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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Unconditional Love vs Competition [Re: Ravus]
    #4660395 - 09/14/05 04:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

LOL

There are more than two choices, you know.  :wink:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Unconditional Love vs Competition [Re: Swami]
    #4660400 - 09/14/05 04:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
While competition is an aspect of life, humans also survive because of co-operation.

Cooperation is a form of group competition or tribalism or team. Ancient man thinks, "I cannot possibly bring down that mastodon by myself, but if 20 of us try it, then we have a chance." OR "As a loner, I am in grave danger from the Maboora tribe, but if I band together with siblings and cousins and second cousins, I will be safer."

All you have down is enlarged the size of the set of competitors.




And what about the tribes that decides to smoke the peace pipe, rather than go to war over territory, taking less then they optimally can use, sharing space? Or a mother sharing food with her baby durning scarcity, or someone adopting a battered child, or injured animal and spending their survival money to nurture it?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Unconditional Love vs Competition [Re: Icelander]
    #4660468 - 09/14/05 04:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

And what about the tribes that decides to smoke the peace pipe, rather than go to war over territory

My tribe bands together with yours so that now our collective protects us from smaller raiding tribes. ALL treaties are made out of SELF INTEREST.

Now you have enlarged the group from a tribe to a nation. Same rules apply.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Unconditional Love vs Competition [Re: Swami]
    #4660479 - 09/14/05 04:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You have not answered the rest of my "simple questions".


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Unconditional Love vs Competition [Re: Icelander]
    #4660534 - 09/14/05 04:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

All of those examples are either Darwinism developed to continue the human race (and therefore continue competition with other life; continuation of the species is the precursor to expansion of the species, which is of course mostly competition) or human twistings of Darwinism.

Two people need to love each other to have a child, which then continues the species, as those who did not love were less likely to have a child and therefore died off. Mothers who did not feed their children during any period of time were less likely to pass on their genes, and therefore mothers who are altruistic with their children had their children survive and pass on the "altruistic" genes. It's an extreme simplification to say all life can be reduced to competition, but to say it can be reduced to Darwinism explains it all. Love comes from continuation, competition comes from expansion; those who expand will be more likely to pass on their genes in new territories, after all, and will eventually expand back to the old. But continuation comes first naturally, as those who value competition too much will also die off by killing off themselves and their children. Over billions of years, a balance has been reached between the two, creating current humans (and all other life).

As for the tribes that share peace pipes, we can easily see those mutations have mostly died off among "tribes" nowadays.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Unconditional Love vs Competition [Re: Ravus]
    #4660550 - 09/14/05 04:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

And my post was about those who don't see or cannot utilize the benefits of love when appropriate.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Unconditional Love vs Competition [Re: Ravus]
    #4660568 - 09/14/05 04:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Two people need to love each other to have a child, which then continues the species, as those who did not love were less likely to have a child and therefore died off.




Nope, sorry, insemination does not require love. Since sex is a basic human drive, those who do not love are just as likely to inseminate as those who do.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Unconditional Love vs Competition [Re: Veritas]
    #4660615 - 09/14/05 04:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

There are two couples living in the wild.

One simply follows their basic sexual drive. The guy fucks the woman, stays with her to continue fucking her, and then notices she's blowing up like a balloon. "Whoa! She's completely ugly now!" he thinks to himself, and leaves, as all he wanted was temporary sexual gratification. The kid is born to the mother, who has a hard time supporting both her and the kid on her own, and the child has a great potential of starving to death if anything goes even moderately wrong. The mother is stressed out and depressed because of the situation.

The other couple first notices each other because of sexual attraction, but as they stay together they notice they begin to love each other. Every time they go away from each other, they just want to back with the person they love. They fuck just as the first couple did, but when the woman begins to blow up with a fetus inside, the man still loves her despite it all, and stays with her until the child is born. The two develop a loving, stable relationship, and both work to help themselves and the child survive because of their love. Love transcends simple sexual gratification for them, and it creates a stable bond conducive for the up-bringing of a healthy child.

Who is more likely to pass on their genes?


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Unconditional Love vs Competition [Re: Icelander]
    #4660640 - 09/14/05 05:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I have to acknowledge that competition is human nature, and that it is a driving force in our advancement as a species. Competition need not be a bitter dog eat dog experience. When I was in college my friends and I would put ourselves into a gentle and subtle competition with each other to see who could pull the best grades. No matter who won (me usually...I know...I am too self oriented to not say it)we remained friends. We all made excellent grades and kept each other on our toes. I have no love of harsh, bitter competition, but if it meant my or my familly's survival I would engage in it. In most things competition can be a pleasant learning experience if one keeps things in perspective. Even cooperation can be enhanced with gentle competition. In any case, to totally renounce it is fruitless as we all engage in it to varying extents. I see it here among the enlightened and egoless all of the time.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Unconditional Love vs Competition [Re: Icelander]
    #4660667 - 09/14/05 05:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Asking "what about" is not a simple and direct question, now is it? It requires an essay as a response.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Unconditional Love vs Competition [Re: Ravus]
    #4660670 - 09/14/05 05:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That is not what you said in your original post.

Of course co-operation enhances survival...that's a no-brainer. But there is no need to feel love in order to create a child.

In the scenarios you describe, the single mother and her child will be more vulnerable, but the child will not necessarily die. If they belong to a tribe, as many humans in "the wild" did, the tribe would be likely to share responsibility for the welfare of mother and child.

Since humans are helpless and vulnerable for many years, unlike most wild animals, they need the protection and support of adult humans. This support may be out of love, duty, communal agreement, pride, shame, or any number of other internal motivators.

IMO it is far too simplistic to say that love exists because it helps make and raise babies.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Unconditional Love vs Competition [Re: Swami]
    #4660751 - 09/14/05 05:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Asking "what about" is not a simple and direct question, now is it? It requires an essay as a response.




I didn't know that. Seems simple to me. Sorry. Take all the time you need.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Unconditional Love vs Competition [Re: Veritas]
    #4660769 - 09/14/05 05:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

IMO it is far too simplistic to say that love exists because it helps make and raise babies.

Veritas just left the fluffy side. :eek: :grin:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Unconditional Love vs Competition [Re: Swami]
    #4660828 - 09/14/05 05:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No, I'm still fluffy. Remember, my "best guess" is that Love exists because it is the Life force.

To say that it is merely a selected trait is to equate it with opposable thumbs or the physical ability to make sounds.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Unconditional Love vs Competition [Re: Swami]
    #4661281 - 09/14/05 07:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

My tribe bands together with yours so that now our collective protects us from smaller raiding tribes. ALL treaties are made out of SELF INTEREST.




not true. sometimes treaties are made out of stupidity!


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineVarthDader
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Re: Unconditional Love vs Competition [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4663611 - 09/15/05 03:33 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

My tribe bands together with yours so that now our collective protects us from smaller raiding tribes. ALL treaties are made out of SELF INTEREST

Yes, all treaties are made out of self interest. - untill one isn?t?

!?!


I sometimes make treaties not out of self interest

Why don?t you?

Is it because you are the kind of human who can only "see what everyone else does" and then imitate them?

Must get quite boring in the long run I imagine (?)


Edited by VarthDader (09/15/05 05:26 PM)


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Unconditional Love vs Competition [Re: VarthDader]
    #4669465 - 09/16/05 01:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I sometimes make treaties not out of self interest




i'm not sure what you have in mind. can you give an example of some motivations for a treaty besides self-interest?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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