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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Independent Truth- a road to greater empowerment and freedom
    #3068779 - 08/30/04 01:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

a member said:
Quote:


Quote:

Everybody must find their own "truth". 




If everyone is supposed to find their own "truth", possibly conflicting with others' "truth", then that invalidates truth, doesn't it?  Truth can't conflict with truth. :confused:




Truth conflicts with truth every day in someones world. That is why their is conflict. It happens because everyone does have their own truth and all conflict stems from that. One person believes this and the other that. Even something as apparently "absolute" as 1+1 equaling 2 was disputed in the universal math post. It does equal 2 to someone in this linear dimension of sequence counting apples, but it may equal 3 to someone working with a multidimensional formula. BOTH can be true at the same time.  truth can expand upon itself while remain true at each step of the percpetion it was realised from.

For the person in the hands of an abuser, this world is a cruel, painful place of suffering. For the person in the hands of a gentile compassionate being this world is kind and joyful. Which one is right? Which one holds the right truth of what this world "is"?


consider that truth is completely independant relative to the percievers of it. Just because a majority are sharing the same perspective at the same time, doesn't mean it is the right truth and it doesn't mean any contridictory independant truths are wrong.

How many jurors have changed their minds about judgments after DNA evidence and more information was presented to them AFTER a case?

Newtons laws of physics are now being broken as further truths are being discovered about what can be possible. The old ones remain true from one perspective and the news ones are true from a different one.

I write this in consideration of those who wish to ease conflict in their life.

When we realise that truth is an independant experience relative to perception we can then become considerate of this and move to build bridges of understanding with respect for differences and broaden the scope of our world and universal view at the same time. We gain more choices and hense, experience a greater sense of freedom within what what can be and what we can be or not.

People tend to feel more empowered when they think they hold the "right " truth in this life. If they are shown a contridictory and conflicting one, they may assume they have been wrong and then feel 'weakened". It doesn't feel good which is why people fight to stay in "power".

In this light "right" truth is a weak source to generate your personal power from. it leaves you forever vulnerable to being made wrong and weakened until you realise you can be 'right" in your independant truth and so can another.

If you want to feel truly empowered and be the "bigger" person, then be the one who moves to understand another when conflicting truths arise. Be considerate that the other is "afirad" to understand you, because in their understanding, only one can be right, and they do not want to experience that feeling of becoming weak if they acknowledge your perspective as also being valid.

Show them how you can see the situation from both perspectives and how both can be valid. A small person sees one from one set of eyes and a larger person sees from two thre and into infinity. How large and powerful do you want to become?

When the conflict involves making a single choice of action, first look to create a compromise of two choices of action that serve both parties in their needs and wants. Where there is a will there is a way. Knowing that has gotten me through the toughest of hopeless jams and lost causes. I proved to myself that they were niether hopeless or lost when I looked for a way for everyone to get what they wanted. Thats being empowered and it starts with realising that two people can be in their own truth which requires different wants and needs.

I want to make a note for people who are concerned about being left behind when this magical gateway opens into a new world of peace, united harmony and co-operative co-creation. That world exist independantly right here and right now and you can create it for yourself at any time you wish.

If you hold steadfast to beleiving in things like there is only ONE right truth, you will be sourcing your personal power from a weak place living in a world of perpetual win loose conflict and in fear of being made wrong and weak and yes, there is no entering a new world until you start anew with your thinking.

In the case of the jurors, you can say, I beleived I made the right choice based on the information made available to me at the time. Now that more information has come into the picture, I believe I can make another choice, that is different about my verdict. being wrong never has to an issue. We go from being right to right to right as information is made available to us.

Information is "light" in spiritual speak. Information allows for you to see more and so does light in a dark place.

For others who believe in right and wrong truths and are doing their merkaba spins, and eating spirulina, the new world will never enter their reality by "magic" until you make the magic. You create it! People have been living in it for eons all around you. It's always been here as a potential waiting for you to realize it into your own life and many already have and are living in it.

This isn't an all or nothing change at any point. You can slowly play with it when conflict arises and see how big and large and empowered with a greater sense of choice freedom you can feel and experience without your having to be right and the other made wrong. I'm throwing this up as an experimental idea for the leary to play with and see for themselves if truth can be independant or not.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Independent Truth- a road to greater empowerment and freedom [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3068949 - 08/30/04 01:51 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

That is a tough one, jiggy. I am working on it. I mean, damn it, I'm right! But I found out that my reality isn't the only reality. I couldn't believe that people didn't see things my way. And then I have lately been discovering that I haven't been seeing things from their perspective, either.

Have to find common ground. Sometimes it doesn't matter if people don't understand your perspective or you don't understand theirs. Sometimes, the only thing you can do is figure out the common ground you can move to for the future.

Sometimes people get stuck on trying to figure out the past and what went wrong and who did what. Can get stuck in trying to assign blame or whatever.

Better to just figure out how to move on.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Independent Truth- a road to greater empowerment and freedom [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3070131 - 08/30/04 06:50 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

In my book, we can't figure you Truth because we're bound by our human perspective and our brain's nature, which is to categorise everything and narrow it down into causal relationships. What many to believe to be the pinnacle of human accomplishment, science, does exactly that, and thus can only convey the human perspective on reality, not a universal one.

To phrase it more radically: there is no objectivity. Any 'Truth' we come across, whether it's capitalised or not, is derived from our senses, and no one can deny they offer only a limited scope on life. If our sight wasn't based on photons, but instead on neutrinos, we wouldn't have the same social-constructivist world view we (as Occidentals) have now.
What's more, we can do without touch, scent and taste in most situations, relying on sight and hearing. Using instruments to visually represent frequencies we can't see or hear doesn't really expand our scope or make our own senses more reliable.
In my opinion, our senses can't be trusted. There are no solid objects, there is no true division between objects other than density.

What people have is guesses (under the guise of Truth). Anyone's guess is as good as another's. That's why it's important not to identify with the beliefs one holds.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Independent Truth- a road to greater empowerment and freedom [Re: Frog]
    #3070162 - 08/30/04 06:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

You brought up an interesting topic of "finding common ground". It works as a foundation to build realities and worlds upon to be sure!

I do find that it only works when people have enough respect and acceptance for each other to stand on the same ground anywhere it is to be found (and it always is-our humaness).

I remember a few years back another board, which was hunky dory with everyone exploring energy topics and this newbie fly's in critising us for having 'electrical signatures" and said we needed to freeze them and our tetrehedrons and become magnetic like he.
battles begun and finally I asked him, what is it that you can see that we all have in common here and lets start from there. he couldn't do it. What he couldn't do was stoop to our level because he was sooooooooooooo far ahead of us in the game. He felt he had to bring us up to his level and then he could share with us as equals.

Some times, common ground just can't be established when one feels they are too above you. It seems in those cases, one gets frustrated and makes a new choice to "move on in their independant truth" from anothers or a group. I have to get my daughter now, I want to get back to exploring all of these wonderful dynamics we play in, in the game of life.

Thanks for input frog!  :heart: :thumbup:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Independent Truth- a road to greater empowerment and freedom [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3070374 - 08/30/04 07:58 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Stone said:
If our sight wasn't based on photons, but instead on neutrinos, we wouldn't have the same social-constructivist world view we (as Occidentals) have now.




You brought up a lot of great considerations Alan! I liked the one above especially!

Realising the exsitance of independaent truth, how would you or anyone here go about solving conflict resolution related to it. Thats what I am mostly after here, sharing and hearing solutions!

Thanks for joining in! :heart: :thumbup:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Independent Truth- a road to greater empowerment and freedom [Re: Frog]
    #3071023 - 08/30/04 10:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Frog,

You also brought up a good element to explore, the element of getting 'stuck". I think using blame for some people is their method to move forward as in so and so is to blame, on to the sentencing and punishment and then on with life. LOL

In such a case, I would look to understand the cause of the problem and then move to remedy that and prevent it from being a causitive factor in the future, thereby giving me "freedom" from the same problem in the future and greater self empowerment via being able to prevent the undesirable from happening.

Sometimes becoming stuck is the result of someone being stubborn with only being able to see and live in their truth. That is another case in need of compromise or walking your own ways. The goal in these cases becomes a matter of walking your own way in peace and in understanding of the one who is stuck. That leaves the door open for future regathering after the stubborn unstick themselves.

Talk about ADD. I've been involved with so many other things since I was inspired to write the orginal post that I am out of the groove of this. LOL I had so much more to add on empowerment and experiencing greater freedom and.......................

Anyone else here have life issues with the ability to follow through on things? It's certainly one of my many to overcome.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Independent Truth- a road to greater empowerment and freedom [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3073989 - 08/31/04 03:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Glad to be of service.

Are you asking what I would do if there were to be independant truth? Or what the solution is to not being able to find any?


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Independent Truth- a road to greater empowerment and freedom [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3074142 - 08/31/04 04:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The topic came about to first raise awareness of independant truth and then from there, realising all of the conflict that results from it, and then finding ways to prevent and deal with the conflict while being in respect and consideration of independant truths.

In these ways, we can become more empowered over conflicts and free as more choices become made available to us.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Independent Truth- a road to greater empowerment and freedom [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3074152 - 08/31/04 04:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Do we really need to have independent truths? Like you said in your first post, if each person has their idea of what truth is, then there will always be conflicts.
The only answers i find to this problem would be
1) everyone has the same opinion of truth, which would be awkward because that would put an end to individuality
or 2) no one claims to know truth, making everyone constantly open to new ideas instead of having people hold on to their previous ideas of truth which is an egotistical way of working through life.

So i guess this kinda goes along with what Alan Stone said.
I'll just add that Truth is the medium between Mind and Reality. The only way to create a pure flow between Mind, Truth and Reality is not to get the Ego in the way. And this is where Mediation comes in. It lets you totally apply your mind on Reality. This would be my "truth": an almost complete connection between the mind and reality.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Independent Truth- a road to greater empowerment and freedom [Re: exclusive58]
    #3074182 - 08/31/04 04:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I liked your number 2 if everyone could live by it. do we have to have independant truth? It seems that we do weather we want to or not. Which is why I am seeking constructive ways to deal with the conflict that arises from it, without one having to give way to anothers truth. In other words, moving beyond ego power struggles.

Your method allows for you to connect with the truth of your reality. That may not be the truth of someone elses reality. How would you build a bridge between the two?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinebobbyrox
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Re: Independent Truth- a road to greater empowerment and freedom [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3074248 - 08/31/04 04:39 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

hey JIGGY its me BOBBYROX, you are hilarious!!!

I like that you aspire to seek wisdom. to me that's sexy in a girl because there aren't many who are like that.

I like this topic about independent truth. You should try reading KIERKEGAARD because he shares the same idea. You see, like kierke you have managed to uncover what FAITH is. Faith is a subjective, personal truth that can only be obtained through sense experience as opposed to reason. I like faith because instead of being uncovered through reason it is FELT through sense experience.

Another idea that is closely related to the idea about faith is RELATIVITY. Relativity is what you were talking about when you said that each person and era of time has thier own truth. so, basically truth is relative to a persons experience. Because truth is relative to one's own experience this truth is called FAITH. All truth is subjective and personal so therefore FAITH causes conflict amongst different people i.e. people from different backgrounds.

We're just living in a world of persuasion.



---------------------------------------
THERE IS NO KNOWLEDGE THAT IS NOT POWER. - MK3


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Independent Truth- a road to greater empowerment and freedom [Re: bobbyrox]
    #3074310 - 08/31/04 04:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Great addition to this topic!  :thumbup:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Independent Truth- a road to greater empowerment and freedom [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3074576 - 08/31/04 05:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Your method allows for you to connect with the truth of your reality. That may not be the truth of someone elses reality. How would you build a bridge between the two?





hmmm...actually i think my method allows my mind to connect with reality. IMO, this is THE 'truth'. This truth is that a tree is a tree, and this isn't everyone's truth because when some people see a tree they associate words to it such as ugly or pretty.
My truth is everyone's truth when the Ego fades away.

Everyone needs to make this revolution of the mind on their own. Everyone needs to observe the mind, and be in a continuous contemplative meditation so as not to be fooled by the ego. Do you understand what i'm tryin to say?
You should check out Krishnumarti, he gets deep into this whole subject and everything that relates to it.

I feel i already built my part of the bridge.
And i feel that the form in which my service to the world will take is to spread this idea, so that everyone can build their part of the bridge too. You just have to make people think for themselves about themselves, and spread love.


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Re: Independent Truth- a road to greater empowerment and freedom [Re: exclusive58]
    #3074714 - 08/31/04 06:04 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The external bridge is really an internal illusion. You have built your entire reality around the assumption of the external reality, yet you have only experienced your internal ripple of it, a subjective scan of the void that is objectivity.

That's why I understand entirely where jiggy is going with this topic, and I agree. It is impossible to escape yourself :smile:


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Re: Independent Truth- a road to greater empowerment and freedom [Re: deff]
    #3074869 - 08/31/04 06:47 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I claim that an objective subjective is possible.

There really isn't anything to "assume" about reality, that's what i'm trying to say, you have to see what is just as it is and nothing else.
After all, whatever our opinions on truth are, they all have THE reality as a root, except we associated different ideas to it which created different independent truths. We have to go back to our roots. We have to observe the mind to realize how we make assumptions and associations and immediately clear them out.

I'd like to hear what you got to say jiggy, about the independent truths because its rather ambiguous when you put it out like that. Do you think its possible that all of us have our own little independent truths without it resorting to any conflicts? Could you develop?


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Independent Truth- a road to greater empowerment and freedom [Re: exclusive58]
    #3078536 - 09/01/04 05:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

After all, whatever our opinions on truth are, they all have THE reality as a root



Define THE reality. There is none. We call 'reality' what human beings tend to experience. We can't escape being human anymore than we can escape existance.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Re: Independent Truth- a road to greater empowerment and freedom [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3078671 - 09/01/04 06:22 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I think that's too much of a radical approach to reality. This can easily lead us into a very complex discussion about the nature of reality.
But reality is very simple. THE reality is what is. Our egos like to complicate stuff though.
Like you said, there isn't a universal perspective on reality. But we are humans and there is a human perspective of reality.
You say that our brain's nature is to categorize everything and narrow it down into causal relationships. I say that this is the ego's nature.

I know what you mean though, but its too farfetched IMO. We have a common reality. Let's just stick with it you know?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Independent Truth- a road to greater empowerment and freedom [Re: exclusive58]
    #3078695 - 09/01/04 06:32 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for moving to help exculsive understand this Alan.

I started the post with an awareness of independant truth being a given and then from there, I wanted to discuss how to turn the conficts derived of it from a right wrong win loose power struggle into a right right win win easy transition for all involved.

Okay, lets say you have a tree. It's not about two people arguing over if the tree exists or not. Yes, they have that reality in common. The tree is there and it exists. Now one person see the tree as a nuisance for a myriad of good reasons to them and another sees it as blessing and wonderful thing. here's where independant truth begins. What if the one who sees it as a nuisance wants to cut it down? Now the conflict of independant truths begins. is it a debit or an asset? Who's right and who's wrong? Who will win their way and who will loose it?

Do either have to be wrong in their truth or loose their way to come to a mutual and benficial and peaceful agreement of what to do? I don't think so and I was exploring means for how to go about it.

Take a baseball game. You can put a video camera up covering the ball field the stands. The video camera is recording "THE" reality of it. So what! The video tape might as well not exist because everyone will be experiencing that event differntly. Did the game take place and were the people there? Yes. Thats the common reality they share. After that, independant truth kicks in.

Everyone who leaves that game will have their very own truth of what happened their that day. It will depend on where they were sitting, what they were paying attention too, what bia's, judgments, and prejudices they walked into the event with being applied to how the game went.

Does any of this help you to understand independent truth and the limitations of "the truth" and how independant truth, being what experience is made of, is what we are actually dealing with in life and personal relationships here?


I'm not reffering to science fact and fiction debates. I am talking about experiential realities.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Independent Truth- a road to greater empowerment and freedom [Re: exclusive58]
    #3078795 - 09/01/04 07:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I think I see where you are coming from exclusive. I think it's far fetched to expect everyone to agree on "what is" UNITL they can agree that indpendent truths are a part of "what is".

Are we getting somewhere now? LOL

I have a reply above this bTW, We double posted and I just caught your last one.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Independent Truth- a road to greater empowerment and freedom [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3081284 - 09/02/04 06:01 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Yes i understand what you are saying jiggy, and what I am saying is that if you want to turn the power struggle into a "right right win win" situation for all, then everyone will have to make this revolution of the mind i was talking about. Until then conflicts based on different "independent truths" are assured.

See, it isn't very complex, even if it can be kinda difficult. Bare with me for a minute here...
The thing is, we don't start by the real facts (i.e. what we think, do or desire). We start by supposition, or ideals, that have nothing real to them. This is why we get lost. If we want to start with reality and not with assumptions, we all individually have to be extremely attentive, and every thought that doesn't have reality as an origin is a distraction. This is why it is essential to understand what is really going on inside us and outside of us.
If you are Christian, you are going to have a certain type of perception of the world; if you're Buddhist or Muslim your perception will be based on different models. You see the Christ, or you see Krishna, according to your conditionning, and its your education, the culture you have been raised in that will determine your perception.
But in reality, is it the perception or the mind that has been moulded according to a model? The perception is the projection of the particular tradition that constitutes the backround of the mind. It is this conditionning that is reality, and not the perception one is projecting onto the world. It is simple to understand reality, but it is being made complicated by our preferences and our aversions, by our opinions and judgements on realiy.
To free ourselves from these diverse forms of evaluation, is to seize reality. It is to understand "what is".


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