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OfflineAlan Stone
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Personal Freedom
    #3218228 - 10/05/04 02:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

For clarity's sake: this thread isn't the nth rerun of freedom of choice posts, it's about practical freedom.

A friend and I were debating about this issue.

His stance on the matter:

Quote:

Freedom is an illusion. As long as people are globally required to be able to identify themselves, as long as there are laws on what you can and can't do, freedom will only be an illusion created by citizens of the West. Nevertheless, I want to strive towards global liberation, picking up arms if need be. I want to be able to live my live exactly the way I fucking want to live it, with no one superimposing/forcing their views on mine.





My own:

Quote:

Total freedom is indeed an illusion. We had no say in being born: the time, the place, the family, the numbers we were born in. We have no choice but to exist (in average circumstances) as bipedal mammals with a 1.5 litre brain and opposable thumbs. We can't change the laws of physics, we can't choose to live forever, we can't change our gender completely and we can't change the way global trade works at the moment.

That doesn't mean you cannot personally be free. If every responsibility you take is your own choice (and a result of your own actions), if every law you stick to is one you agree with, if you realise some battles are beyond your personal sphere of influence, then you're free. Practical personal freedom is a state of mind, not an absolute.




In conclusion, some examples. Some would say being forced to work can't be synonymous with freedom. If you choose your own job (or work towards being able to make the best choice out there), you choose your own responsibilities. If you choose your responsibilities yourself, how can you not be motivated to stick to them? How can you say you're not free?

Another example. Some (like my friend) would say being forced to identify yourself at the command of a police force doesn't equate to freedom. There are two arguments why this issue isn't relevant to your personal freedom (and the happiness that results from it), and one of those is you can't change anything about it. If you want to travel, you'll always have to identify yourself in some or other country, so you'll never be 'free'. The other is, there are bigger fish. Identification doesn't mess with a lot of choices you make.

Last example: drugs. You (and no one else) chooses which laws you'll follow and which you'll ditch since you regard them as ludicrous. Most of the members of these boards partake in "illegal" substances. However, those "illegal" substances are plants, and it ridiculous to outlaw plants. So, most of us will decide we'll do drugs anyway. The existance of these laws in no way limits your personal freedom if you don't morally enslave yourself to words on a paper.


On to my questions to you. What are your views on personal freedom? Are you free right now? Will you ever enjoy freedom? Is freedom important to you in any way?


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Personal Freedom [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3218302 - 10/05/04 03:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

the day i got full access to evreything, i live free? ;P

maby I got the power to act or speak or think without externally imposed restraints and feel immunity from an obligation or duty, would that make me have personal freedom??


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Edited by Gomp (10/05/04 03:11 PM)


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Personal Freedom [Re: Gomp]
    #3218329 - 10/05/04 03:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

maby I got the power to act or speak or think without externally imposed restraints and feel immunity from an obligation or duty, would that make me have personal freedom??




If you look under my own view, you'll see I'm saying freedom is a state of mind, and practical freedom can't be too obsessed with principals for it to work. If you yourself took the obligation or duty upon you, that wouldn't make you any less free, and if you didn't, by ignoring it you wouldn't be any less free either, would you?


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Personal Freedom [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3218356 - 10/05/04 03:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If you existed in a police state that controlled every aspect of society you could still be free in thought and action. Does that mean that life would be easy? No, of course not, who ever said being free was easy? As long as you have a choice you are free. Even in total solitary confinement you still retain the freedom to endure it or die. Freedom is not easy or comfortable.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineDankBluntZ
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Re: Personal Freedom [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3218625 - 10/05/04 04:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I'm still trying to come up with my stance on the issue but I would like to pose a question.

Do you see the US as a place with more freedom than other countries?

If you say freedom is defined by the ability to make a choice, then the following must be true.... , a woman in an Islamic country is free because even though she can be killed by not covering up her face she still retains the choice of whether or not to cover up her face before she leaves her home. No?


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Personal Freedom [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3218702 - 10/05/04 05:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Some would say being forced to work can't be synonymous with freedom.




You don't HAVE to work. You can starve.

Not working and requiring others to provide for you isn't being free, it's being lazy.. and I'm saying that as an unemployed SOB.

America's pretty free. Still have issues with drugs and freedom of speech is being eroded by thin-skinned jackasses leading sheltered lives.

You should be free to do whatever you want that does not interfere with others..ideally. If what you want to do is beat on someone else, well, that's not exercising freedom, that's being a jackass. However if you want to tell them they're a mother-lovin shithead.. that's freedom. You're rude, but it might be true, and if not it should be expected that people aren't emotionally fragile infants who must be coddled from words and images they find displeasing. Freedom doesn't mean freedom from discomfort.


--------------------
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revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Personal Freedom [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3218877 - 10/05/04 05:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You don't HAVE to work. You can starve.

Not working and requiring others to provide for you isn't being free, it's being lazy.. and I'm saying that as an unemployed SOB.




Whoa, hold your horses. That isn't exactly what I personally meant. I agree though.

I meant having to work (since starving isn't a practical choice) does not have to limit your freedom if you agree to the responsabilities and duties that particular job comes with. If you're a postman, it's your duty and responsability to get the packages and letters to people's doors. If you like the line of work, you'll gladly choose to accept those duties. If you don't like that kind of work, those duties might feel like they're limiting your personal freedom.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Personal Freedom [Re: DankBluntZ]
    #3218947 - 10/05/04 06:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Do you see the US as a place with more freedom than other countries



I'm not an American. No, I don't see the U.S. as a place with more freedom, because ANYONE - regardless where they live - can be free.

Quote:

If you say freedom is defined by the ability to make a choice



I'm saying freedom is defined by the willingness to make a choice and to accept the responsabilities that come with those choices.

Quote:

then the following must be true.... , a woman in an Islamic country is free because even though she can be killed by not covering up her face she still retains the choice of whether or not to cover up her face before she leaves her home. No?



Yes, if she accepts the jeopardy she puts herself into. If she's not overpowered by her fear of death, then, yes. The main thing here is (IMO) the willingness to make that same choice again, every single day of your life. If it's a defiance thing, she wouldn't be free, as reacting to an opressor isn't exactly independant behavior, she'd still be "ruled" by the men in her country.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Personal Freedom [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3219347 - 10/05/04 07:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

but i never chose to live :P


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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: Personal Freedom [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3220836 - 10/06/04 12:25 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

you are choosing to live right now.


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Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Personal Freedom [Re: Todcasil]
    #3221981 - 10/06/04 11:24 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Todcasil said:
you are choosing to live right now.




say what? how can i chose to live when i do not even know what life "is"...  :confused:


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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: Personal Freedom [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3221982 - 10/06/04 11:27 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i think you know.


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Personal Freedom [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3221984 - 10/06/04 11:29 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i do not know.
please inform me :P


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Personal Freedom [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3222062 - 10/06/04 11:59 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, freedom is the right to make a choice whenever you want to.
The problem is, that many 'institutions', conglomerates and ill people accumulate power to limit your force of choice.
Don't give it up, fight for your right to make 'the' choice.
Then you are not free, but fighting for freedom.

The worsest case I know is not to 'be able' to choose an autonom way of life within the nature. This is the biggest right, which is taken from us more and more. So you get more and more dependend, not free. Look beyond that curtain and the strategies !

The onliest problem with freedom is, that even some people are free to accumulate power, to enslave other people.
That's why we need neutral judges who care for the most freedom for everybody, which is, I think, a part of many democratic constitutions.

Remember, industrie and commerce, even capitalism are within the rules of freedom, as long that they don't shorten the freedom of others. That was right for long times, as humans had the choice to live an autonomous life and refuse the 'benefits' of modern culture. But that's changing more and more, so resistance for (balanced) freedom is not futile, because we are right and it is our right :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offline3eyes
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Re: Personal Freedom [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3222800 - 10/06/04 02:58 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I'm in the choice of self responsibility. whether there was pain involved in the consequence of making that choice. It is all up to us in how we deal with it and wehther we accept it or not.

I think we made a choice before incarnating and manifesting into the specific body in a specific location. To have more freedom to pursue things that would meet our needs or desire, we would have to work hard at expanding choices moving in a field where we have more options or freedom to make.

Yes i see myself free but not in free in the expectations of great things i have.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Personal Freedom [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3223011 - 10/06/04 03:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Gomp
but i never chose to live :P



*Sigh* I mentioned that in the initial post.

Quote:

From BlueCoyote:
The worsest case I know is not to 'be able' to choose an autonom way of life within the nature. This is the biggest right, which is taken from us more and more. So you get more and more dependend, not free. Look beyond that curtain and the strategies !



Yeah, but I'm saying you can't escape the way global economy works, it's a given. That's why my definition of freedom is only concerned with fighting the practical and attainable fights. Of course, what constitutes realistic fights is still up for debate.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Personal Freedom [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3223420 - 10/06/04 05:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

shure,.. but,

Quote:

Todcasil said:
you are choosing to live right now.





and i wonder how on earth he came to conclude that :wink: nice to expand my wiev on life you know? hhihi knowledge.. gee :confused:


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InvisibleSimisu
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Re: Personal Freedom [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3223612 - 10/06/04 06:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i don't think you can be free with in a society... society has rules and codes of conduct (you are supposed to obay or go with it but if you don't you will be punished and your natural rights would be taken from you)

you would be really free if rules were optional (sounds crazy i know BUT... if laws were made only as guide lines and every act would be judged with no bias... as if it was THE act and not just something that's listed somewhere "thou shalt not" style... laws are made for a reason (most often a sane one) but our society is so big and complex and taken advantage of that sometimes the real reason is being forgotten and you are not judged by the "truth" but by some cold letters on a sheet of paper...)
when rules are an option then the only time you can be rightfully prosecuted is if you actualy did something wrong... you were free to make a choice but it was a wrong choice which deserves to be punnished
of course this brings up the question was constetutes a punishment and what is it good for (punishment is to "deter" people from making bad things right?) and also the fact that people would have to be responsible and actualy hold THEM SELVES responsible for something...
that's pretty hard to belive in a world where people relay on god to take their responsibilety (or the govrement or cercumstances or eminem :smile: )

my conclution is this...
people can only be free if they truly relay on them selves (out side of society) and nature...
the whole idea of countries is unnatural but unfotunatly imperative (as well as mess transportation/laws/big crops/supermarkets/suage systems/electrisaty/citys/roads and on and on and on...)

you'd have to redifine freedome!
that's why i agree with terence mekannea when he talks about "forward escape" we can not go back to rural/trible life... we have to make sense of what we got...

good luck!


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Personal Freedom [Re: Simisu]
    #3227381 - 10/07/04 02:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, but I'm saying you can't escape the way global economy works, it's a given. That's why my definition of freedom is only concerned with fighting the practical and attainable fights. Of course, what constitutes realistic fights is still up for debate.

I think, it's more important to relate the given to the nature (primarely earth and sun, then of course minerals, fauna and flora, you know what I mean), which supports us with all we could need as humans (includes manifesting our spirit and intellect).
So I don't see the way of global economic, which is what humans make of that given nature, as an unchangeable.
The way, global economics work these days, is more a second or third step on the ladder of evolution realisation from the human spirit, in struggle for controlling the nature and himself.

The human mind and spirit is the most threat for personal freedom these days.
:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Personal Freedom [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #3227698 - 10/07/04 03:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So I don't see the way of global economic, which is what humans make of that given nature, as an unchangeable.



It's not unchangeable, that's correct. But in the context of one human being's lifetime, it's (almost) set in stone from a practical viewpoint.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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