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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Truth is a pathless land
    #2124044 - 11/20/03 12:13 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Perhaps you will never look at God/Religion the same way again.

http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/the_truth.asp

Truth is a pathless land.

The Order of the Star in the East was founded in 1911 to proclaim the coming of the World Teacher. Krishnamurti was made Head of the Order. On August 2, 1929, the opening day of the annual Star Camp at Ommen, Holland, Krishnamurti dissolved the Order before 3000 members.


Below is the full text of the talk he gave on that occasion.


We are going to discuss this morning the dissolution of the Order of the Star. Many people will be delighted, and others will be rather sad. It is a question neither for rejoicing nor for sadness, because it is inevitable, as I am going to explain.

You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend of his were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, “What did that man pick up?” “He picked up a piece of Truth,” said the devil. “That is a very bad business for you, then,” said his friend. “Oh, not at all,” the devil replied, “I am going to let him organize it.

I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley. If you would attain to the mountain-top you must pass through the valley, climb the steeps, unafraid of the dangerous precipices.

So that is the first reason, from my point of view, why the Order of the Star should be dissolved. In spite of this, you will probably form other Orders, you will continue to belong to other organizations searching for Truth. I do not want to belong to any organization of a spiritual kind, please understand this. I would make use of an organization which would take me to London, for example; this is quite a different kind of organization, merely mechanical, like the post or the telegraph. I would use a motor car or a steamship to travel, these are only physical mechanisms which have nothing whatever to do with spirituality. Again, I maintain that no organization can lead man to spirituality.

If an organization be created for this purpose, it becomes a crutch, a weakness, a bondage, and must cripple the individual, and prevent him from growing, from establishing his uniqueness, which lies in the discovery for himself of that absolute, unconditioned Truth. So that is another reason why I have decided, as I happen to be the Head of the Order, to dissolve it. No one has persuaded me to this decision.

This is no magnificent deed, because I do not want followers, and I mean this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth. I am not concerned whether you pay attention to what I say or not. I want to do a certain thing in the world and I am going to do it with unwavering concentration. I am concerning myself with only one essential thing: to set man free. I desire to free him from all cages, from all fears, and not to found religions, new sects, nor to establish new theories and new philosophies. Then you will naturally ask me why I go the world over, continually speaking. I will tell you for what reason I do this: not because I desire a following, not because I desire a special group of special disciples. (How men love to be different from their fellow-men, however ridiculous, absurd and trivial their distinctions may be! I do not want to encourage that absurdity.) I have no disciples, no apostles, either on earth or in the realm of spirituality.

Nor is it the lure of money, nor the desire to live a comfortable life, which attracts me. If I wanted to lead a comfortable life I would not come to a Camp or live in a damp country! I am speaking frankly because I want this settled once and for all. I do not want these childish discussions year after year.

One newspaper reporter, who interviewed me, considered it a magnificent act to dissolve an organization in which there were thousands and thousands of members. To him it was a great act because, he said: “What will you do afterwards, how will you live? You will have no following, people will no longer listen to you.” If there are only five people who will listen, who will live, who have their faces turned towards eternity, it will be sufficient. Of what use is it to have thousands who do not understand, who are fully embalmed in prejudice, who do not want the new, but would rather translate the new to suit their own sterile, stagnant selves? If I speak strongly, please do not misunderstand me, it is not through lack of compassion. If you go to a surgeon for an operation, is it not kindness on his part to operate even if he cause you pain? So, in like manner, if I speak straightly, it is not through lack of real affection-on the contrary.

As I have said, I have only one purpose: to make man free, to urge him towards freedom, to help him to break away from all limitations, for that alone will give him eternal happiness, will give him the unconditioned realization of the self.

Because I am free, unconditioned, whole-not the part, not the relative, but the whole Truth that is eternal-I desire those, who seek to understand me to be free; not to follow me, not to make out of me a cage which will become a religion, a sect. Rather should they be free from all fears-from the fear of religion, from the fear of salvation, from the fear of spirituality, from the fear of love, from the fear of death, from the fear of life itself. As an artist paints a picture because he takes delight in that painting, because it is his self-expression, his glory, his well-being, so I do this and not because I want anything from anyone.

You are accustomed to authority, or to the atmosphere of authority, which you think will lead you to spirituality. You think and hope that another can, by his extraordinary powers--a miracle-transport you to this realm of eternal freedom which is Happiness. Your whole outlook on life is based on that authority.

You have listened to me for three years now, without any change taking place except in the few. Now analyze what I am saying, be critical, so that you may understand thoroughly, fundamentally. When you look for an authority to lead you to spirituality, you are bound automatically to build an organization around that authority. By the very creation of that organization, which, you think, will help this authority to lead you to spirituality, you are held in a cage.

If I talk frankly, please remember that I do so, not out of harshness, not out of cruelty, not out of the enthusiasm of my purpose, but because I want you to understand what I am saying. That is the reason why you are here, and it would be a waste of time if I did not explain clearly, decisively, my point of view.

For eighteen years you have been preparing for this event, for the Coming of the World Teacher. For eighteen years you have organized, you have looked for someone who would give a new delight to your hearts and minds, who would transform your whole life, who would give you a new understanding; for someone who would raise you to a new plane of life, who would give you a new encouragement, who would set you free-and now look what is happening! Consider, reason with yourselves, and discover in what way that belief has made you different-not with the superficial difference of the wearing of a badge, which is trivial, absurd. In what manner has such a belief swept away all the unessential things of life? That is the only way to judge: in what way are you freer, greater, more dangerous to every Society which is based on the false and the unessential? In what way have the members of this organization of the Star become different?

As I said, you have been preparing for eighteen years for me. I do not care if you believe that I am the World-Teacher or not. That is of very little importance. Since you belong to the organization of the Order of the Star, you have given your sympathy, your energy, acknowledging that Krishnamurti is the World-Teacher- partially or wholly: wholly for those who are really seeking, only partially for those who are satisfied with their own half-truths.

You have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how many difficulties there are in the way of your understanding, how many complications, how many trivial things. Your prejudices, your fears, your authorities, your churches new and old-all these, I maintain, are a barrier to understanding. I cannot make myself clearer than this. I do not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I want you to understand what I am saying.

This understanding is necessary because your belief has not transformed you but only complicated you, and because you are not willing to face things as they are. You want to have your own gods-new gods instead of the old, new religions instead of the old, new forms instead of the old-all equally valueless, all barriers, all limitations, all crutches. Instead of old spiritual distinctions you have new spiritual distinctions, instead of old worships you have new worships. You are all depending for your spirituality on someone else, for your happiness on someone else, for your enlightenment on someone else; and although you have been preparing for me for eighteen years, when I say all these things are unnecessary, when I say that you must put them all away and look within yourselves for the enlightenment, for the glory, for the purification, and for the incorruptibility of the self, not one of you is willing to do it. There may be a few, but very, very few.

So why have an organization?

Why have false, hypocritical people following me, the embodiment of Truth? Please remember that I am not saying something harsh or unkind, but we have reached a situation when you must face things as they are. I said last year that I would not compromise. Very few listened to me then. This year I have made it absolutely clear. I do not know how many thousands throughout the world-members of the Order-have been preparing for me for eighteen years, and yet now they are not willing to listen unconditionally, wholly, to what I say.

As I said before, my purpose is to make men unconditionally free, for I maintain that the only spirituality is the incorruptibility of the self which is eternal, is the harmony between reason and love. This is the absolute, unconditioned Truth which is Life itself. I want therefore to set man free, rejoicing as the bird in the clear sky, unburdened, independent, ecstatic in that freedom . And I, for whom you have been preparing for eighteen years, now say that you must be free of all these things, free from your complications, your entanglements. For this you need not have an organization based on spiritual belief. Why have an organization for five or ten people in the world who understand, who are struggling, who have put aside all trivial things? And for the weak people, there can be no organization to help them to find the Truth, because Truth is in everyone; it is not far, it is not near; it is eternally there.


Organizations cannot make you free. No man from outside can make you free; nor can organized worship, nor the immolation of yourselves for a cause, make you free; nor can forming yourselves into an organization, nor throwing yourselves into works, make you free. You use a typewriter to write letters, but you do not put it on an altar and worship it. But that is what you are doing when organizations become your chief concern. “How many members are there in it?” That is the first question I am asked by all newspaper reporters. “How many followers have you? By their number we shall judge whether what you say is true or false.” I do not know how many there are. I am not concerned with that. As I said, if there were even one man who had been set free, that were enough.

Again, you have the idea that only certain people hold the key to the Kingdom of Happiness. No one holds it. No one has the authority to hold that key. That key is your own self, and in the development and the purification and in the incorruptibility of that self alone is the Kingdom of Eternity.

So you will see how absurd is the whole structure that you have built, looking for external help, depending on others for your comfort, for your happiness, for your strength. These can only be found within yourselves.

You are accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, what is your spiritual status. How childish! Who but yourself can tell you if you are beautiful or ugly within? Who but yourself can tell you if you are incorruptible? You are not serious in these things.

But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that which is eternal, without beginning and without an end, will walk together with a greater intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become the flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that real understanding there will be true friendship. Because of that true friendship-which you do not seem to know-there will be real cooperation on the part of each one. And this not because of authority, not because of salvation, not because of immolation for a cause, but because you really understand, and hence are capable of living in the eternal. This is a greater thing than all pleasure, than all sacrifice.

So these are some of the reasons why, after careful consideration for two years, I have made this decision. It is not from a momentary impulse. I have not been persuaded to it by anyone. I am not persuaded in such things. For two years I have been thinking about this, slowly, carefully, patiently, and I have now decided to disband the Order, as I happen to be its Head. You can form other organizations and expect someone else. With that I am not concerned, nor with creating new cages, new decorations for those cages. My only concern is to set man absolutely, unconditionally free.








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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Truth is a pathless land [Re: chodamunky]
    #2124528 - 11/20/03 09:23 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

what are your thoughts? care to summurize (yeah I suck that bad at speling :lol:)?? it's a lot better if you do it, because when you put things in your own words, a deeper understand developes.  maybe even apply it to a situation perhaps. 


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleHefex78
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Registered: 05/12/03
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*DELETED* [Re: kaiowas]
    #2124670 - 11/20/03 11:03 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Post deleted. Reason for deletion: Confidential.


Edited by Wa7sum (10/03/07 11:07 AM)


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InvisibleTheHateCamel
Research &Development -DBK
Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 15,738
Re: Truth is a pathless land [Re: chodamunky]
    #2124678 - 11/20/03 11:06 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

.


Edited by TheHateCamel (12/07/07 08:35 PM)


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Truth is a pathless land [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #2124702 - 11/20/03 11:22 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Veddy interestink...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Truth is a pathless land [Re: chodamunky]
    #2125042 - 11/20/03 02:29 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

I don't believe that story about the devil.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
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Re: Truth is a pathless land [Re: chodamunky]
    #2125238 - 11/20/03 03:47 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Eighteen years you've allowed us to follow you as the latest messiah and NOW you tell us??  :razz:
You think people were pissed when Swami bailed on his spirituality classes, imagine what THOSE people must have gone through!

I agree with some of what he said, but he really shouldn't have been such a damn tease! I have read other writings of his, and I've just never been that impressed with the man. His lectures were often confused, rambling affairs with surprisingly irritable responses to audience questions. I finished the book just feeling sorry for the man. I don't know why he continued to allow people to flock around him, even years later, when he clearly hated it so much. It seems like he wanted all the benefits of being thought of as a guru without the responsiblity.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: Truth is a pathless land [Re: Jellric]
    #2125334 - 11/20/03 04:46 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

What those people felt was shock, and that's the best possible thing they could of fel, because you can only change yourself when something or someone shocks your beliefs. Some took his advice, others, went on to other sects and religions not wanting to understand what he was saying. Also, he was still very a young man when he announced this (early 20's or so). It's not like he was told he would be a world teacher when he was 5. They made him the head of the Order of the Star three years prior to this speech. Three years is not a" tease".

I have read other writings of his, and I've just never been that impressed with the man.
Read any book of his and he will tell you "don't believe what I am saying, don't just listen or read my words, find out for yourself". I personally find him very inspiring. His words were like an accelerator pad to what I was already thinking and feeling before I read anything of his work.

His lectures were often confused, rambling affairs with surprisingly irritable responses to audience questions. I finished the book just feeling sorry for the man.
In his older years, he admitted he was getting irritated with many of the people who came to his talks. The same people for decades would come and listen but they never changed their ways, they never actually heard what he was saying. I would get annoyed as well.

I don't know why he continued to allow people to flock around him
Maybe one or two people in the flock would really listen, and that was enough for him.

If you dug that article, I suggest you pick up Total Freedom, very worthwhile book.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Truth is a pathless land [Re: Jellric]
    #2125385 - 11/20/03 05:11 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

I loved the read. Hell, maybe the idea of getting an organization built up like that was a good idea after all. It allowed him to be in a position to say something like that.

So, what happened to that guy afterwards, by the way? Anyone know?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
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Re: Truth is a pathless land [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2125977 - 11/20/03 09:50 PM (13 years, 16 days ago)

Hell, maybe the idea of getting an organization built up like that was a good idea after all. It allowed him to be in a position to say something like that

Put yourself in the place of one who had devoted several years of his life contributing to this organization.. After he pulled the rug out from under you, can you honestly say you would just smile and say, "Oh..I see what he was doing!.. He committed this fraud to teach me a lesson."?

Btw, welcome back from your hiatus. What was that, one day?  :lol:


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
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Re: Truth is a pathless land [Re: chodamunky]
    #2126010 - 11/20/03 10:05 PM (13 years, 16 days ago)

Three years is not a" tease".

If someone of the opposite sex who you were attracted to, allowed you to think you had a chance with them for THREE years, you would honestly not consider that a tease?? Maybe we should take a poll on this one.

..he admitted he was getting irritated with many of the people who came to his talks.

Is it a sign of enlightenment to often show common irritation at those who have come to learn from you? If the student fails to learn, who bears ultimate responsibility..the teacher or student?

Maybe one or two people in the flock would really listen, and that was enough for him.

Ah, but what about the three or four who were turned off on spirituality from their contact with this man?


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Truth is a pathless land [Re: Jellric]
    #2126108 - 11/20/03 10:47 PM (13 years, 16 days ago)

He definitely makes a point though.

He realized that action was of the prime importance.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: Truth is a pathless land [Re: Jellric]
    #2126237 - 11/20/03 11:46 PM (13 years, 16 days ago)

If someone of the opposite sex who you were attracted to, allowed you to think you had a chance with them for THREE years, you would honestly not consider that a tease??
You make it seem like he wanted to screw with these people's minds. What do u suggest he did? Keep pretending to be what he knows is not right for him so the followers stay nice and comfortable? So he took three years to make up his mind, BIG DEAL. Those who didn't agree with went on to other organizations and beliefs anyway.


Is it a sign of enlightenment to often show common irritation at those who have come to learn from you? If the student fails to learn, who bears more responsibility..the teacher or student?

He never claimed he was enlightened or a spiritual leader, he denied any authority proposed to him. All he asked of his listeners is to think about what he was saying but very few people really listen. This part of the discussion I think is done through.

Ah, but what about the three or four who were turned off on spirituality from their contact with this man?

You are starting to make me believe you have read his works like a comic book.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Truth is a pathless land [Re: chodamunky]
    #2126251 - 11/20/03 11:52 PM (13 years, 16 days ago)

You make it seem like he wanted to screw with these people's minds.

I can't believe anyone would do such a thing.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Truth is a pathless land [Re: chodamunky]
    #2126262 - 11/20/03 11:54 PM (13 years, 16 days ago)

I admit I didn't read the whole thing but to me it sounds like he is saying that truth is dynamic and changing. An organised path set in stone will not be able to change with it. The path must be dynamic as truth is. And organized path can not be dynamic. A personal path on the other hand can be. I believe there are many paths to truth. As many paths as there are people. I totaly agree that true seekers can't find truth through organized paths but through themselves.

Some people just need a peice of truth or percieved truth to hold on to. i know one guy who was 5 min from suicide when he "found" god. For all their bads they do serve some useful purpose. Some people just want a grain to cling to as they trudge through their meaningless lives.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


Edited by mntlfngrs (11/20/03 11:56 PM)


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
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Re: Truth is a pathless land [Re: chodamunky]
    #2126349 - 11/21/03 12:23 AM (13 years, 16 days ago)

You are starting to make me believe you have read his works like a comic book.

No, I read his books very carefully and thoughfully considered what he had to say. I just personally found it to be common fare. I think the published transcripts of his lectures suffered greatly in comparison to his prose.

But the bottom line is: if you got something out of it, then good for you. :smile:
Truth is where you find it.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Truth is a pathless land [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2126377 - 11/21/03 12:32 AM (13 years, 16 days ago)

I say to learn from all the religions, broaden your horizens, let go of your set moral and look for wisdom. Wisdom gained from learning and reading into the many aspects of spirituality, including all the many mega groups religions, including ones from thousands of years ago. Things can be learned from the ancient druids at stonehenge to modern christianity and everything in between, buddishm, muslim, hinduism, psi, why limit yourself to one way. Learn and move on as you gain knowledge and insight into spiritual matters.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Truth is a pathless land [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2126395 - 11/21/03 12:39 AM (13 years, 16 days ago)

Truth emcompasses everything so all pathes are part of truth. It is the only way it can be.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Truth is a pathless land [Re: Jellric]
    #2127258 - 11/21/03 01:37 PM (13 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Jellric said:
Put yourself in the place of one who had devoted several years of his life contributing to this organization.. After he pulled the rug out from under you, can you honestly say you would just smile and say, "Oh..I see what he was doing!.. He committed this fraud to teach me a lesson."?




Well, if I was in a group for the sole purpose of receiving the message of this one guy, and he told us why we need to disband, I would be happy with it because that is what he told me to do. :grin:

Quote:


Btw, welcome back from your hiatus. What was that, one day?  :lol:




A little less than a week. I was on here almost every day, either reading or just looking at the titles of the posts. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Truth is a pathless land [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2128056 - 11/21/03 07:57 PM (13 years, 16 days ago)

truth is a cobweb forest, leading you to....NOWHERE.

and on the topic of krishnamurti, he founded some schools in rural India that were really awesome. He thought that any form of rote learning was completely ineffective in the development of intellect, so, instead of simply teaching kids the alphabet, children were given rubbery letters to play with so they would first internalize the form subconsciously. And he did a bunch of other cool shit, school-in-a-box, etc,


Edited by Mixomatosis (11/21/03 08:00 PM)


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