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InvisibleDiploidM
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Race And Intelligence
    #4228728 - 05/28/05 01:40 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

In the infamous book The Bell Curve, authors Herrnstein and Murray report that the difference in IQ scores between whites and blacks (in the US) was about one standard deviation.

On average, blacks consistently score 85, whites score 100, and latinos somewhere in between.

These results come from tests that are generally agreed to have been properly administered and culturally neutral.

Are the races inherently possessed of different intelligence or are there flaws in these finding? What, if anything, should society do about this given that a low IQ could be considered a handicap and we give handicapped people disproportionate benefits compared to normal people (preferred parking, disability benefits, etc.)?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleHelp on the Way
Slipknot420

Registered: 08/13/00
Posts: 2,893
Loc: Another World
Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: Diploid]
    #4228747 - 05/28/05 01:45 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

maybe it says that the white people living in the suburbs get better educations and have better schools than the black people stuck living in the poor ghetto


--------------------
:shocked: *Divine Moments of Truth* :shocked:


"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead

"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: Help on the Way]
    #4228754 - 05/28/05 01:49 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Properly designed and administered IQ tests are presumed to account for this. IQ tests do not measure how much knowledge someone has (how much they've learned in school) but rather measure one's ability to reason, detect paterns in data, etc.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblewandrnshaman
old hand
Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 1,196
Loc: Pinellas Co, FL
Re: Race And Intelligence *DELETED* [Re: Diploid]
    #4228767 - 05/28/05 01:54 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Post deleted by wandrnshaman

Reason for deletion: .



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Offlinecrunchytoast
oppositional

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: wandrnshaman]
    #4228817 - 05/28/05 02:09 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

generally agreed to be culturally neutral tests??? thats hotly contested in both the anthro and psych worlds.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
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Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4228836 - 05/28/05 02:18 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Eh, maybe I should have said 'intended' to be culturally neutral.

Case in point: I took a professionally administered test a few years ago out of curiosity. One question, which I scored incorrectly, went as follows.

Which doesn't belong:

1. Horse
2. Kangaroo
3. Cow
4. Mule

The typical layperson will 'correctly' answer 2. Kangaroo because it is the only one of the four that walks on two legs. I, however, was culturally biased by my background in science and knowledge of biology and so chose 4. Mule because it is the only one in the group that is sterile.

Sterility, to me, is more significant than the number of legs an animal walks on and so the test biased me towed the dumb end of the scale even though it was designed to be as neutral as possible.

Had the designer of the test been a biologist instead of a psychologist, this question might have been better designed.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (05/28/05 02:25 AM)


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Invisibleninjapixie
newbie
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Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: Diploid]
    #4228869 - 05/28/05 02:34 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I would've picked kangaroo cos it's a marsupial, the others being mammals.


--------------------
Put that monkey back in the oven.


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OfflineOmEgAx1
Stranger
Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 120
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4228877 - 05/28/05 02:36 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

My thoughts aswell, what you gotta understand about IQ tests is that its 99% genetic in all actuality.

How can I prove this? Its simple, study up on sociology and psychology, you will find this... 2 identical twins seperated at birth and reunited decades later, regardless of where they grew up, the IQ scores between them are as similar as if you were to take the IQ test twice!

So no, you cannot say that education has ANYTHING to do with IQ differences between races, but ofcourse there are also blacks who have IQs well over 100, and whites with IQs well below 85, but in general, it tends to be the case.

What I would really like to see is IQ test differences between sober individuals, individuals on the influence of psilocybin, and individuals on the influence of MDMA. Psilocybin seems to increase intellgence on a more sub-concious level, while MDMA seems to noticably increase intelligence on a higher concious level. I would be very interested to see some testing done in this area.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
oppositional

Registered: 04/07/05
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Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: OmEgAx1]
    #4228889 - 05/28/05 02:39 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

i wonder if mdma would increase your emotional intelligence


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Invisibleninjapixie
newbie
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Posts: 417
Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: OmEgAx1]
    #4228916 - 05/28/05 02:49 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

If you're tripping or rolling, do you really think you can fill in those little circles? I'd probably make an artwork out of the answer sheet.


--------------------
Put that monkey back in the oven.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: Diploid]
    #4228922 - 05/28/05 02:52 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Some interesting findings:

1. Adopted children raised in the same household tend to have similar IQ, but these similarities disappear as the children enter adolescence. Evidence of a genetic correlation?

2. Brain size correlates well with IQ.

3. Average IQ scores worldwide are on the rise.

4. Religious people tend to score lower than non-religious people.

5. Diet appears to have no effect on IQ (except in cases of malnutrition).

6. Men tend to do better in spacial areas and women in verbal areas of IQ tests.

7. The APA determined in 1995 that the differences in measured IQ between blacks and whites is valid and not based on social or cultural biases.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineOmEgAx1
Stranger
Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 120
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: ninjapixie]
    #4228925 - 05/28/05 02:53 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Well Im not talking about tripping or rolling NUTS, im talking what I would consider a "medium" dose, hell even on high doses of shrooms, I know people who tripped during tests, and get much higher scores than usual, and tell me later its like the pen was writing the answeres for them, personally while on MDMA, sitting down having a discussion with someone rolling aswell, it seemed I was able to not only think much more clearly, but communicate my ideas more fluently aswell.


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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: OmEgAx1]
    #4228927 - 05/28/05 02:55 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Perhaps an oral examination would be better.


--------------------
Put that monkey back in the oven.


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OfflineOmEgAx1
Stranger
Registered: 04/11/05
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Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: ninjapixie]
    #4228932 - 05/28/05 02:57 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

*shrug* Id like to see it tested in any way shape or form, as it could help us with our understanding of basic brain chemistry and function...

Diploid, I think I already made it very clear that IQ scores are VERY highly genetic based :smile:


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OfflineDoom
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Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 365
Loc: ghost-train city
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: OmEgAx1]
    #4228945 - 05/28/05 03:06 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

IQ tests are the laughing stock of any decently funded psych department.


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OfflineOmEgAx1
Stranger
Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 120
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: Doom]
    #4228952 - 05/28/05 03:09 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Even though a proffesional IQ test is extremely accurate and even proves the genetic correlation of intelligence? This seems to be a poor comment, if you care to explain I may not discount your comment.


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OfflineDoom
Rogue

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 365
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Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: OmEgAx1]
    #4228958 - 05/28/05 03:12 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

haha, what a joke.

*a proffesional IQ test is extremely accurate and even proves the genetic correlation of intelligence*

show me this test, and show me whatever psych study you read which is misinforming you.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
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Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: ninjapixie]
    #4228966 - 05/28/05 03:13 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ninjapixie said:
Perhaps an oral examination would be better.




I agree. I think I need one myelf. Would you care to administer one to me? :eyemouth:




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: Doom]
    #4228993 - 05/28/05 03:23 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

what a joke.

In what way do you think IQ tests are a joke? I agree they are far from perfect, but you seem to be saying that they're completely useless.

I'm no psychologist, but from what I've read, they appear to be highly repeatable and useful in finding correlations between heritability, brain size, and other factors and intelligence.

They're far from useless.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineOmEgAx1
Stranger
Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 120
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4229017 - 05/28/05 03:33 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

show me this test, and show me whatever psych study you read which is misinforming you.




http://flysci.com/genome/genome_6.asp

Quote:

A study of just how alike twins are shows that when identical twins are reared together, the answers were 86% the same on IQ tests, when reared apart; the answers were 76% the same. Ten percent is not a big difference in IQ, taking into account that two totally different families raised each twin. The same study shows that two adopted children that are unrelated, but living in the same family, have 0% correlation between answers. This implies that the environment has no effect on the genes for IQ.




http://www.brook.edu/views/articles/dickens/200104.htm
http://www.ferris.edu/isar/bibliography/beckwith/twins.htm

Quote:

No training program--no environmental condition of any sort--can make a genius of a person with low measured intelligence. But some gains are possible, and programs have been developed for increasing intellectual skills.




http://www.cpsimoes.net/artigos/art_brit_7.html


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