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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Hey challengers of "irrational" thinking
    #4896149 -

For those of you here who claim that you MUST challenge what is irrational thinking in your opinion to keep people from joining heavens gate like suicide cults because you care to keep people from irrationally offing themselves, here is someone to apply your care and concern too ASKING for your help.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=support&Number=4893056&page=0&fpart=1


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Hey challengers of "irrational" thinking [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4896540 -

The only thing I think he is doing is being an asshole and fucking with everyone there.

Maybe if there was a real problem for us to address, instead of this guy's immature sense of humor, then maybe we would follow through with your mocking challenge to us.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Hey challengers of "irrational" thinking [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4897237 -

I like how he labelled the really important things in life like "getting laid".


(on a side note: girls, see what just a little pussy can do for a guys self-esteem?)

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Re: Hey challengers of "irrational" thinking [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4897316 -

Upon reading his first post, there was no indication of anything other then what was said. Who are you to decide, who's posts are real cries for help and who's are not? All comments people make about wanting to take their lives should be taken seriously. Most people who do it, talk about it first.

Sorry you took this with the way you did. If people sincerely care to keep others from falling into beliefs that make them think something is better in death, then, they should know when shroomery members are talking like that so they can act to help.

If they don't sincerely care, then they should consider not making up excuses as if they do as a front for just wanting to discourage what is different from being talked about here.

People around here talk about "getting real" and being "honest" with the self and maybe some of those people should consider the benefits of taking their own advise.

Perhaps you should look up the definition of the word mockery. If people want to make a mockery of themselves saying they "care" about thwarting off potential suicides when they really don't, thats their own game of self mockery. 

You put the mockery label in the wrong place. To mock means to pretend to be something you are not. I don't run around here saying that I challenge irrational beliefs because I don't want people joining suicide cults and then don't act to help the dozens of suicide posts that actually come up at the shroomery.

People will always enjoy challenging what they deem to be irrational beliefs and are free to do that here, even encouraged too, the reasons could be infinite. Some can save the excuse and reasoning for why they do it. I can challenge them to face their irrational beliefs that they actually care. I can say that I am skeptical and that I think "some of them" are being fradulent in that pose. I'm allowed to challenge irrational beleifs with skepticism too.

What do you care? You're not one of the ones who says you do it to stop people from joining suicide cults. People can challenge the irrational. No need to protect that right here.

I think this "heavens gate" cry is played out because those crying it I never see help suicides here. People say it to stir emotions into mass hysteria and get everyone coming down on everything that isn't nailed to the floor. They sound irrational to me. How often do suicide cults form on this planet? I'm aware of two that formed in the last century.

Thinking suicide cults are a dime a dozen in this world and that anyone who expresses interest in crop circles is going to run off and join one is pretty irrational thinking in my view.

Typical signs of a potential suicide are people expressing feelings of severe depression, feeling completely discouraged in life and having lost all hope of things getting better.

People who encourage others to feel good and see the bright side and love life are not a threat. They are typically the ones who come under skeptical discouragement from others though who say, they want to prevent suicide. :what:

Maybe this post got some people thinking and aware of that song and dance. Maybe if they can more clearly see the crock of doo doo it is, they will stop buying into the bunk and following suit.  :cool:

:peace:  :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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truth and irrationality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4898492 -

Who says the truth has to be rational? Plus, that rush song is highly underrated.


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----
For those that know, no explanation is necessary. For those that do not know, no explanation may suffice.
-someone smarter than me

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Re: truth and irrationality [Re: isander]
    #4898520 -

Ask someone who says the truth has to be rational. I'm not one of them. I think rationality is subjective to the goal at hand anyway.

I've never heard anyone who listens to Rush under rate it. I got a PM earlier from some youngin unfamiliar with Rush who said they got the chills when they read through the lyrics and they loved it. I love the song! :thumbup: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: truth and irrationality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4898634 -

What is it you even mean by "rational" and "irrational"?

For the most part, being rational just means that one is thinking logically, and being irrational just means that one is thinking illogically.

If you are just finding another way to say "logical" and "illogical", then why not just use those words?

By definition, that which is true is the most logical, and that which is false is, again by definition, the most illogical. It is therefore ludicrous to think that you can reach truth by simply being illogical.

Edited by Darcho (11/05/05 11:15 PM)

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Re: truth and irrationality [Re: isander]
    #4899294 -

Who says the truth has to be rational?

Well, really, whether the truth "has" to be rational, is dependent on your situational goal, as Jiggy suggested.

What is your goal?

If your goal is to reach a more clearer understanding of calculus, then the truth that you will seek and adhere to is definitely a rational one.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (11/06/05 01:23 AM)

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Re: truth and irrationality [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4899353 -

At my house we have a really great toilet book. It is called "Unexplained" and is basically an encyclopedia of all unexplained phenomena. It does a very good job of just telling the facts and not leaning either way.
One really interesting passage i read today though dealt with Thunderstones. It went on to talk about how the scientific community scoffs and writes it off as illusory, yet the exact same thing happened with meteorites. For years, the "logical" group of scientists refuted the possibility of meteorites.

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Re: truth and irrationality [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4899366 -

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Who says the truth has to be rational?

Well, really, whether the truth "has" to be rational, is dependent on your situational goal.

What is your goal?

If your goal is to reach a more clearer understanding of calculus, then the truth that you will seek and adhere to is definitely a rational one.




:thumbup:

Draco, I used the word because thats the one used when people say they have to challenge peoples irrational beliefs to keep them from joining suicide cults. (I'm taking the following from a PM I got from someone a while back justifying their hyper aggressiveness here)

Where is the logic in deducing that someone who considers crop circles may not all be human made hoaxes is going to run off and join a suicide cult?

Maybe some people post about them because they think they are like pretty works of art or are into sacred geometry. Geez! :lol:

The message in the post was simple- if you care to keep people from offing themselves due to irrational beliefs, respond to suicide posts that go up or quit the Bull talk. You can still challenge the rationally of beliefs without that BS misleading drama excuse for doing it.

Maybe in your world logic alone gets you to some truth. I think using logic alone is being half brained myself. We are at our best when we can use both together and or just use the left brain to serve the right. I solve more problems in life using the creative abstract intuitive right side of my brain then I do my left. Deductive reasoning comes in handy a lot though and logic makes it when in when I am really being lazy and looking for short cuts.

Being analytical often gets me into nothing more then mental masturbation and then being anal about something.

Use your brain however it works best for you to get to truth and solutions that work for and serve you in your goals. What is truth anyway? I have asked here many times for just ONE absolute truth to pop up that we all can agree on and it never happens. Facts are facts and have there place but they aren't the end all to the all of it.

I live in a subjective world because I can't separate myself from myself to live in anything but my own subjectivity. All of my truths are subjective in nature, not objective, save for facts like my home address. Even that is the truth of my address, no one else's.

Florida is my home state and a land mass across the ocean to another. Which is the truth? They both are. If I move and they move, that truth can change.

I'm not hung up on this truth search like some people are because, to me, its like water. Try to grasp IT and IT will run through your fingers.

Considering I am tired now, it would be rational for me to go to bed. :wink:

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: truth and irrationality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4899690 -

gettinjiggywithit said:
Draco, I used the word because thats the one used when people say they have to challenge peoples irrational beliefs to keep them from joining suicide cults. (I'm taking the following from a PM I got from someone a while back justifying their hyper aggressiveness here)


Darcho. My name is Darcho.

Quote:
Where is the logic in deducing that someone who considers crop circles may not all be human made hoaxes is going to run off and join a suicide cult?


There isn't any. However, they may have valid form in their logical thinking/arguments, but there is no soundness. That is why it is called being irrational.

Quote:
The message in the post was simple- if you care to keep people from offing themselves due to irrational beliefs, respond to suicide posts that go up or quit the Bull talk. You can still challenge the rationally of beliefs without that BS misleading drama excuse for doing it.


This is on the verge of being senseless. You may want to reword this.

Quote:
Maybe in your world logic alone gets you to some truth. I think using logic alone is being half brained myself. We are at our best when we can use both together and or just use the left brain to serve the right. I solve more problems in life using the creative abstract intuitive right side of my brain then I do my left. Deductive reasoning comes in handy a lot though and logic makes it when in when I am really being lazy and looking for short cuts.


You must not really understand what it means for something to be true.

Quote:
Being analytical often gets me into nothing more then mental masturbation and then being anal about something.

Use your brain however it works best for you to get to truth and solutions that work for and serve you in your goals. What is truth anyway? I have asked here many times for just ONE absolute truth to pop up that we all can agree on and it never happens. Facts are facts and have there place but they aren't the end all to the all of it.


1. The world is all that is the case.
1.1 The world is the totality of facts, not of things.
1.11 The world is determined by the facts, and by their being all the facts.
1.12 For the totality of facts determines what is the case, and also whatever is not the case.
1.13 The facts in logical space are the world.
1.2 The world divides into facts.
1.21 Each item can be the case or not the case while everything else remains the same.

- Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus

Gotta have the facts man, or else you are living in a fantasy world.

Quote:
I live in a subjective world because I can't separate myself from myself to live in anything but my own subjectivity. All of my truths are subjective in nature, not objective, save for facts like my home address. Even that is the truth of my address, no one else's.


I bet that all of your truths are either facts (are true about the world) or are false-beliefs. One can believe that they know a truth, but if that truth turns out to disagree with the facts and is not very logical, then it is a false-belief.

Quote:
Florida is my home state and a land mass across the ocean to another. Which is the truth? They both are. If I move and they move, that truth can change.


Yes, truth changes in correspondence to the world. If I am in a chair right now, and then go sit on the toilet, it is true that I am on the toilet and no longer true that I am on the chair. These would be the facts.

Quote:
I'm not hung up on this truth search like some people are because, to me, its like water. Try to grasp IT and IT will run through your fingers.


It is true that I am typing on a keyboard right now. Well, that truth was easy enough to grasp. What next? It is true that I am breathing right now. OK, grasped that one. Whats next? etc..., etc....

Edited by Darcho (11/06/05 10:00 AM)

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Re: truth and irrationality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4899985 -

But what if your goal is to understand the only true reality - that is to say, there is only one true reality, the one that we all live in. Calculus is newton's attempts at modelling that - and while newton is a fantastic scientist, he also wrote trunks full of religious nonsense and died a virgin (shudder). The truths of the eyes are rational. The truths of the gut are visceral. The truths of the dick are hard.


--------------------
----
For those that know, no explanation is necessary. For those that do not know, no explanation may suffice.
-someone smarter than me

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Re: truth and irrationality [Re: isander]
    #4900008 -

"Truth is obvious, reality is instant!"
-Unknown ;P


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?

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Re: Hey challengers of "irrational" thinking [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4900076 -

gettinjiggywithit said:
Upon reading his first post, there was no indication of anything other then what was said. Who are you to decide, who's posts are real cries for help and who's are not?


I'm me. Thus, I am me to decide. Who are you?

Quote:
All comments people make about wanting to take their lives should be taken seriously. Most people who do it, talk about it first.


They should be taken however one wishes to take it. For example, "I wish to kill myself before I go to sleep today". ALL comments in such a nature MUST be taken seriously, eh? Take that one "seriously". :smirk:

Quote:
If people sincerely care to keep others from falling into beliefs that make them think something is better in death, then, they should know when shroomery members are talking like that so they can act to help.


I think it is pretty dramatic and revealing to take someone's expressions of their desire to commit suicide and use it to make some unrelated point to others. Shall I create a poll to see if everyone here thinks you were only motivated to make this post out of a dire need to get this person help? :rolleyes:

Taking into consideration your introduction, of course; "For those of you here who claim that you MUST challenge what is irrational thinking in your opinion to keep people from joining heavens gate like suicide cults because you care to keep people from irrationally offing themselves, here is someone to apply your care and concern too ASKING for your help. "

Quote:
If they don't sincerely care, then they should consider not making up excuses as if they do as a front for just wanting to discourage what is different from being talked about here.


I think that certain people should drop their subtle trolling concealed in a thin veil of requesting assistance in a possible suicide case and should stop seeking to gratify their dramatic needs.

Quote:
People around here talk about "getting real" and being "honest" with the self and maybe some of those people should consider the benefits of taking their own advise.


Thank god we have jiggy here to allude to certain un-nameable people here and to give them judgement publically. :lol:

Quote:
You put the mockery label in the wrong place. To mock means to pretend to be something you are not. I don't run around here saying that I challenge irrational beliefs because I don't want people joining suicide cults and then don't act to help the dozens of suicide posts that actually come up at the shroomery.


Maybe "these people" are not skilled in the ability to interact with a live suicide case and cannot handle such immediate pressure, but they are able to effectively debate beliefs and thoughts that might later develop into suicide? I bet you didn't think of that, did you? You just like jumping to the conclusions of these hollow, self-serving trolls because.... :shocked:

Quote:
I'm allowed to challenge irrational beleifs with skepticism too.


"Some can save the excuse and reasoning for why they do it. "

Quote:
What do you care? You're not one of the ones who says you do it to stop people from joining suicide cults. People can challenge the irrational. No need to protect that right here.


Who are you to question my interests and tell me why I shouldn't involve myself? I'm me. Who are you again? :grin:

Quote:
I think this "heavens gate" cry is played out because those crying it I never see help suicides here.


Your limited experience of these people is enough to decide that it is simply "played out"? I do believe that some of these people that you indirectly accuse have been directly involved in the disarming of a suicide on this very website. Judgement is impossible to pass down when you haven't considered all (or at least some :lol:) of the variables involved.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Hey challengers of "irrational" thinking [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4903849 -

Perhaps He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named prefers to counsel troubled members in PM's, rather than posting advice for all to see how very wise and wonderful he really is.  :wink:

Seriously, though, I prefer to write Private Messages when someone posts asking for help.  Even in an "anonymous" forum, people are more relaxed and open when they are not posting for all to see.

IMO you are jumping to conclusions, trolling, and skeptic-bashing with this thread.  What is the topic for debate?  Whether we should help suicidal members or not?

Yes, we should.  There.  I agree with you.  Does anyone DISAGREE?

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Re: Hey challengers of "irrational" thinking [Re: Veritas]
    #4904534 -

Veritas said:
What is the topic for debate?  Whether we should help suicidal members or not?


I questioned the topic for debate and the manner in which it was presented two days prior to the date when I made my most recent reply via the notify moderator function, and received no reply. Thus, I assume that posts in this manner are completely on-topic and acceptable, as well as any resulting replies. Is this true, or what? I had suggested it be deleted, or at least moved to some trolling forum or something... :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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