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how many real christians are there?
    #5712849 -

Ok so i see so many christians who believe simply out of fear or ignorance, they dont think about it at all. My question is this, are these real christians? In my opinion these kind of people will believe in any kind of fear mongering nonsense, so they dont count. Also, christians, when you try and get people to believe in your religeon, what kind of people do you think will go for it? the weak willed, mindless sheep type of people? yep! so heres the ironic part part of it, the real believers, learn pretty quick that the organized part of christianity.. lacks something. So, how many real christians are there?


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A civilization based on authority-and-submission is a civilization without the means of self-correction. Effective communication flows only one way: from master-group to servile-group. Any cyberneticist knows that such a one-way communication channel lacks feedback and cannot behave "intelligently."

the principle of authority" was the "eminently theological, metaphysical and political idea that the masses, always incapable of governing themselves, must submit at all times to the benevolent yoke of a wisdom and a justice, which in one way or another, is imposed from above."
"no one should be entrusted with power, inasmuch as anyone invested with authority must . . . became an oppressor and exploiter of society."

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Re: how many real christians are there? [Re: secretmachine]
    #5712958 -

Actually i have been privileged to meet one of the 'God named' people(book of revelation). She told me that it really doesn't matter what you believe. God will. If you are to be evil then so be it. You are still a bringer of the light. As for "real Christians" there are none. They are either Jews or others. From what i under stand of history.


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"Centuries ago, sailors on long voyages used to leave a pair of pigs on every deserted island. Or ... a pair of goats. Either way, on any future visit, the island would be a source of meat. These islands, they were pristine. These were home to breeds of birds with no natural predators. Breeds of birds that lived nowhere else on earth. The plants there, without enemies they evolved without thorns or poisons. Without predators and enemies, these islands, they were paradise. The sailors, the next time they visited these islands, the only things still there would be herds of goats or pigs. Does this remind you of anything? Maybe the ol' Adam and Eve story? You ever wonder when God's coming back with a lot of barbecue sauce?"
Chuck Palahniuk

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Re: how many real christians are there? [Re: LostandFound]
    #5712985 -

i like that, what she told you is one of the deepest truths that i have learned in all my spiritual endeavors. It really doesnt matter who or what you are, or what you do. It is all part of reality. Even the bad people are there for a reason.


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A civilization based on authority-and-submission is a civilization without the means of self-correction. Effective communication flows only one way: from master-group to servile-group. Any cyberneticist knows that such a one-way communication channel lacks feedback and cannot behave "intelligently."

the principle of authority" was the "eminently theological, metaphysical and political idea that the masses, always incapable of governing themselves, must submit at all times to the benevolent yoke of a wisdom and a justice, which in one way or another, is imposed from above."
"no one should be entrusted with power, inasmuch as anyone invested with authority must . . . became an oppressor and exploiter of society."

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Re: how many real christians are there? [Re: secretmachine]
    #5713009 -

I would call myself a real Christian, as my faith comes from my personal experience of Christ, rather than fear of damnation. I don't try to convert people, because I think that others may have their own path that's better for them. I simply try to live as one who is with Christ, and set a positive example for others.


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Re: how many real christians are there? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5713206 -

Honestly, my belief is that there are only 36 real christians on the face of the earth at any given moment.
Although the spirit moves among alot of different people.

Or to put it another way, at all times upon the face of the earth, somewhere is someone at One with Christ Consciousness- 36 someones to be exact, but the force may only reside in an occupant for a few moments at a time.

Like they say somewhere on earth lightning is always connected between the land and sky, somewhere lightning is always connected to earth, in more than one place in fact.
the same is true for christians.
such is my belief.

the number of true christians is a low number, not a high one.

there is also the belief that transcendentally we are more than one person.
it is possible that each person is actually part of a being that is many people at once simultaneously.
sort of like a bone cell not realizing that the sinew is sort of an extension of itself in the end.

so, in saying their are only 36 true christians at any given time upon the face of the earth, it also suggest that each of these maybe 4,000 people.


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Law of Love

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Re: how many real christians are there? [Re: Telepylus]
    #5713283 -

I have been pondering this same question for some time now after being expelled from bible college a few years ago for heresy. I don't know about the 36 Christians philosophy, but I do believe there are very few who actually want to follow Christ for any reason other then escaping hell. When we insist that whatever is different than standard church doctrine is heretical and against christianity the reality of God is hidden. The Bible tells us to test our faith, why do we believe what we believe, no two people should have the same answer. I never try to convert people to christianity, I simply talk to people to see if they will believe in anything other then themselves and what they know of reality, I never even mention God, if they are chosen by him, and willing to accept him all they need to believe is that there is some power out there greater then themselves, and that power will reveal itself. Telling someone to be "saved" they just have to go to church every week, listen to a tired preacher give a tired sermon, sing a couple of songs and go home is like telling someone they can become a shaman by reading Carlos Casteneda. The truth is in the Spirit, the teacher, who reveals himself to everyone who desires to know the truth....but few do.


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You reap what you sow

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Re: how many real christians are there? [Re: secretmachine]
    #5713333 -

Well, I don't know about the inward aspects of this, but I do know that I've met a few Christians who honestly act as they believe. This type seems to be genuinely decent people who practice what they preach. Of course, I've also met a few hypocritical shits as well, but I digress.

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Re: how many real christians are there? [Re: Telepylus]
    #5713358 -

Honestly, I think there are more real Christians who follow Christ's teachings than it seems. The hateful, close-minded ones are the most vocal, and get the most attention, but I think there are plenty of Christians who are kind, loving people, and don't feel the need to announce their faith to everyone.


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Re: how many real christians are there? [Re: ngnyus]
    #5713387 -

The concept of the sacred 36 is not new.
There is an ancient jewish mystical story that there are 36 individuals who are sort of like autistics, very sensitive and strange, and their dream is all there is upholding the universe.
There are many similiar myths.

To me, it's not what i'd call a "belief" or a "myth"
it's what i'm seeing with my own two eyes

the way i see things, the bible isnt really taught much at all on the earth, because it's very powerful
i can't express it's power in this post
but it's like a time machine, or a space ship
does your preacher mention anything about time machines or space ships?

jesus talks all about time, and transcending space, and all kinds of cool stuff like that.
also, church is supposed to be a symbol of the womb itself.
inside you are made sinless and whole, and you are reborn when you come out.
does you pastor ever mention sex, or the womb?

if you answered no to any of the questions, then you're not dealing with a true christian.
because that is the main focus of christianity.
understanding time & eternity, and life & sex(womanhood).

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Re: how many real christians are there? [Re: Telepylus]
    #5716207 -

I disagree almost entirely with the last post (no offense to you telepylus) I was a preacher, and there are still tapes of my sermons floating around in Africa, and I believe I always taught the truth of the Bible, no matter who I offended (and I offended quite a few, read my last post) but I have always been different then the normal churchgoer, I am a part time tattoo artist, and therefore nearly covered with tattoos, not to mention my belief that all plants are from God and therefore all have a use, and the thing that most bothered me about the average christian was the hypocritical heir that came along side it most of the time......so what makes us less hypocritical to say who is or isn't a christian? Don't get me wrong this is a very cool thread IMOP, but I honestly believe that hypocrisy resides in the heart of every man or woman. In order to transcend this we have to have a constant and REAL understanding of who Christ is to us today, and that is and should be a constantly changing thing. Sorry, I digress that is the first time I've said anything "preachy" in a long time but it's true.
P.S. telypylus, I don't believe your talking about christians, especially if your sources are jewish cabbalism, they do not believe in the same christ the christians do, if they believe in the christ at all.


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You reap what you sow

Edited by ngnyus (06/05/06 07:57 PM)

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Re: how many real christians are there? [Re: ngnyus]
    #5716692 -

i see there are millions of passive christians who live by faith yes.

and there are a few active christians who actually touch the miracle of christ, and witness miracles,

there are people who seem to have proof of christ
and others who just believe

sure they are all christians
but since we're entertaining the term "True Christians"
i thought i'd throw the idea out there

as i said the story of the 36 is similar to the jewish mysticism
it was a story that jesus held close to his heart
do you think he didn't study cabbalism, lol
if you think jesus didn't study cabbalism extensively, then you've been misguided.

you mention hypocricy in one breath then in the next suggest that these people "they" "do not believe in the same christ the christians do, if they believe in christ at all."

almost as if to say, "you're not the authority, but i am" lol

and no i don't take offense if you disagree with me, 99.99% of people do disagree with me, lol

i'm of the opinion that most people who claim a connection to christ, in reality, have none whatsoever.

i'm a minister myself, and i think it's fun to go to different churches and listen.
the best sermons, and the best preachers, are always ministering over tiny congregations of devout worshippers.
chances are, if you come across a huge church with hundreds of members, and youth groups, and all that jazz, it's nothing but a money machine and it has nothing to do with christ or god.
Are you to have us believe all these idiots are close with christ and god? lol
christ and god are very powerful, and not so concerned with people working 9-5 and waxing the car, and whatever it is average trendy people do, lol

many believe that you don't even have to read the bible, you can just say you give your life to jesus, and that's all you gotta do.
i don't see it that way.
being involved with christ, or being a "true christian" means being "christ-like" (christed)

and there's a strange thing that happens when people start to become "christ-like" they also seem to appear to be very anti-christ like- because of the strange ideas floating around out there about christianity.

it is true though yea, i don't really call what i believe christianity.
christ doesn't call his beliefs christianity either,
he calls them "the way of heaven, the way of the father, the law of love, etc..."


in a nutshell
what i'm saying is
the catholic church is not performing the eucharist properly
nor is christian baptism being performing properly
or any of the duties that God has commanded
and i can prove it! lol

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Re: how many real christians are there? [Re: Telepylus]
    #5716759 -

Telepylus said:
in a nutshell
what i'm saying is
the catholic church is not performing the eucharist properly
nor is christian baptism being performing properly
or any of the duties that God has commanded
and i can prove it!  lol


Hey, I finally agree with you on something. lol
All I was saying about cabbalists is they are and were JEWS.  Not christians.  Cabbalism is a sect of the jewish religion which does not believe that the Christ has come, and there is debate as to wether or not the christ is to be a real or metaphorical thing, you got me wrong there, I'm not putting any judgement on them at all, they simply don't believe in Jesus, the foundation of christianity.  But what gives you the authority to say that they are closer to true christianity than the pastor of a mega-church (personal I think these are an outrage, but that's not my point),  I don't believe ANYONE has it right, and especially, emphatically, those who think they do have it right.
edit.'
:rofl:Two "ministers" arguing christianity on an illegal drug site :rofl:
just struck me as funny.


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You reap what you sow

Edited by ngnyus (06/05/06 09:31 PM)

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Re: how many real christians are there? [Re: ngnyus]
    #5718150 -

Well, the reaswon i started this thread is because i felt disgusted that the right wing christians, who dont know what they are talking about, have so much power in this country. I hate being represented to the world by a crazy texan. Re: the bible, it does ahve alot of good stories in it, and its crazy how after all i've learned alone, i look at the bible symbolically and it fits perfectly. But, thats not to say, since the bible says good things, that the *religeon* itself is good. Afterall the religeon came around much after the book, and jesus himself wanted no religion made around his teachings in the first place. Ok, so i do all this studying for years and years, and then some arrogant christian (because they are saved or someething? i dont get it) comes around and tells me im going to hell because i dont follow their rituals, despite the fact they are completely and utterly full of it.. Anyways, /rant off.


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---
A civilization based on authority-and-submission is a civilization without the means of self-correction. Effective communication flows only one way: from master-group to servile-group. Any cyberneticist knows that such a one-way communication channel lacks feedback and cannot behave "intelligently."

the principle of authority" was the "eminently theological, metaphysical and political idea that the masses, always incapable of governing themselves, must submit at all times to the benevolent yoke of a wisdom and a justice, which in one way or another, is imposed from above."
"no one should be entrusted with power, inasmuch as anyone invested with authority must . . . became an oppressor and exploiter of society."

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Re: how many real christians are there? [Re: secretmachine]
    #5719181 -

jesus came back to tell people they were going to hell too, lol

the priesthood (sanhedron)
and the king (ceasar)

this is where irony and paradox creeps in

chances are that the so-called christians of today, would be responsible for crucifying him again today,
because they wouldn't even recognize him-
(imagine what would happen if a man came who had a magic wand that could heal blindness or cancer- are you so foolish to believe that the world would cope with it? it would wipe out the economy of the world by erasing the medical profession and education system that basically thrives off of human suffering. you know more people make a living off of cancer than are actually dying from it?)

jesus doesn't come to pat everyone on the back for what a good job their doing.
he comes when things are just about as wrong and bad as they can be.
therefore, if the right wing christians are calling you evil- chances are better that are actually doing something right.
lol

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Re: how many real christians are there? [Re: Telepylus]
    #5719643 -

So, how many real christians are there?

Ro 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

A remnant.

God's elect are greatly scattered, especially at the end of the world.

All those who had not a love for the truth of the gospel, those who brought in damnable heresies, those who resisted God's testimony and His witnesses, those who scoffed at sin, shall be punished with everlasting destruction.

2 Thes 4-10
So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

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Re: how many real christians are there? [Re: fivepointer]
    #5720008 -

lol, yea.
Our Lord is coming soon.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come.
And let him that heareth say, Come.
And let him that is athirst come.
And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

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Re: how many real christians are there? [Re: Telepylus]
    #5720308 -

Hey fivepointer, what's a damnable heresy. You seem to know your Bible well, as do I (I read the New Testament in the original koinia Greek). But that term has been thrown around for centuries to burn people at the stake for such things as saying the church is not allowed to take a payment and thereby "cancel" someone's sin! Doesn't it say all one needs to be saved is to believe in their heart and confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord? Just in case you didn't know YES IT DOES! I was expelled from Bible college for openly pointing out in a Greek class that the two accounts of the conversion of Paul in the book of Acts directly contradict each other even in the original language. Am I going to hell, HAHAHA, I know otherwise. We don't let ourselves question what we believe because we're so afraid that it might be heresy, but even in the books in the new testament directly speaking to the Gnostic's are only a warning that they are going the wrong way. The mention of damnation for heresy in the bible involves only two things, telling people they have to follow old testament law to be saved and making up "clever lies" to extract money from their flock. I see both of these in approximately half the modern churches, and one or the other in probably another 25 percent( yea, I've been to a lot of churches, I was quite an impressive preacher). I could sit here and quote the bible all night long but this is no Sunday service and I hung up my hat on the preaching thing, I nearly lost my entire family over it.


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You reap what you sow

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Re: how many real christians are there? [Re: ngnyus]
    #5721813 -

Doesn't it say all one needs to be saved is to believe in their heart and confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord?

Which Jesus? Many people have created a god and jesus that simply doesn't exist. How can you confess if the thing your confessing is an idol of the imagination? What if a person says Jesus was a Martian and really believes it, does this mean they are saved?

We don't let ourselves question what we believe because we're so afraid that it might be heresy, but even in the books in the new testament directly speaking to the Gnostic's are only a warning that they are going the wrong way.

The warnings against the Gnostics are very clear, they are called antichrists, they are not simply going the wrong way, the teaching is a damnable heresy.

Let me explain the term damnable heresy. Salvation is not contingent on the sinner in any way. I am not saying that if a person gets all the right doctrine that this somehow activates salvation. Right doctrine is the immediate evidence of salvation, the cause is the sovereign grace of God.

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Re: how many real christians are there? [Re: fivepointer]
    #5721943 -

I'll tell you how I gauge for "True Christians".

If you examine the Bible & Gospel, and your intellect is sophisticated enough to grapple with it a little bit, you are going to have some really incredible mind blowing ideas in your head.
Talk of Miracles and Angels and the Devil.

You will know you are talking to a "True Christian" when this person utterly blows your mind.
And if he's not blowing your mind because he's dribbling on about some scripture that obviously has no meaning to the listeners, he maybe a christian yea, but he's not an active participant of the sublime mystery happening all the time, and miracles happening all around.
And he's not going to be in a fancy suit, and he won't touch gold, and he won't be found in some huge congregation, he'll be walking with whores and sick children, and other people who are super serious about the Work of God.
he'll be entering into trance like states and bringing back truckloads of newly discovered metaphysical plot lines, which really never amount to more than a retelling of ancient ones, but seem new because he's in tune with the everchanging absolute.

i know some names of some famous people, artists, or rock stars, or actors, who i gauge as "True Christians" (of the sacred 36)
but i will not mention their names
mostly because of the way such information is so commonly mishandled.

have you ever met someone who blew your mind?
or maybe an artist.

there is another old mystical jewish story
that if it be that a man could write a perfect song
one that was heard by the whole world, and loved by the world
even so that maybe somewhere on the earth that song is probably even playing on someones radio or cd right at this very moment
that meant being in very close proximity with God, even right beside the throne in the high heaven.

have you ever known an artist to touch your spirit so deeply?
a genius powerful enough to send secret signals hidden within music, or brushstrokes, or poetry, seemingly directly into your soul- like for your eyes only even, lol.
i wonder if anybody here knows what i'm talkin' about

Edited by Telepylus (06/07/06 04:15 AM)

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Re: how many real christians are there? [Re: Telepylus]
    #5724072 -

Five pointer said
"Which Jesus? Many people have created a god and jesus that simply doesn't exist."
, thats exactly my point, what makes you so sure your not one of them (I'm not trying to be judgemental by saying that, my goal is to just make everyone honestly ponder that question) Why do Christians tend to believe exactly as their told. Don't you know that 1200 years the only church there was was the roman catholic church, which attempted Islamic genocide, burned people at the stake for studying science, excepted payment instead of repentance for forgiveness of sins, and countless other crimes against God, all in his name, and the modern church is all grown from this seed with only a few modifications. Read closely the scriptures speaking against false teachers and false prophets, half of them describe gnostics, that is true, but the other half describe the modern church. Dang it fivepointer, you got me to quote scripture on a drug site, the Bible says;
1 Timothy 4 1-3
Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. These people are hypocrites and liars, and their consciences are dead. They say it is wrong to be married and wrong to eat certain foods (mushrooms maybe, sorry for the edit) But God created those foods to be eaten with thanks by faithful people who know the truth. Since EVERYTHING God created is good, we should not reject any of it but recieve it with thanks.
Sounds to me like a pretty good description of typical modern christianity

You say "The warnings against the Gnostics are very clear, they are called antichrists, they are not simply going the wrong way, " the Bible says;
Revelations 3, 20-22
But I have this complaint against you. You are permitting that woman- that Jezebel who calls herself a prophet- to lead my servants astray. She teaches them to commit sexual sin and to eat food oferred to idols. I GAVE HER TIME TO REPENT, but she does not want to turn away from her immorality. Therefore, I will throw her on a bed of suffering, and those who commit adultery with her will suffer greatly UNLESS THEY REPENT and turn away from her evil ways.
A warning. Harsh, yes, but I am not supporting gnosticism, only opened mindedness.
I believe I am a very good Christian, perfect?, far from it, but I believe that when Jesus said that " these signs will follow those who believe in me will cast out demons heal the sick and raise the dead" he meant it. I believe the reason this rarely ever happens anymore is because the church is stunted, we blindly believe what we are told out of fear, without asking why we should or do.


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You reap what you sow

Edited by ngnyus (06/07/06 07:37 PM)

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