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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Swami/Shroomism relations
    #570432 -

I've been thinking. There are people on this board who are always thinking about different possibilities that the universe has to offer. They believe in UFO's, astral projection, clairvoyance, etc. etc.. I am one of those people, but the biggest believer of them all is Shroomism.

Then there are the devils advocates. The king of the non-believers is Swami. He challenges many of the controversial ideas thrown out there because he wants to believe, but needs us to provide iron clad proof before he can. These people are needed here. It's good that someone is challenging all of the ideas that are thrown out here so that 1) we can know what the non-believers will say(we'll run into it eventually) and 2) because we all shouldn't just preach to the choir all of the time.

My only problem is is that the non-believers might disbelieve a little too much sometimes. I think it's good that people have faith that there is more to this world than we now believe, but it's possible that too much nay saying can take the wind out of the sails of some believers before they are able to actually prove, or at least show evidence of whatever phenomenon they're into.

For instance, let's say that there is a shroomerite who has a theory about moving things with his mind, and Swami says "Ok move something with your mind. If you can't, then it's not possible.", and the believer tries, but is not successful, and then gives up. This believer has just been talked out of trying to do this. It's possible that had the shroomerite kept trying before he gave up, he could have made a huge breakthrough because of faith. Or maybe skaMariaPastora will stop believing that she can contact a greater power through the use of 5MEO-DMT because at this point she can't explain to Swami why her realizations are valid.

I'm not saying that anyone should dilute themselves. We need to have people to challenge us a little bit, so we can strengthen our own truths, but it's possible that too much nay saying can stop someone before they make a breakthrough. What do you think??



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Mp3 of the month: Wild Things- Another Colored Ink Drawing (A.C.I.D.)


Edited by Learyfan (03/06/02 08:33 AM)

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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Learyfan]
    #570444 -

Well, I have to say I feel like Im right in between the two poles.
But since you complained that the sceptics are a bit too sceptic, which I do agree with, Im gonna give some arguments against the believers.
They are also way to convinced in their believe. I have the feeling people here think were already flying through the sky, while were still on the ground.
It aint that easy you know.

I have the feeling that the last thing youll find here is a spiritually enlightened person.

Were like a bunch of ants trying to invent an airplain becouse we've seen one flying.

I think this is the reason the sceptics are pulling us down so much, we try to jump to high.
Its karma.


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its all placebo

Edited by Divine_Madness (03/05/02 01:03 PM)

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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Divine_Madness]
    #570462 -

They are also way to convinced in their believe. I have the feeling people here think were already flying through the sky, while
  were still on the ground.
  It aint that easy you know.
Some people just have a lot of faith in what they believe. I think faith is very important. We need to stay excited about what we believe in, in order to be able to make a breakthrough.

I have the feeling that the last thing youll find here is a spiritually enlightened person.
What's your definition of a spiritually enlightened person? Do we all have to be Buddahs or wizards in order to have beliefs about spiritual matters? What if someone had looked at Michael Jordan's highschool basketball team, and said "I think the last thing you'll find here is the next Dr. J". I see all of us shroomerites as Michael Jordans in the making. Don't come down on us because we haven't realized our goal yet. We're working on it :smile:

These are very complex subjects here people. It's hard for the common man to explain them sometimes.

 


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Mp3 of the month: Wild Things- Another Colored Ink Drawing (A.C.I.D.)


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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Learyfan]
    #570493 -

They believe in UFO's, astral projection, clairvoyance, etc. etc.. I am one of those people, but the biggest believer of them all is Shroomism.

From my extensive experience, people believe for several reasons:

1. Enculturation / social pressure: "I am a Catholic because my parents were Catholic."

2. Desire: "We will soon shift to a new spiritual dimension."

3. Fear: "I believe that my soul is immortal and that I will live forever when I die." (And this belief came from our forefathers who also feared their mortality.)

4. Misperception: "I saw a UFO last night." (It was actually a meteor.)

5. Selective memory: "You always call when I am thinking about you." (Disregards the thousand times he thought of you, but you did not call.)

6. Heresay: Streiber wrote a book about aliens that he says is non-fiction.

7. Hard evidence.

Faith is something masquerading as 1-6. Tell me why I should possibly accept anything other than #7?

Tell me why faith is good? Should I have faith in Bin Laden, Santa Claus, Rev Sun Myung Moon? Why not? Is faith only in some things good? How are these things discerned?

Too much skepticism? No one ever got burned by being cautious and investigating, but the contrary is most certainly true!


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #570522 -

"Tell me why faith is good?"

Any scientific theory is faith in the beginning, before it is proven. It has to be, because if its not proven the only thing the scientist has to go on is his gut instinct. For instance, in the 18th century somebody (I forget who) thought up the germ theory of disease, that people got sick because of tiny little organisms that attacked your body from the inside. Obviously, everybody thought it was a ridiculous idea, but he had faith in it because it made sense to him. Later, when it was proven correct, people agreed.

I view matters of spirituality as the same thing. They are theories that have yet to be proven because our science is not prepared to tackle them. Probably a lot of them are wrong, but unless we explore them we'll never know. For instance, I believe in a cosmic overmind because I have experienced things in which that conclusion makes the most sense to me out of any I have pondered. Sure, I can't prove it, but if nobody even recognizes it as something that might be true, it will never be proven. I could just chalk it up as chemicals in my synapses, but that's a pretty boring way to live life in my opinion. I'm going to try to explore this phenomenon further and see if I can learn more about it. Maybe a couple hundred years into the future, people will be able to have some kind of scientific theory that explains it, but that will only happen if people have faith that it could be possible.

So in a way us faith-loving shroomerites are the vanguards of our species, boldly pushing the boundaries of what is known in the hope that someday the truth shall be apparent.

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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #570526 -

I just don't think you should write something off because you can't prove it. I don't think that all faith is blind faith. If you live your life without certain beliefs just because you can't prove them, then you are a man without a goal. You have nothing to aim for. A person without faith is like a little kid waiting for his mommy to give him permission to believe in something.

I'm not going to sit around and wait for science to prove that the soul exists before I believe it. I'm not going to wait for the federal government to admit that UFO's exist before I believe it(this one's the easiest because i've seen TONS of great evidence(much more concrete than "I saw a UFO last night"), and I find it ridiculous that people don't believe by now. I'm not going to wait for science to discover once and for all that our minds have a reducing valve which holds back, and keeps out the majority of our soul(and irrelanvant information), and that psychedelic drugs open that valve wider to let more soul in, etc etc etc..

I'm not going to wait around for everyone to validate what I deeply believe to be true, and I don't think i'm being "blind" because I have faith in that.



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Mp3 of the month: Wild Things- Another Colored Ink Drawing (A.C.I.D.)


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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #570529 -

Very well said skaMariaPastora.



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Mp3 of the month: Wild Things- Another Colored Ink Drawing (A.C.I.D.)


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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Learyfan]
    #570532 -

Very well said yourself :smile: 

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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #570588 -

"A person without faith is like a little kid waiting for his mommy to give him permission to believe in something."

hahahahaha! pure genius

yes, both of you very well said. I couldn't agree more.


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everything everyone everywhere.
forever and ever

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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Learyfan]
    #570608 -

The reason I commented on no enlightened persons being here, is that we have no idea where were heading at.

Its like trying to play basket ball without anyone knowing the rules. And we really havent got a clue what were playing, we only know that we have to stay on a field. Some claim/think to know the rules couse they know a bit more, but they maybe only know that the ball has to go in some basket.


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its all placebo

Edited by Divine_Madness (03/05/02 04:38 PM)

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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #570611 -

Any scientific theory is faith in the beginning, before it is proven.
Not wholly true. It is one possible explanation of many that the scientist may explore. The scientists say his theory MAY be true. Yes, it takes persistance and vision to follow through, but is based on some form of rational thought. (BTW, you may have been referring to Louis Pasteur)

They are theories that have yet to be proven because our science is not prepared to tackle them. Probably a lot of them are wrong, but unless we explore them we'll never know.
Agreed, but a theory MUST be based on something! "Dolphins from Sirius built the Pyramids" is a theory, but not one avenue that needs to be explored as it is based on nothing at all.

I could just chalk it up as chemicals in my synapses, but that's a pretty boring way to live life in my opinion.
Boring or exciting, truth is more important than entertainment.

So in a way us faith-loving shroomerites are the vanguards of our species, boldly pushing the boundaries of what is known in the hope that someday the truth shall be apparent.
Perhaps, but in half a century, I have not seen one thing in the realm of pseudo-science or metaphysics boldy push any envelope anywhere. Every single area has fallen flat. Please state just ONE real-world example. The Pasteur example that you gave was based on observation, not faith.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Learyfan]
    #570614 -

The king of the non-believers is Swami. He challenges many of the controversial ideas thrown out there because he wants to believe, but needs us to provide iron clad prove before he can.
Ironclad, heh! Have not even seen a wisp of smoke to back any outrageous claim.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Typingwords]
    #570615 -

I've been reading this site for a while now and I like to hear all of the ideas that get thrown around, like shroomims stuff... You don't have to believe everything you read, but its damn good that we get to hear all of these different idea with out being punished like people had been centuries ago for going against the words of their church

It's good to have Swami's input on this site because you can push the concepts that people come up with by grounded them in the bases of concrete thought, BUT -- what if....... thats all What if???? At some point people started saying what if the world isnt the center of the Universe, and that maybe all creatures evolve over time --- And I'm pretty damn sure you've all hear that line at some point, but seriously Swami, if the "thing" that created the universe just came and knocked on our doors to tell us how to truly view the universe what would be left to learn -- what would be the point -- and if we have conversations about this kind of stuff, then we do not have the answer and for that we have no riight to judge someone else as being wrong...

Faith is just in yourself to be true to yourself --- You're true to yourself all the time swami in the way you put across your theories just as much as shroomism does...I'm sure "the thing that created all" would like it for us to contemplate everything and not disavow what we can't see.

it's just sometime it feels like you piss on a lot of peoples dreams of a different way of thinking .... But don't worry will all figure it out someday

SKAMARIAPASTORA IS THE COOLEST BASSIST I KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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"...and to the left where up is down now stand a zebra made of shapes of me and silver and the sun so bring no guilt with you up above the flatline let's just hit the sky exploding into one." [ HUM ]

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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Learyfan]
    #570637 -

A person without faith is like a little kid waiting for his mommy to give him permission to believe in something.
This is your basic derogatory slam that is without merit or meaning.

I'm not going to sit around and wait for science to prove that the soul exists before I believe it.
If you believe in a soul then you must base that on something...

...and I find it ridiculous that people don't believe by now
Probably because your tons of evidence (fuzzy photos, 50 year-old unverifiable stories, fraud, hoaxes, Alien Autopsies, Phoenix Lights) is not very convincing at all.

and that psychedelic drugs open that valve wider to let more soul in,
What does that mean? The people here come across as neither more nor less advanced than any other group of people that I have met. (see my second quote.)


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #570655 -

"Perhaps, but in half a century, I have not seen one thing in the realm of pseudo-science or metaphysics boldy push any envelope anywhere. Every single area has fallen flat. Please state just ONE real-world example."

Did you ever read this article?  http://www.crystalinks.com/holographic.html
It was posted in this forum a few weeks ago.  This is the beginning of proving the universal connectedness of everything in the universe.  I'd be curious to know what you think of it.  There's still a lot of speculation, but I think its a good start toward scientizing metaphysical concepts. 

Oh and SofaJesus, that was an excellent point man :smile: 

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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #570667 -

Quantuum entanglement is not pseudo-science based on some whimsical belief system. It is still theoretical in many aspects, but this knowledge base has been built up over centuries of physics research, observation and experimentation.

There's still a lot of speculation, but I think its a good start toward scientizing metaphysical concepts.
Perhaps, but note that it is hard science that is doing so.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #570668 -

Yes, but its taking steps toward proving what buddhists have known for centuries!

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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #570669 -

From the article on the holographic universe:

It is obviously much easier to understand how information can travel from the mind of individual 'A' to that of individual 'B' at a far distance point...

Now if only ONE person could demonsrarte that mind-to-mind link then we would have some REAL evidence of universal interconnectivity, but alas, it is lacking.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #570773 -

Interesting link...

I haven't yet read "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot, but I plan on it.

I wonder how many of you are familiar with Pascal's wager....


...................Believe..................Don't Believe
....AND
God Exists:.....Heaven=...............Hell=
..................Eternal...............Eternal
..................Reward................Damnation

....AND
God Does.......We've wasted a..........No reward,
Not Exist:.......little piety but........no punishment.
.................perhaps been
.................better people.

If your "faith" is based on this, it's time to re-evaluate your thought processes.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Sclorch]
    #570775 -

And don't misunderstand this as a Christianity-thing.
If your goals (or desires or dreams....) mottle your thinking, you, too, are guilty of adhering to this "smart gambling" policy.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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