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Re: Are we alone in the universe? [Re: Swami]
    #5102067 -

I would communicate using the intergalactic language.  :naughty:

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Re: Are we alone in the universe? [Re: Swami]
    #5102479 -

Swami: You're assuming the extraterrestrial intelligence would be primative, they're assuming they would be advanced (as in building artifacts, and cultures).

Humans as far as we know, are the only animals to manipulate natures resources and phenomena for technological advancement (and, in my opinion, an extention to the evolutionary mechanism).

wilshire: Prove it. You can't because it is an assumption. Chances are most ET intelligence did not develop an opposable thumb. Your opposable thumb is the reason you are as complex as you are.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: Are we alone in the universe? [Re: psyka]
    #5102488 -

I assume no such thing. To communciate requires a common frame of reference and some similar degree of perception and motivation; all three being very remote.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Are we alone in the universe? [Re: Swami]
    #5102504 -

I can't see your point of view, yet.

Mathematics is the precursor to advanced language (and everything else). If the civilization is able to reason with mathematics, I see no reason why we would not get over temporary communication hurdles.

I'll give 10 computers, for 2 chunga's... thats how it all starts.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: Are we alone in the universe? [Re: psyka]
    #5102539 -

What's not to see?

Their life span may be hours or thousands of years. They may be microscopic or an unrecognizable gigantic gaseous cloud.

They may have zero desire to communicate. Does the lion attempt to communicate with the antelope? Can you share your dreams with a fern?

Your math theory is projecting a human invention onto another species, as is assuming equal curiosity about other beings.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Are we alone in the universe? [Re: Swami]
    #5102561 -

I know we've had this argument before, swami.

There will always be common ground between any two technological civilizations - and that common ground will be Physics.

A hydrogen atom is a hydrogen atom anywhere you go in the universe. If a species is able to understand what a hydrogen atom is, then we will have something in common with that species.

They may not call their numbers "one, two, three, four". They probably wont use a base-10 system. Their symbols for everything will be different. However as long as we both understand certain aspects of nature, we will have common ground on which to build a communication. Communication would be difficult at first, but given time a suitable translation would be found.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Are we alone in the universe? [Re: Swami]
    #5102573 -

Swami said:
Sorry Star Trek fans. English is NOT the intergalactic language. Hell - verbal language is also highly unlikely to the the communicative norm; nor are humanoids the de facto body design.


Did you even watch Star Trek?

They weren't all speaking in English, man. That would just be preposterous! :lol:

They had a "universal translator" - a computer - that was able to decipher the communication of anything they were speaking to, then translate on-the-fly for them. There were many instances where the UT didn't work at all - in which case all the crew would hear is a bunch of uninterpretable sounds.

Kind of like the Babel-fish :smirk:


As for biology...there is a distinct possibility that "humanoid" will be the norm for species intelligent enough to become technological. As psyka pointed out, one of the main reasons we are a technological species is because of our body type. Dolphins, for example, are probably almost as "intelligent" as humans are (they even have a larger brain) but due to their habitat and the lack of limbs for tool-use they have not become "sentient" nor developed a technology.

So it is possible that for a species to become both intelligent and technological, it will have to have certain features that may be common to all technological species.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Are we alone in the universe? [Re: trendal]
    #5102616 -

Their symbols for everything will be different
they may need no symbols

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Re: Are we alone in the universe? [Re: raytrace]
    #5102644 -

Please explain how to "write" something without the use of symbols.

I would really, really, like to know how.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Are we alone in the universe? [Re: trendal]
    #5102657 -

In fact, let's go a little farther: how do you form a language at all, written or not, without symbolism?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Are we alone in the universe? [Re: trendal]
    #5102743 -

But what are the chances that another race developed technology?

You'd have to explore other possibility's leading to technological development other than an opposable thumb...

What if no other animal in the Universe developed a complex object manipulator. We, very well, may be alone.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: Are we alone in the universe? [Re: psyka]
    #5102782 -

Oh it is certainly possible, I won't deny that.

One of the things I liked about Asimov's series, The Foundation, was that as humanity spread out through the galaxy it did encounter other life-forms, but they were all primitive plant/bacterial organisms. They didn't find a single other intelligent species in the entire galaxy, nor any remains that suggested there were any before humans.

It also may be the case that the universe just isn't old enough to be vastly populated as yet, especially not with intelligent life. It has taken life on Earth over 4 billion years to get to this stage....4 billion years is a full 1/4 of the age of the Universe. We know that life was not possible for at least the first few billion years After the Bang, as the universe consisted entirely of 3 elements (hydrogen/helium/lithium). The next few billion would have been spent for galaxy formation and nucleosynthesis to progress.

Perhaps we are one of the first to reach this stage? Almost certainly one of the first to reach this stage in this part of our galaxy...possibly in the entire Milky Way. I assume that, after space-colonization becomes possible for a species, within 1000 years that species could spread out through a significant portion of the galaxy....so the fact that we haven't seen any such species yet indicates (to me) that there just aren't any in this part of the galaxy.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Are we alone in the universe? [Re: Asante]
    #5104122 -

With 10^22 stars in the universe, it is a near-certainty that we have company.

With a universe big enough to contain 10^22 stars, it is a near-certainty that we will never meet them.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Are we alone in the universe? [Re: trendal]
    #5104126 -

There will always be common ground between any two technological civilizations - and that common ground will be Physics

And mathematics. Seven is prime for humans, Spaghetti Monsters, and Vulcans alike.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Are we alone in the universe? [Re: trendal]
    #5104516 -

Regarding symbolic and non-symbolic communication:

Let me put it this way. It is like comparing playing the piano where by pushing buttons you get discreet, crisply defined sounds and playing the theremin where the state and movement of your hands define the sound at each point in time.

Aliens may communicate with the state and movement of their body in a dance-like manner, where there is no need to refer to something other than an eternal now, where mind and body are one.

Immediate experience, and that?s all. No need for abstraction and no need for wars over interpretations of texts. Sort of like having sex (ok, introducing symbols may add a certain spice to it  :rolleyes:)

There may be ?culture? but not this sort of technological civilization we are immersed today; a society of dancers and actors instead of fat-ass button pushers.

In fact? this just might be? what we should be striving for?

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Re: Are we alone in the universe? [Re: raytrace]
    #5104526 -

hey, I guess Veritas was on to something with that intergalactic language :grin:

Edited by raytrace (12/25/05 10:24 AM)

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Re: Are we alone in the universe? [Re: trendal]
    #5104593 -

We know that life was not possible for at least the first few billion years After the Bang, as the universe consisted entirely of 3 elements (hydrogen/helium/lithium).

What about highly advanced and mellow balloon creatures?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Are we alone in the universe? [Re: Swami]
    #5104602 -

The Universe is full of life. There are many reasons, many many reasons, but the strongest of all for me is the probability.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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