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The Death of the Soul...
    #5462499 -

I'm very positive in the exsistant of our spiritual beings and the soul, which has various meanings and representations, almost every culture of the world has in some form or another contributed to this universal belief. The immortal exsistance, the true image of our identity, the devine vision. Ive read books which stated that in ancient times and all through history the soul and its description has been uncertain, to abstract, to theoritical to be real, controversy over the metaphysical scope of reality. Doubt never brought us anywhere. What I can say is from personal experience and that I know the reality of the soul is real, I have felt the torment of my lust and also the undescribable realization of its vulnrability, ecspecially in these years of maturity...Though confusion still sits on my shoulder.

With all our advancments and freedoms of this world and society, have we sacrificed the knowledge of our soul and sentenced it to its demise? or have we finnaly been able to witness the truth of it's exsistance?? Does any one agree with me?

Please, share your thoughts.


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Requim for a Dream - Paul Oakenfold
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"The mis/abuse of any form of power, is the worst form of ignorance"
-------------------------------------------------------------
WIZOLZ - Lover with a Killer's Smile

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Re: The Death of the Soul... [Re: WIZOLZ]
    #5462828 -

Quote:
With all our advancments and freedoms of this world and society, have we sacrificed the knowledge of our soul and sentenced it to its demise?


No. The knowledge (of a soul) is still there. The proof is still there. One just has to look.

Quote:
or have we finnaly been able to witness the truth of it's exsistance??


Not sure what your after here.
There will NEVER be any proof that will be good enuf for science.

EVER

If God wanted us to be able to prove the existence of our soul.......then this life would have no meaning.

The soul is and will always be a mystery.


Truth is ALWAYS in the eye of the beholder.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: The Death of the Soul... [Re: niteowl]
    #5464476 -

niteowl said:
If God wanted us to be able to prove the existence of our soul.......then this life would have no meaning.



and on the flip side........ there is no sentient God and someday while looking into a microscope, we will zoom in far enough to find ourselves looking in a microscope. Relativity. Outside, inside. Yes.

Why would God control what we can and cannot do..... while giving us "free will" ? I think it perhaps depends on your path. If you are a man of science science will eventually lead you to God. If you are a man of superstition it will eventually lead you to God.......

whatever you are..... even doubtless and confused..... and questioning constantly... you'll find it...... because it's not separate from you.

Or is it? Is there only one path? Is there only one God? Is he tempermental, angry, and ready to send many to hell for the fun of it? Or does he weep at sending them to hell? If so why does he do it? Or do we send ourselves to hell? Or is there no hell?
Yes.
No.
Maybe so.

What is truth anyway? To me the diversity of world religions seems to denote an inner-God, rather than an outer one..... tribes are capable of creating their own custom Gods suited to them....... whereas larger societies need more rules and regulations and dogmas for their Gods, as they don't have the time to spend a life in spiritual search and want sufficient answers.

and then the societies see new societies who did the same things as them but came to use different words and conclusions......

and then holy men spring up, realized.... and their words are taken to heart but then twisted with time.

and now we are admist a collective consciousness through wires...... where all ideas are competing.............

who knows who knows.

I will give that most peple seem not concerned with matters of "soul" but it has probably always been this way. There is so much to experience as a human and though transcendent pleasures are much better and perhaps eternal, pleasures of the body through interaction with society on a quick or instant level are much more appealing.

If you live as a worker...... very busy.......... where is the time to find inner peace and the "soul?" It's an exclusive path but I hope all will walk it and succeed. Or perhaps it can come in an instant, the business of CEOs to the most isoalted of monks can find that "soul" of theirs.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: The Death of the Soul... [Re: leery11]
    #5465472 -

Nite-Owl - I enjoyed contemplating on your response..You enforce the search of the soul and provoked much thought in me...although, I must disagree with your notion that, had God intended for us to prove of the soul, life would lose its meaning. I question this because, had we the absolute knowledge of the soul, then wouldnt it give us that unbending certainty man has always been riddled of? Life after death and divine trancendence? It is said that the Soul belongs to God and that is why man is without proof, because God does not want to be proved, it demotes the power of faith and that, is essential to life, is it not?

Leery - Your response is very challenging because it boarders on a wide range of perspectives, though somwhat misdirected. You question why God would want to control us, having given us "free will" and a whole list of other more dangerous motives of consious. I can merely answer by stating that man is out of control, always has been...the factors not entirely our own, but most often a consequence of our ignorances of the soul. If God intervines, its to bring balance back into the minds of his creation.

Yes, I think the soul is dependant on what path you choose to follow, many which will allow it too flourish (Spirituality, Charity, Education, Nature) others that sacrifice it for personal gain. (Business, Politics, Entertainment) Remember the expression, "he sold his soul for...??" Relitive indeed. I definatly believe that most people discover who they are in this world, but its that sacred vision of thier identity which forms the soul.

Your statement about social stigma's concerning spirituality and religious development surprised me some. Its a philosophical observation, but needs to be continued I think. Perhaps including how it is possible to attain liberty of body, soul and mind even in large societies and possible means to achieving it. Though I wouldnt necesarily assume "inner peace" is entirely of the soul. For often a persons soul is in torment and poisoned with hate and death.

There is a belief that states the soul, the individual exsistence of the spirit of creation withen us, influenced by our mortal lives and all its daily rights and wrongs that occur, self provoked or by random consequence (fate anyone?)...eventually ether corode or enlighten that once pure seed of connection with our eternal sacredness, God. It is a motive to live for better things and regrasp the lost vision of harmony without provocation. For the individual, but also for the whole collective. If the soul should resemble anything, it would resemble our most divine self, for that purpose alone it endures. We cannot understand why the filthy rich are lonely, or the poor ironically at peace...but we can asertain it is through the mystery of the soul...for that is the barrier of communication with God, whether from withen or universally...its not to be understood, but rather, to be recognized and not forgeten or set aside. No, better that we take the time to feed our souls daily. Through whatever means you use, to reach that positive end which is most times directed towards the other person. Our actions and their effects ripple into the inner most being, subconsiouly, unknowingly reshaping the once perfect vision intended for us from God the creator. Dont be thwarted by what other people potray as truth, but dont denounce the ones who first spoke of it ether. Amen.


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----------------------------------------------------------------
Requim for a Dream - Paul Oakenfold
---------------------------------------------------------------
"The mis/abuse of any form of power, is the worst form of ignorance"
-------------------------------------------------------------
WIZOLZ - Lover with a Killer's Smile

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Re: The Death of the Soul... [Re: WIZOLZ]
    #5465602 -

The whole idea that god created an imperfect thing is absolutely astonishing to me. If god has no faults then for him/her to make such an imperfect creation as man, s/he must have some sick and twisted ways.

God: "I got it. I'll make a race of animals that can think and then give them wants and needs that contradict a set of rules I'll hand down to them. I can't wait to see the mess they get themselves into. And to top it all off, I'll tell them that I'm infallible and that it's all their fault that they are so screwed up"

I call bullshit. God was created in the minds of men who could not fathom much of the world around them. It was their way of explaining the unexplainable. Over the years bits and pieces got added on or taken off of the story. Powerful men changed the story to fit their needs and to gain control over the masses. After all, who could over-throw the king if he was chosen by god to rule. Throughout the ages, the ruling class edited the story to fit their needs and eventually we came up with what we have today.

It makes me sad that people die because some caveman saw a lightning bolt and could only imagine that it must be some supreme being getting angry at him.


The human soul is something that I've given some thought to before. I definitely do not believe in an afterlife. The soul as I see it dies with the body. The bio chemical processes that make up your brain cease to take place and what was you is no more.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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Re: The Death of the Soul... [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5465824 -

I do not see how one cannot believe in an afterlife at this point in my development. HOW WERE YOU BORN? Birth makes no sense at all.... birth and death are given.

Yet you only are here, right now? I say you should be an amoeba, a dinosaur, a flower, a giraffe.... but a human being with an ego? Mmmmm that's a tricky one.... true most do not recall what happened before birth.... but I do believe consciousness persists, and that you will find yourself in similar positions until proper spiritual cultivation allows you to break free of rebirthing....... i.e. you might be someone much like yourself or your next door neighbor at some point and still thinking that there is nothing past death.

I mean... it's hard to say.... I just look at how unreal it feels to be bound to a body and how it doesn't make sense to be born into a specific body as reason to think consciousness shifts from form to form until it learns to be formless and attains liberation/nirvana etc. Some point along the way as a human being you can learn to straddle the barrier (like through dreaming or intense meditation, maybe even shamanism) and immortality continues, control over your subsequent lives follows until liberation is met.

This is all very very driven by Buddhism though, by no means am I criticizing... I'm just saying.... one life is such a narrow and random concept. To me it makes no sense to be alive, and since we are indeed alive it further makes no sense to have one life.

I think it is only the ego that dies, and however free you are from your ego, that's how much control you have in retaining awareness that in fact, you have lived past/present/future lives, etc. Just what I think. It certainly makes sense that the self we currently no cannot linger on in the ways in which it currently does... I'll give you that (if that's what you're saying)

and .... I'm not questioning the true divine WIZOLZ ... I'm questioning the dogmas set up around the contradictions which my interpretation of different doctrines set up..... for example I stumbled accross a website that says the bird flu will kill most of us in America, then God will blow up all our oil pipelines creating hell on earth, because he is extremely angry with us. How can a God be angry with us? That is such an evil thing to do.... I don't care if you are God..... you have to have patience...... if your attempts at brining us peace didn't work....... maybe you didn't try right? I mean...... is this "Satan" so really strong that he is beating you and controlling our lives? I don't know, it's just so PERSONATIVE........ it's just............. God can't be a man in the clouds killing people just for the sake of it.... we ALL live our lives the best we can, even if we stray from morality and do things we know are wrong..... there's still a reason we stray..... we're trying.

I can't see why a God would do that to someone......it just doesn't mesh with my sense of morality, love, or compassion, it sounds quite evil. The question of our pipelines all being linked so as to make something like that feasible is concerning though.

Though if this is the accurate way God works I do hope he reaches some sense into me, because I understand his frustration with things.... but can you really give up on everyone?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (03/31/06 11:10 PM)

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Re: The Death of the Soul... [Re: leery11]
    #5466128 -

Good Posts, I'll try to understand them in the morning, if I wake up in time to catch the sun...Im so tired Im hallucinating...Hey, just feel at peace with things for now, cant take the world on in an instant.

Thanks for filling up the thread, I owe yah's one...


--------------------
---------o----o----o-------o------------------------o--o-o-
----------------------------------------------------------------
Requim for a Dream - Paul Oakenfold
---------------------------------------------------------------
"The mis/abuse of any form of power, is the worst form of ignorance"
-------------------------------------------------------------
WIZOLZ - Lover with a Killer's Smile

Edited by WIZOLZ (04/01/06 04:49 PM)

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Re: The Death of the Soul... [Re: leery11]
    #5466244 -

Quote:
leery11 said:whatever you are..... even doubtless and confused..... and questioning constantly... you'll find it...... because it's not separate from you.


True, but you can never prove the existence of your soul (God) to another person.


Quote:
WIZOLZ said:I must disagree with your notion that, had God intended for us to prove of the soul, life would lose its meaning. I question this because, had we the absolute knowledge of the soul, then wouldnt it give us that unbending certainty man has always been riddled of?


This is true as well......as soon as we all realize our soul "Is God" (and quit arguing over what God is)....then our social issues will diminish, if not go away all together.

Quote:
Ekstaza said:The whole idea that god created an imperfect thing is absolutely astonishing to me. If god has no faults then for him/her to make such an imperfect creation as man, s/he must have some sick and twisted ways.


We are perfect things.
Our souls are a piece of God.
We have been mis-led by our religious leaders to believe that God is seperate from us, and we are "sinners"

Quote:
God was created in the minds of men who could not fathom much of the world around them. It was their way of explaining the unexplainable. Over the years bits and pieces got added on or taken off of the story. Powerful men changed the story to fit their needs and to gain control over the masses.


Replace "God" with "religion" in that statement.......and you have it.

God has no religious preference.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: The Death of the Soul... [Re: niteowl]
    #5468704 -

Ekstaza - Having just experienced the grueling time in life when the wisdom teeth decide too finnaly give up harmonious lodging with the rest of your mouth, I can relitively agree with your notion about inmperfection....(Waited until I knew they had to be extracted = major major pain) Although pain and suffering is terrible, I must balance it also with reason, for there is nothing in the universe "perfect" ...under the belief that pefection is without death or fault..Even the sun in all its glory will burn off and fall victim to its mortality...Its about realizing through the facade of imperfection and seeing WHY these things are the way they are, in relation to harmony and development on this planet. No one who has undergone severe pain does not recieve the gift of compassion. No one born of disability is bereft of Joy or Love. God set the law of nature, whether imperfect or not, it was mankind who tried to control and manipulate it...

Leery - For me, I accept the contradictions as a means to gain the greater perspective, they are there because of the difficulty in explaining the unexplainable. Alot of very wise and useful lessons are found in various religions. (Fighting through crisis, hope, the soul and knowledge of spirituality) But to say they are absolute, possibly not, but still a means of knowledge, some may argue, eternal knowledge. Of coarse there will be extreme debate's over matters like this, because of the extreme persona it creates. I have always agreed that through diversity becomes development and enlightment. True, that their are some who's minds are very closed and restricted...An inconvient and annoying influence, through fear or ignorance...But it is somtimes the most simple of people, who do not question, that do the most over all good. That article you read sounds very theoritical, It could happen or could not...sounds like a creative theory. Why wouldnt God be angry with HumanKind? Were destroying the hell out of this planet and live superficially for personal Gain. It will eventually condemn us, but be assured its atleast not going to be directed too you. More to the ones profiting off of other peoples misery.

Your beliefts intrest me much, I read your thread "Dont Fight the Holy War" and I really thought it was well directed. Good writings.

Nite Owl - I liked what your said about God having no religious prefrence and that the soul is a piece of God. I believe this and better that my Soul is rich and pure then my mouth full of gold and possesions. I just seen your thread "Evolution of the soul...Spiritual Awakening" Im going to check it out.

The death of the soul is happening all around us, our disconnection with nature, with spirituality, with eachother, with music and art and most ecspecially knowledge of God. If the soul does live on and continue after this life, then prepare it first with the essentials.


--------------------
---------o----o----o-------o------------------------o--o-o-
----------------------------------------------------------------
Requim for a Dream - Paul Oakenfold
---------------------------------------------------------------
"The mis/abuse of any form of power, is the worst form of ignorance"
-------------------------------------------------------------
WIZOLZ - Lover with a Killer's Smile

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Re: The Death of the Soul... [Re: WIZOLZ]
    #5470919 -

Everyone. I am steadfast in my beliefs that:

A: God was created in the minds of men

and

B: The soul or conscienceless or what ever you want to call it, is simply chemistry taking place in you brain causing you to have thought. I don't understand it, but I'm not going to to try to dress it up and call it something it isn't.

Have a Shroomy Day

Ekstaza


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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Re: The Death of the Soul... [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5472372 -

If God made everything observable and distinguishable this world would be very mundane. The beauty in this world is the unknown and finding new. Be it information, knowledge, or understanding. Think of nature, each living part has its own quirks which seem to amaze.

Now back to the soul... Why should it have to be scientific?
God created the five senses and made them available to be recognized in our minds. What is sound if we can not perceive it? Think of this universe without having a sense of sight hearing or touch. Why can't there be something more? Possibly a soul or God's grace in our lives that cannot be perceived directly but through events?


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."

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Re: The Death of the Soul... [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5476848 -

David_vs_Goliath said:
If God made everything observable and distinguishable this world would be very mundane.


Much of this world is mundane. It definitely sucks to lose that wondrous feeling of the mystical side of life, but I prefer to accept that the fact that there are things I and/or everyone else do not understand right now. Does this mean that we'll never know? Of course not. I am convinced that there is an answer for every question and that the answers will be found through research, not some sort of divine revelation. "God" may very well exist, but if so, it is something that CAN BE EXPLAINED by science. I will never accept the "just because" explanation.

There will be times when we will be awed and there will be times when we just can't fathom an explanation for an event, but simply saying that it's god or gods will is ignorant and ultimately detrimental to society.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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Re: The Death of the Soul... [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5476890 -

how do you explain an experience of grace? or do you deny the possibility and never have the chance to experience one?


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."

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Re: The Death of the Soul... [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5476972 -

Every emotion, every feeling, is created through, or experienced because of, bio-chemistry.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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Re: The Death of the Soul... [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5476985 -

If thats how you think and live your life, I'm sorry and i feel very bad for you.


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."

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Re: The Death of the Soul... [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5477087 -

It's actually quite liberating, thank you.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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Re: The Death of the Soul... [Re: WIZOLZ]
    #5478337 -

To each, it's own. This reality is a collection of moments, if you explain this moments with science or with a higher belief, it doesn't matter.

Enjoy your existence first, then if your nature demands, explain it. But within the realms of the unknown, neither science, nor belief will explain this things, only you can do it.

That's the beauty of the individual, between what's absolute and what's subjective, a line is drawn, so you can have your own reality.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: The Death of the Soul... [Re: MAIA]
    #5479488 -

In a moment of intense emotion such as a child being born, making love, attending a family members funeral, or just being in awe of nature do you really stop to think WOW my brain chemicals are really starting to kick in?


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."

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Re: The Death of the Soul... [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5480621 -

The fact that emotions and feelings can be explained by science doesn't make them any less moving or intense.

Does the fact that I can explain how the Mona Lisa was created make the painting any less beautiful?

I've just decided to seek the facts and science of things instead of relying on the same ol' "it's a miracle" mentality.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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Re: The Death of the Soul... [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5485390 -

And they are miracles, none the lesser of fact or belief, atleast recognition is given to give them importance...In some ways, whether by the mind, the spirit, or the soul, we are guided forward...It is only conceivable for us to grasp what's withen our limits, what remains unknown, is still felt and somtimes feeling is the language of truth...Perhaps exsistence becomes more beutiful when we can understand it, perhaps it is none the less beutiful if we do not...I believe in the soul, and I struggle to keep it as pure as I can through my life. As the old greek saying goes "It is the Great Games, where Skill and Valor crown the Victor." Believe me, the soul is real...but it cannot exsist alone, nor can we truly exsist without it.


--------------------
---------o----o----o-------o------------------------o--o-o-
----------------------------------------------------------------
Requim for a Dream - Paul Oakenfold
---------------------------------------------------------------
"The mis/abuse of any form of power, is the worst form of ignorance"
-------------------------------------------------------------
WIZOLZ - Lover with a Killer's Smile

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