the vaults for safekeeping for the next 500 years or so. they have never been lost. never been changed. and that's just a historical fact. the gospels and epistles were all written by the apostles or close followers of the apostles...and they have been saved ever since. but how can i convince you? i can't.

you could also see a dinsaur bone and calim that the evolutionist created it to prove evolution....if you don't want to believe something, you never will. the only fact is that people doubt.
me, i just study it all, find the most positive influence that's makes the most sense...and follow it.
if you have no trust in anything, then your life will be miserable. at least, that's what i've found.
lol, geez! you can say that goverments have changed history on that note! yeah, that's it...rome never existed, greece always ruled the world...and africa was a big zoo....but then aliens came and messed us all up. but the govenment doesn't want you to know that...so they changed history. doubt breeds doubt. and really, it doesn't matter. i will die. you will die...and then we'll all know how and why.
BUT I'M RIGHT neener neener :tongue: :grin: 


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Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: psilo25]
    #858902 -

I like the fact that many people can still identify with a 2000 year old book. I think it's kind of uplifting that we were still thinking the same kinds of thoughts back then (searching for truth and so on)...and that we still reach the same conclusions to this day (love thy neighbour).

However I find it a bit of a hassle to sift through all the bullshit to find the good stuff...especially when there are a lot of books around today that communicate the message a lot more clearly.

I just see it as very narrow minded to say that the bible (or any other book for that matter) is the ONLY truth...I can see no reason why anybody would believe that.

What I basically believe is that there is no truth that cannot be found internally.


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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #858907 -

hehe, whiterastahippie, you really are something else. :smile:  I gotta hand it to you for keeping strong faith in face of adversity.  I still consider it stifling and closed-minded to hold on to any one belief too strongly.  But, hey....whatever works for you, man.  If it makes you happy, then all the more power to ya.  Sclorch made a good point in another thread, though.  Basically, that you can read into a holy scripture without actually subscribing to the religion that embraces it.  I think that's one of the points I was trying to make.  I am not without beliefs, I am not without love (I guess...), but I will always try to keep an open mind about other possible beliefs.  That way I can continue to learn, expand, enjoy, and understand the beliefs of others.  The Bible is full of great and interesting beliefs, none of which I hold on to too strongly.  So are other holy scriptures, and so are many of the people in this forum.  Peace to you all, and keep your mind open to infinite possibilities. :smile: :tongue: :grin: 


--------------------
Stand up for your freedoms, join the fight against the War on Drugs!

www.drcnet.org
www.drugpolicyalliance.org
www.drugsense.org

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: psilo25]
    #858958 -

thanks. i don't have faith though. my God does, and he let'sm e use it.
my problem is i'm a horrible typeist, i can't explain myself on paper or on computer...i can in real life, but that's different...i type something, and then people try to repeat back what they heard, and it's totally not what i mean....
eh, i think i'm leaving the shroomery. i don't want people to get a bad impression of me because i can't type out what i mean. and then in trying to explain myself, i make matters more complicated and then get frusterated cause i can't get it out right...and then just end up looking like a total selfcentered prideful prick.
sigh. :grin: oh well, there's other places to be. maybe i'll drop in every now and again.

 


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Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #860470 -

In reply to:
BUT I'M RIGHT neener neener .


Humble ? You and an atheist are not so different after all. One says it surely exist god, the other says it surely don't, why both try to justify something that can't be proved ?
And please, don't get me wrong if i sounded harsh, sometimes i make too many direct questions.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #863127 -

where are they to be found? Vatican city dude. the originals? well, they fall apart like everything else. but every time they start to fall apart, the church takes them and copies them word for word and places them back in the vaults for safekeeping for the next 500 years or so. they have never been lost. never been changed. and that's just a historical fact.

You are talking utter nonsense. The Vatican DOES NOT HAVE "originals", and what they do have has not been copied word for word.

the gospels and epistles were all written by the apostles or close followers of the apostles...and they have been saved ever since. but how can i convince you? i can't.

What I said was that the orthodox claim of who wrote them is highly questionable, and this is without doubt true. I do not say they weren't written by companions of Jesus, just that it is uncertain.

How could you convince me?

evidence would be a good start...

If you believe this then that's fine. Many (probably most) biblical scholars would not agree with you.

you could also see a dinosaur bone and claim that the evolutionist created it to prove evolution....if you don't want to believe something, you never will. the only fact is that people doubt.

If I doubt the authorship of the Gospels then it's because there is good evidence to do so. There is nothing wrong with that kind of doubt. It's not equivalent to being too cynical to believe in anything.

me, i just study it all, find the most positive influence that's makes the most sense...and follow it.

Looking at the rubbish that you have come out with I have my doubts that you have "studied it all".

if you have no trust in anything, then your life will be miserable. at least, that's what I've found.

That doesn't mean you have to disconnect your brain!


There is disagreement about the time of the Gospels being written. Early dates given are typically in the region of 40-65 A.D. later dates suggested are about 70-100 A.D. The evidence for their authenticity is often given as being the writings of early Church Fathers such as Irenaeus (140-200 A.D.) and Eusebius (260-339 A.D.). Many people would consider these sources as unreliable. It could be suggested that they might be a little biased, Irenaeus was a Church propagandist (he wrote attacks on heresies) and perhaps there was an agenda to what he wrote on the subject of the Gospels.

The four Gospels are said to have gained full status as canonic literature in the latter part of the second century. The New Testament canon was of course not to be finally settled until the end of the fourth century.

The oldest surviving complete manuscripts of the Gospels are copies from the fourth century A.D. (there are small fragments from a slightly earlier time). The Vatican do possess one of them which is known as the "Codex Vaticanus". The Vatican has admitted that in it's restoration over the centuries "corrections" have been made. We can't be certain that this doesn't include significant alterations.

Even if they hadn't been altered we still couldn't know how close they are to the original, because the originals and all the early copies from the first couple of centuries don't exist any more.

It is very possible that the Gospels were put together from oral tradition and written sources by people who were not companions of Jesus.

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: mirrorsaww]
    #863362 -

Right on, I used to be a strong Christian, therefore I've been on both sides of the fence, and it befounds me as to how someone with the slightest shread of intellect can honestly believe and follow what started out to be a simple story.  The story of Jesus is, without a doubt, the greatest story ever told, but it is nothing more.  Try and picture yourself 2000 years ago, living under the control of the Roman Empire, for example.  Before the old and new testements were written, there was no ground law, and people feared death.  Know why? Because there was no such thing as commercial and organized religion.  So they thought heck, why don't we write a story about a mortal man who's father was a God, throw in stories of miracles he performed for proof, and basically, soundproof the thing off so that no one would ever question it (except of course, the facts of science).  They later threw in the story of Moses and the 10 commandments, because, look at it this way: they were killing two birds with one stone.  People were soon taught that if they behaved themselves and followed the 10 commandments, they would go to heaven, and not have to fear death.

:shocked:

I think the Christian Catholic religion is funny.  Funny how it contradicts itself and funny how it wouldn't exist if it weren't commercialized and corrupted by the giving of their followers' hard-earned cash.  Think about the passing of the collection plate. "Let us give thanks".  Where do you think the money goes?  Yes, toward the church, but yes, also toward the salary of the man preaching to you every sunday.  He doesn't practice religion for free.  Would "God" approve of churches and prayer groups collecting money and using his name as the cause? 


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"Soon they'll be breeding us like cattle!!!"

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Re: The Holy Bible... [Re: Right_On_Time]
    #863395 -

Think about the passing of the collection plate...Where do you think the money goes?

The way money is handled in the Catholic Church has always made me sick. The priest lives in tax free luxury. The bishops and archbishops, etc., own multiple homes and cars. Meanwhile, some of the members of their church are living in near to absolute poverty, and yet they still generously donate their money to these people. If these so called "religious men" were pure in their religious motives, wouldn't they share their wealth and donate to charity? This doesn't appear to always be the case. The only difference between a religion and a money-sucking cult is the number of members and the extent of its acceptance. Spirituality is the way for me--nobody to lie to me and use me, and nobody to answer to except for the "God" within.


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