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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1,121
Loc: red earth painted with mi...
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
thoughts on freedom....
    #2073028 - 11/05/03 01:39 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

freedom cannot be preconceived. to realize freedom requires an alert mind, a mind that is deep with energy, a mind that is capable of immediate perception without the process of graduation, without the idea of an end to be slowly achieved. preformations simply lack the flexibility to adapt to the ever-changing. where there is method, freedom is not. "how then, do we gain this unlimited freedom?" i can not tell you b/c it will then become an approach. although, i can tell you what is not, i cannot tell you what is. "That" my friend, you will have to find out all by yourself, for there is no help, but self help... freedom lies in understanding yourself from moment to moment. great sensitivity = great freedom.


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: thoughts on freedom.... [Re: CleverName]
    #2073063 - 11/05/03 01:52 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

where there is method, freedom is not.

This is not always the case. If you're mindful, you're free.

Too often, the term freedom is misapplied to those with much power.
The selfish, even if supremely powerful, are not free.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1,121
Loc: red earth painted with mi...
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: thoughts on freedom.... [Re: Sclorch]
    #2074747 - 11/05/03 10:02 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

"This is not always the case. If you're mindful, you're free."

i agree, mindfulness is freedom. although, the more complicated and restricted the method, the lesser the opportunity for the expression of ones original sense of freedom. hmm, yes, who says we have to "gain" freedom? freedom has always been with us and is not something to be gained at the end through following some particular formulas. we do not "become," we simply "are." expression must be free. this liberating truth becomes reality only in proportion to its being experienced and lived in its suchness by the individual himself. free=the absence of feeling of external constraint. not free=the absence of the feeling of external constraint. different people feel free in different ways. therefore, it is in degree....the question should then be, "how free are we?"


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineNiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Female User Gallery

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
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Re: thoughts on freedom.... [Re: CleverName]
    #2075535 - 11/06/03 01:27 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You may be interested in the writings of Hakim Bey,

www.hermetic.com/bey

It's all about ways to take freedom here and now, spontaneously or otherwise and inspire others to do the same. I'm quite fond of the idea of "poetic terrorism." And fully intend to do some of that very soon.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: thoughts on freedom.... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2075947 - 11/06/03 03:47 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

freedom is not mindfulness, mindfulness is just being completely(or more) aware of what your doing, but you still cant help but do what your doing and in which case you cant help but be mindful if that is what you are doing. Refer to Big questions (comments on free will) posts and my other posts for a much more detailed explanation for why free will doesn't exist. the only true freedom is randomness, and randomn events dont allow you to excersise your will, they cant be controlled thus randomness cannot lead to free will, without randomness everything is predetermined in which case you are destined to do what you are going to do.
Sincerely,
That which is and has no choice but to be


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,851
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 day, 18 hours
Re: thoughts on freedom.... [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2076070 - 11/06/03 05:03 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Everything is predetermined. Hit the rewind button on the Universe, all the way back to the Big Bang (well, what we call our Universe, as the way I see it, our Universe is only a miniscule particle composing another Universe on that level, but that's not the discussion). Fucking hit play and it will happen the exact same way.

So, if we assume that everything that we know as the Universe exploded from one particle or whatnot, (not really knowledgeable in science) there is a reason that this particle flew this way and that one flew that way. If it happened again, I am sure that it would happen the exact same way. Was it mere chance that this particle here flew in that direction? Randomness? Nah.

Everything is predetermined. Everything happens because of what happened before it. Hit rewind and play it again. It will happen the same way. Everything follows the path of least resistance, I guess.

However, this has nothing to do with our choices right here and right now. Well, it does, because when we do something, we were going to do it. That was predetermined. However, we don't see this. We are free to make any choice that is available to us because we have this freedom. The choices we make were going to be made anyways, but we are still free to make them.

Mindfulness isn't freedom, but being mindful usually allows one to consciously make decisions. Being mindful is like letting yourself see the freedom of will and then exercising it. Being mindful means that ones actions aren't forced by the need of fufillment of some addiction. The more conscious you are, the more freedom you have in making your own choices.

So, free will exists, but only as an illusion. However, it is an illusion that we are suspossed to see. The choices we end up making were going to be made anyways, but that doesn't mean we don't make decisions for ourselves. Time is just an illusion anyways.. :grin:
Peace.




--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: thoughts on freedom.... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2077860 - 11/06/03 07:21 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)



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What?


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1,121
Loc: red earth painted with mi...
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: thoughts on freedom.... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2078328 - 11/06/03 09:49 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

everything is a state of mind...being mindful allows one to experience life directly. do we agree on this?


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,851
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 day, 18 hours
Re: thoughts on freedom.... [Re: CleverName]
    #2079474 - 11/07/03 03:19 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CleverName said:
everything is a state of mind...being mindful allows one to experience life directly.  do we agree on this? 




Indeed. See my recent post I made about coming more aware... I find that I feel life more. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: thoughts on freedom.... [Re: CleverName]
    #2079480 - 11/07/03 03:21 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

free will does not exist therefore freedom can not exit. pure freedom would be randomness.



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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: thoughts on freedom.... [Re: spud]
    #2079741 - 11/07/03 05:06 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

i already explained in my other posts in a logically constent manner how even if you rewind time how the conditions surrounding your choice will be different because of random quantum events having the opportunity to have different outcomes, and that they will lead to different conditions surrounding your choice, thus possibly CAUSING you to make a different choice but not a free choice, because it was caused by out side forces effecting you and your environment. Without quantum randomness if you rewind time, you have to make the same choice because everything would be the same assuming u were not aware of your previous choice. There would be any reason for doing anything different. Also if you are aware of your previous choice then the conditions surrounding your do over are not the same as they were when the initial choice was made thus invalidating the whole experiment.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: thoughts on freedom.... [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2079859 - 11/07/03 05:53 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

free will has nothing to do with being able to make a different choice, its being able to make a choice that isnt pre determined nor based on previous factors.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
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Re: thoughts on freedom.... [Re: spud]
    #2079870 - 11/07/03 06:04 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

True spud, but then that would be a randomn choice, that is the very definition of randomness, but randomness cannot be controled nor predicted so there is no will to excersise, thus no free will, because it will be randomness that causes or contributes to the causes that MAKE you, CAUSE you to choose whatever you choose, but really u had no choice in what you chose. You need complete control which would necessarily have to include the ability to forsee every possible effect of how you excersise your control to have free will, and that isnt possible. I line the arguements out supporting all this in Big questions post, and some other recent posts.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: thoughts on freedom.... [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2080572 - 11/07/03 12:20 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

yes, which is why i am saying free will does not exist.


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: thoughts on freedom.... [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2080584 - 11/07/03 12:24 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

also keep in mind that free will would not lead to randomness, there are many who believe free will would not be random but instead a certain type of "cause" (im not saying this makes sense nor am i saying i believe it because any form of a cause would defy free will to me). the most respected person who believes this is David Humes, one of the greatest philosophers to ever live.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: thoughts on freedom.... [Re: spud]
    #2082889 - 11/08/03 02:36 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

i know what your saying spud. People are saying that freewill somehow exists between randomness and determinism, yet no one can begin to explain how, or how it might even be possible. But they cling to their faith blindly all the same. Personaly i prefer faith based on logical reasoning. Its still faith because i can never know if i'm right, i can only believe i am, or probably am, But to me thats better then believing in something just because the alternative is unappealing.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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