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OfflineTheCow
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 4,790
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Freedom
    #2089456 - 11/10/03 03:12 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

How does one truly attain freedom? It seems to me that there are two paths to attain freedom. Either everyone can live in harmony and peace, and thus everyone is truly free. Or, one can gain power such as a dictator, and then control everything, thus having ultimate freedom. They are two means to the same end, but on very opposite sides of the spectrum. Does anyone else find this odd? Or am I mistaken in this.


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Freedom [Re: TheCow]
    #2089469 - 11/10/03 03:16 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

do you have any clue of what you are talking about?
Quote:

Either everyone can live in harmony and peace, and thus everyone is truly free



how would that be freedom?
Quote:

Or, one can gain power such as a dictator, and then control everything, thus having ultimate freedom



and how would that be freedom? you are very ill informed. ultimate freedom would be for one to have free will. free will is freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention. in both cases there is prior cause therefore in both cases you are not free.


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OfflineTheCow
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 4,790
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Re: Freedom [Re: spud]
    #2089488 - 11/10/03 03:25 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Im sorry for not agreeing with you....I guess that makes me a bad person in your eyes. But whatever. A dictator has the freedom to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. He IS free. If we all lived in perfect harmony, anything you wanted to do would be harmonious thus no one would have a problem with it, thus you could do as you freely wish. Maybe you wouldnt have the freedom to kill people, so I am going to say that possobly only a dictator is free. Free will does not = freedom. I have free will to smoke a joint in front of a cop, but I will then get in trouble. If I had absolute freedom, I could do it, and nothing would come of it. I make that distinction because in my eyes freedom is the ability to do what you want without worrying about the consequences. I realize that is not feasible, unless you are a dictator or king of sorts.
free?dom ( P ) Pronunciation Key (frdm)
n.
The condition of being free of restraints.
Now please respond to what I am saying instead of making fun of me.


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Freedom [Re: TheCow]
    #2089500 - 11/10/03 03:29 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

he does not have the freedom to do whatever he wants. you said freedom was the lack of restraints
Main Entry: re?straint
Pronunciation: ri-'strAnt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French restrainte, from restraindre
Date: 15th century
1 a : an act of restraining : the state of being restrained b (1) : a means of restraining : a restraining force or influence (2) :
restraints could be enviroment, weather, the way he was raised, what television show he watched that morning, how he was feeling that day, whether or not he got laid, or anything that would alter the "norm" way of thinking for the day. for some reason you think absolute freedom is the ability to act without any consequences. there is always consequences, even if you smoked a joint and didnt get caught that is a consequence, you only label getting arrested a consequence because it is not as appealing as being free (by free i mack lack of being in jail). i recommend you read some work on freedom and free will by David Hume.


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OfflineTheCow
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Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 4,790
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Re: Freedom [Re: spud]
    #2089548 - 11/10/03 03:48 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

That is a valid point, and one I had not thought of. So let me clarify. I mean freedom over things he can control. No man can yet control the weather. No one can control how he was raised. However, he could control TV, if he gets laid or not. So I mean the dictator has complete freedom over anything that can be controlled by man.


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Freedom [Re: TheCow]
    #2089562 - 11/10/03 03:53 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

think about this
psychologists have PROVEN that about 50% of who we are comes from our environment. they also proved that we are greatly most influenced from ages 1-6, ages where we have no control. the other 50% of who we are is from our genes, something else we have no control of. so even if someone like you does believe in free will, you must know the fact that we played a very little roll if any in deciding who we are and who we are is the basis of what deicions we make therefore we are not fully responsible for what decisions we make. keep in mind its not exactly 50/50, they are starting to prove its a little more nurture than nature but thats about the ratio. the ratio doesnt really matter which is more enviroment and which is more genetics because you still have no control of both either because not being able to control your genes or lack of ability to control your enviroment because of young age. this doesnt mean much to me because i dont believe in free will.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,851
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 month, 14 days
Re: Freedom [Re: spud]
    #2089588 - 11/10/03 04:07 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

spud said:
so even if someone like you does believe in free will, you must know the fact that we played a very little roll if any in deciding who we are and who we are is the basis of what deicions we make therefore we are not fully responsible for what decisions we make.




Bullshit. While who we are today is definitely a result of what happened to us in the past, especially when we were young, and our surroundings obviously have an effect on what we do right now, the fact remains that EVERYONE can COMPLETELY deicide who we are.

Of course, discovering the means by which to do so can be said to come from the environment. Sure. However, I can actively make myself. If I decide that I want to become a public speaker, even though every experience I have had in my childhood and in my life negate the fact that I could publicly speak, I could start to develop that skill.

Everything is a skill to be developed. Who you are right now isn't who you are always going to be. Most people accept this. However, the past is in the past. Who you were yesterday doesn't have to play any part in who you are today or tomorrow. Actors will tell you this.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Freedom [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2089591 - 11/10/03 04:08 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

you are missing the point. the fact that you would even want to be a public speaker comes from your enviroment, past events, and genetics. everything has a cause and that cause is not up to you.


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Offlinemanna_man
High onlife.....andcrack

Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 481
Loc: Vancouver
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: Freedom [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2089593 - 11/10/03 04:09 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Death is true freedom


--------------------
This post is protected under copyrite law.All above content is strictly the property of ?manna_man.Any infringement of copyright property is strictly prohibited.Any violators will be stretched, shot, and then vaporized into a state of anti-matter, where they will cease to exist.


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Freedom [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2089598 - 11/10/03 04:11 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

you think "yesterday" plays no roll in today. are you aware that the flapping of a butterfly's wings can cause typhoons over time?
i suggest you read up on the chaos theory.
also lets say you are like its up to me whether or not i want to get up.
if you get up you only got up therefore you dont have free will.
if you stayed down you only could stay down therefore you dont have free will. whether or not you wanted to stand up or sit down is deteremined by who you are as a product. i dont know if you are familiar with psychology but they have proven ages 1-6 your brain goes under certain imprinting that is impossible to over ride.


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Freedom [Re: manna_man]
    #2089600 - 11/10/03 04:12 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

care to explain how so?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,851
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Re: Freedom [Re: spud]
    #2089627 - 11/10/03 04:21 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, I am aware of chaos theory. I am aware that everything that happens was GOING to inevitably happen because of what happened before.

No matter what we ever do, we will do it because it we were going to do it. I agree with this.

But we are free to make any available choices. I am not acting as if yesterday plays no role in what happens today. I don't deny that. All I am saying is that patterns of behaviour that we develop end up making our choices for us when they don't have to.

So, if I wanted to become a public speaker although the thought of such pretty much wrenches my stomach, I could start working towards becoming a public speaker.

This isn't about prior actions creating who we are or what we do. This is about ourselves limiting our options. Whatever we end up doing naturally was going to happen anyways because of the path of least resistance, because this particle flew this way and this particle flew tha way, but that has nothing to do with us actively making choices right now.

It is really hard to explain what I mean, but do you get what I am saying?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Freedom [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2089634 - 11/10/03 04:22 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

yes you could start working to become a public speaker but your desire to even go this way was not created becasue of you but rather because of other exterior factors. maybe its up to you to work to become one but your want to become one wasnt up to "you"


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,851
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 month, 14 days
Re: Freedom [Re: spud]
    #2089666 - 11/10/03 04:30 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

spud said:
yes you could start working to become a public speaker but your desire to even go this way was not created becasue of you but rather because of other exterior factors. maybe its up to you to work to become one but your want to become one wasnt up to "you" 




I agree with you. What makes us "us" has been created by every experience we have had, and our DNA. However, this can be taken for a good thing or a bad thing.

While I still recoginze all of this, I don't live my life thinking about it. I think it is important to live your life independant of this. I mean, what makes us who we are has been determined by other things, but it is still us. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Freedom [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2089679 - 11/10/03 04:33 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

there is a quote by famous philosophers (i forget which group) who did not believe in free will. i found it kinda funny it goes something like this. "Just go with the flow. You cant control anything besides your attitude"

even though that isnt true because you wouldnt be able to control your attitude either but yea.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,851
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 month, 14 days
Re: Freedom [Re: spud]
    #2089696 - 11/10/03 04:40 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Hehe, yeah, I am sure we believe the same thing. It all just comes down to the attitude you take towards that belief and what you do with that belief in mind, I guess. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Freedom [Re: spud]
    #2089702 - 11/10/03 04:43 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

err i mean they didnt believe in free will, my bad, but yea


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OfflineSmaug
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 204
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Freedom [Re: spud]
    #2090553 - 11/10/03 10:00 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

If I was free I'd be able to transform into a dragon and fly through the sky. Being free means having no boundaries, IMO. Everything can and will happen.


--------------------


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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: Freedom [Re: Smaug]
    #2090933 - 11/11/03 12:55 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Finally spud and smaug, seem to understand. IF something caused you to make a choice, then u really had no choice, you only had the illusion of choice or illusion of other options. Second if you make a "choice" spontaniously with out a cause, then it is a random event. You cannot control or predict randomness, thus you cannot inact any kind of will over it. Limited freedom isn't really freedom at all, to say that freedom can be limited is a contradiction. True freedom is utter randomness, and the ideas of limited freedom and freewill are utter nonsense, they are conceptions based on appearant reallity, not actual reality, or actually maybe its more accurate to say they are delusions based on desires or fears, that really some of us can't help but have because we have no freewill, we are faited to believe or not believe in freewill. There is no freedom only uncertainy, and thank god for it, because it would sure suck to know that your whole life was going to suck and there isn't anything you can do about it, and there isn't. Ofcourse on the flip side if things are going good there is always the chance that tomorrow they wont be. You may not have the comfort of knowing tomorrow will be good, but atleast you dont have the torture of knowing it wont be. People want there to be some mystical thing between randomness and determinism but there isn't, how could there be? Fireworks is saying that we couldn't have done anything other then we did, yet somehow we still had the option to do something else, and that is completely illogical. He sounds like a man who knows the truth, but refuses to believe, but even if thats so, he is faited at present to believe what he believes, but in my opinion he's still one step ahead of most people, probably. Ofcourse i can't help but have that opinion in this moment.
For more detailed arguements and info, see Big questions (thoughts on freewill) post.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Freedom [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2090960 - 11/11/03 01:15 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

yea i completley agree. its always funny talking about free will not existing because that would mean we had to talk about it...iono if you think about it deeply its quit odd. thinking about lack of free will can be scary.


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