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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Other Side of the Skeptics Coin and striving for balance
    #3022679 - 08/19/04 11:53 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I was thinking about all of the skeptism disscusions here. I am an idealist and optimist for the most part and am coming to learn here that there is nagative skeptism and positive skeptism.

Kaio said swami said there is a skeptic in all of us. I thought about that. I realised how opposite I am from a traditional negative skeptic and wanted to share the other side of the coin for consideration.

The beliefs of others I tend to want to move in on in a "helping manor" are the ones that promote and produce fear, lack and inequities. I want to bust those wide open with more information for one to consider that can bring about a greater sense of security, abundance of options and equity.

They say, what we fear is the unknown. The way I see it, if you expand your beleif perameters of what is known (provable or not)you have less to fear. This has been my experience. Knowing stuff is what gives you greater levels of understanding, compansion and empowerment. It feels GOOD to live in understanding of things, being able to feel for others as yourself and being empowered over the things that go bump in the night. I want to feel good, always!

On the flip side, I can tend to go boundaryless and then loose a sense of grounding and can be left with nothing to lean on when I need to.

To see people in fear or ignorance to me is seeing someone sitting in the dark. I like to walk in and turn the light on if I can and remove the fear and show them what they are ignoring is nothing to be afraid of either.


Let's face it, there are a lot of wild beleifs out there and most that get scrutinized here are not hurting anyone. In fact, they are typically presented in a state of joy and enthusiasm. What "some" skeptic types do here is move in on someone who is sitting in a rainbow light filled room full of hope and joy and they dim the lights on them. There seems to be a tendancy to want to take someones expansive views and reduce them down to anothers small size. I didn't see any value offered to the person this is done to, only to the person doing it because misery loves company and they increase the the span of the misery pool in the world. Thats how I was seeing it and I am sure many others do to and thats why a lot are coming down on the negative type skeptics. (You are redeemed up ahead)

What I would love to see more of here, is the type of skeptism that busts open small thinking beleifs and expands upon them and adds to them for the purpose of removing fears and ignorance. What a number of skeptics here are doing is adding their own fears and ignorance to other peoples beleifs systems and they don't see that. This is the same as what some positive skeptics are doing by offering up pie in the sky that is useless because it can't be eaten by the one who can not reach the sky.

In other words, a lot of this skeptism stuff going on here runs in the negatives, because it only serves to take away from others. You can be a skeptic of beleifs that do not serve people, that put them in fear and ignorance and bust them open and then you will truly be of service to someone as you will be adding positives to the negatives to bring about balance. Being balanced out feels really good. And some positive skeptics are giving "helpful ideas" that unfortunately are useless because the concepts are to out of reach for others to grasp. They don't see this either and I lump myself in that group and I am seeing it now.

I know the negative type of skeptic thinks they are adding negatives to the overly positive beleiving they are balancing them out. That use to sound fucked up to me and today, it makes sense because balance is the goal. I can honestly say now that i can see the virtue in it. I understand the negative skeptic side of the coin and now have a better appreciation for it.

A lot of us who run in the positives and enetertain a lot of lofty ideals, and beautiful sounding concepts are seen as useless and airy fairy to those who can't grasp them and we can do a better job of bringing them down into a more tangible manor and make them useful, we can do a lot to bridge the gaps ourselves here if we want more construction and production on this board.

It is my hope and intent that negative type skeptics can better understand the positive and realise , they have a purpose and role to for keeping things in balance when the negatives start to take over.

I tend to run imbalanced on the positive side and i think thats why I like it here. My goal is balance and to be able to have my feet firmly rooted in the earth while I ALSO can reach my hands up to the stars and have a heart that feels only unconditional love, understanding and acceptance for all of existance.

I hope this posts serves to bridge a better understanding between the two and on a wing with a prayer in the gutter with no hope this group can find itself in the betwix and the blur of the spinning coin that because a sphere of balanced wholeness and has no identifable sides.

Being in that place is the place to be! Thanks for listening!


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Other Side of the Skeptics Coin and striving for balance [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3023093 - 08/19/04 01:36 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Wanted to bump this as it may clear up a misunderstanding of my use of the phrase 'shut ins" in the consciousness explorers post.

Let me say again, just bridging mutual understanding and appreciation for the two sides of the coin.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Re: Other Side of the Skeptics Coin and striving for balance [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3025494 - 08/19/04 09:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I get what you are saying...

I would name it "Constructive Skeptisism",that is optimistic postive skeptisism...

Yet,i havent mastered it...My version of skeptisism is not negative all together althout it might have negative and cynical outbursts.I guess i can do better than that ,if not i can alwasy die trying...(Noone escaped from death,at least trying to do something nice till your deathbead time is unique)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Other Side of the Skeptics Coin and striving for balance [Re: Psiloman]
    #3025828 - 08/19/04 11:04 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm constructive skeptism may get blurry for some. What I see and am talking about is skeptism that adds to an idea and expands upon offering more choices for consideration versus the kind that takes away from and idea and reduces it to almost nothing, leaving the person feeling violated robbed and at a loss.

With the word constructive used, it's easy for the mind to beleive it is helping someone to construct a better way by taking away from them something they judge to be bad or wrong for them. See where it can back slide?

On another board I started a post on the idea of constructive criticism and asked if there really was such a thing. The consenus by all involved at the end who it explored it forward and backward and up and down was NO there is no such thing as constructive criticism.  People just use the word constructive to make the criticism acceptable but its still critisism.

Food for thought! Your spirit to understand yourself and explore many views is commendable. :thumbup: :wink:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Other Side of the Skeptics Coin and striving for balance [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3025873 - 08/19/04 11:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Many positively intentioned beliefs, when allowed to run wild, can quickly turn dark and scary with some people. The doomsday cults Swami talks about are this way. They start off with light and rainbows, but end with despair. Beliefs should always be questioned on their veracity and relevance.


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Re: Other Side of the Skeptics Coin and striving for balance [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3025904 - 08/19/04 11:21 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Isn't it up to the one doing the beliving to do the questioning?

Please note that I did focus on the overall goal being to strive for balance. I don't think being over polarized to the right light end of the scale is any better or healthier then it is to be in the neagtive darks. I think it's important for an individual to keep both in mind and play to maintain a sense of balance.

I can see the value to adding positives to someone unbalanced in the negatives and I can see the value to pointing out the nagatives to someone who is imbalanced in the positives.

Now if someone has done their own discerning weighing both ends of the scale out and makes their own choice then.......it is theirs to make and I think we would all ultimately like to have our choices respected in the end and be free to make them without being made to feel foolish either way.

I am agreeing with you!


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Re: Other Side of the Skeptics Coin and striving for balance [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3026623 - 08/20/04 01:59 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Relying on something you believe is true without any proof or solid reasoning is like walking up a ladder in the dark. You really never know if that step is there, or not.

Some people think it's a good idea to remind others to watch where they step, and not try to rush ahead with their eyes shut. As I have never been a supporter of broken noses, I tend to agree.


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Re: Other Side of the Skeptics Coin and striving for balance [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3026674 - 08/20/04 02:09 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Your stance of balance holds throughout much of life, but not when it comes to facts. Facts are polarized. Telekinesis (for example) either exists or it does not - it is not a personal preference.


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Re: Other Side of the Skeptics Coin and striving for balance [Re: Swami]
    #3027540 - 08/20/04 09:54 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

" Relying on something you believe is true without any proof or solid reasoning is like walking up a ladder in the dark. You really never know if that step is there, or not."


Reminds me of tomorrow.. and yesterday?

i think skepticism should be brutally cold and unyeilding. mm, skepticism.
obviously, it forms an almost polar opposite to the warm "sure bears can fly" sort of (drug0induced?) "belief" system..

and of course, bears /can/ fly. just not now (unless powered by machination of man). Anything is possible. Just not now. Not yet. We're not there. Etc.



note: drugs can be good. however, the irrational is only delusory. if you walk down the street thinking it's your hallway, you will not end up in your bathroom.


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Re: Other Side of the Skeptics Coin and striving for balance [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3027862 - 08/20/04 11:20 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Mush Monkey,

I appreciate your point about reminding people to watch where they step. Sounds like a thoughtful thing to do.

However, if the skeptic is doing the reminding to someone who treads slowly and cautiously well they just become an annoying irritant to the person. My mom is constantly over cautious with my daughter and it makes her look like she is a paranoid nervous wreck always focusing on the negative of what "could happen". If she were to spend to much time with my daughter drilling her with her incessant over cautioning, she may make my daughter a paranoid nervous wreck and my daughter may end up hurting herself as a result of putting all of her attention on fearing it. Fear will cause your worst fears to happen is often the case!

Does a winning olympiad and their coach freak out over tripping on ever hurdle before a race to the point they become to afraid and discouraged to run it or do they focus on clearing all of them smoothly and profficiently? Extreme negative skeptism can  run the globe into paralysis. The world needs the beleivers and risk takers if we are to accomplish new territory and it needs a healthy balance of the two. Yes, sometimes people fuck up and die, some times they don't and they open us up to knew possibilities of what human potential can achieve.


Now, if someone is extremeley careless and someone else gives them the occasional reminder to be careful and cautious then, they would be of valued and appreciated service to the other person. On the flip side here, just because one person is careless doesn't mean everyone is.

In some cases, I think some skeptic types are just transfering their fears unto others because bad things happened to them and they "say" they don't want bad things to happen to others, but really, I think they use it as an opportunity to rehash the bad things that happened to them to draw attention to what they havn't made peace with yet or overcome.

I agree with what you said in that it is grey area to me like I explained and not black OR white.

I appreciate your comment here! :thumbup:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (08/20/04 12:13 PM)


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Re: Other Side of the Skeptics Coin and striving for balance [Re: Swami]
    #3027985 - 08/20/04 11:59 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Swami,

*smiles* If you didn't show some softness and humor now and again I would ask you to remove the stick from your but!  :hug:

I am going to have to "almost" completely disagree with you on that. I am not saying you are wrong, you live in a world of science fact. This provides a tremendous amount of stability, strength and peace of mind for you. Anything that gives someone that gets Kudos from me and it is therefor RIGHT for YOU.

Lets go a bit back in time. The world is flat right? If you sailed away, you would fall off of it right? This was well known fact of life. All the freakin time, the actually fact remained, that the world was round, but those who did not explore had no way of discovering the truth beyond the truth. Someone did and many called him crazy and told him he was going to fall off of the earth. Did he? Not everyone you caution is about to sail off of a flat earth. Some are about to make a new discovery, that is if you don't instill enough fear of foolishness in them to keep them from doing that.

Now lets say someone who was told the world was flat, moved into the hills and cut off contact with the progressive world. While others were catching wind and word that the world was discovered to be round by a courageous explorer he was still living in his blissful ignorance on a flat world. This took place only in his mind because all the while, the world was actually round.

Some of us here don't want to be that guy. Some of us here relate to the sense of exploration and adventure that columbus had. We are willing to risk falling off of a flat earth to make a new discovery. But it's really not about the new discovery, it's about the adventure in the journey while doing so.

Regarding your telekenisis statement about it being doable or not has no relavance to this topic. Your type of skeptism just makes you the guy who says, I will beleive the world is round when I see un doctered photos of it from outter space or sail around it for myself or video photage of the circumnavigation.

This topic was about extremists wo had quickly and carelessly rush into the deep end without a life vest and no ability to swim and some one giving them fair cautionary warning before they sink and drown versus someone approaching a proffesional swimmer with paranoid fear filled ideas that they will drown in the deep end.

The fact that one can swim profficiently and one cannot IS vital here. Facts are important when making decisions to intervene or not and I agree with that. In this sense, I understand your point.

Things fall out of judicious balance when people are not aware of what really is fact or not and run in to intervene with negative skeptism.

Can you see where I am coming from? Commonly known facts may indeed be science fiction like the flat world- you don't know some times and you don't even know that you don't know that YOU may be in the world of science fiction and another is in the world of science fact.

No rights or wrong here, just some thought provoking discussion and I am glad that you helped me to see where facts can have bearing applying skeptism like in the example of the swimmers. :thumbup:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Other Side of the Skeptics Coin and striving for balance [Re: fredthetree]
    #3027996 - 08/20/04 12:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Fred,

Bears flying and cold hard skeptism make for balance when combined. I think you got it! If someone were to pick up my pet bear cub and take it to a cliff wanting to throw it off because they beleived it could fly i would give them some cold hard sketism up the bum too! Extremes require polar extremes to maintain safe balance! :thumbup:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Other Side of the Skeptics Coin and striving for balance [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3028136 - 08/20/04 12:41 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The world needs the beleivers and risk takers...

This is a semantic trick favored by politicians; the linking of two disparate entities. Why not say "The world needs the skeptics and risk-takers..."

This is no different than the bumper stickers that read, "Just say No to drugs and violence," as if they are directly related.

Bzzzzzzt! You just lost 100 credibility points.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Re: Other Side of the Skeptics Coin and striving for balance [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3028146 - 08/20/04 12:44 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

*smiles* If you didn't show some softness and humor now and again I would ask you to remove the stick from your but!

This is an ad hominem and does nothing to further discussion no matter how many smiley faces you add.


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Re: Other Side of the Skeptics Coin and striving for balance [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3028422 - 08/20/04 02:13 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I am a skeptic, maybe even a "negative skeptic" because I want the truth, the full truth, and nothing but the truth, and if I have reason to doubt something, why should I not doubt it?


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Re: Other Side of the Skeptics Coin and striving for balance [Re: Swami]
    #3028709 - 08/20/04 03:51 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Fortunately, my life is not dependant upon credit from you swami. It's only dependant upon the credit I give to myself and I give myself more then I know what to do with. Debit denied! :rotfl:

You showwed a perfect example of what I was talking about. Thank you for demonstrating how a negative skeptic can make an attempt at a take away (taking away any credit you gave me) you really only took it away from your own bank of resources- not mine. However, you did offer an "add on  replacement" to  a critism when you suggested that I re-paraphrase to say that the world needs skeptics and risk takers. I agree, that statement is the balanced one. Your add on with new options correcting is greatfully accepted. The next time you come after a risk taker, I will remind you of it.

The use of ad hominems in discussions are not restricted here. I am free to use them. Forgive me for using them as smiles and such are what separate me from the machines.

I find it quite interesting when people feel personally threatened by material and instinctly move to attack, only they can't attack the subject matter so they attack things like peoples spelling, grammer, or form of self expression.

It's obvious and funny to the reader and a dead give away that an explosive button was pushed. At least it showed your primal animalistic nature. Swamis got one!

Ferago2,

You are free to doubt whatever you want to and doubting can sometimes spare you from being caught up in a suckers trap and sometimes it can keep you from fullfillment. Take the guy who doubts anybody could ever love him may just resort to the life of a hermit never knowing because he didn't take a chance or a risk or the leap of faith.  This post was about using skpetical doubt with judicious balance. I'm not sure if enough skeptics ask themselves, when the skeptism is serving them in their best interests and when its not. Thats for you decide. This post was meant to offer up further considerations about skeptism.

I can only hope that some readers of this thread are now seeing it from many new perspectives that will serve them better in the future.
I know I broadened my understanding by working my way through it.

Thanks to everyone who participated in it.  :thumbup:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Other Side of the Skeptics Coin and striving for balance [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3030111 - 08/20/04 10:09 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The use of ad hominems in discussions are not restricted here. I am free to use them.
Wrongo! They not only have no place in a discussion of philosophy (as it has nothing to do with the subject), but is also against S&P communal rules which you agree to accept by posting here.

I find it quite interesting when people feel personally threatened by material and instinctly move to attack, only they can't attack the subject matter so they attack things like peoples spelling, grammer, or form of self expression.
Uh huh. Is that why you attacked? (IRONY OVERLOAD!)

It's obvious and funny to the reader and a dead give away that an explosive button was pushed.
No button was pushed as there is no emotion in my reply. You simply showed bad form. Accept the correction and move on.


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Re: Other Side of the Skeptics Coin and striving for balance [Re: Swami]
    #3030676 - 08/21/04 12:54 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

  :popcorn:


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Re: Other Side of the Skeptics Coin and striving for balance [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3031772 - 08/21/04 08:59 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

skeptics vs believers, risktakers vs 'fundamented' ? These are very contextual and relative terms.

btw. skeptics surely are believers as well, they only 'sharpen' their beliefes more often :wink:

If every believer could be sceptic, I can't say. Seemes not, and if, they use their scepticism in a one way. (Sometimes I believe swami falls in this category)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Other Side of the Skeptics Coin and striving for balance [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #3031796 - 08/21/04 09:29 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

there are few people that say that "new agers" and "spiritual beings" are ignorant and such.

the way i veiw ingnorance is people that are quick to critize all beleifs that is not of their own. not willing to take time to put the energy or effort to let go of their intelluctual side and to view there is a possiblity in what is being said, and to try and experience for themselves.

its not like reading a book and get what is being said in that instance it takes alot of time and pateince to practice these so called spiritual processes.

if these so called skeptics use the energy and effort that they use in critizism into trying to understand for themselves what spirituality is about, maybe they'll find a way to express their feelings and beleifs in a way that everybody understands.

i can answer why that there has been no evidence of most of "spiritual feats" is because they happen spontaneous and not at will they are mearly party tricks or for show of the mind and is not apart of true spiritual living.

this is just my perspective
if i offended anybody i am sorry
i am open to the possiblity that i am wrong
but try to convince me that i am wrong is going to be like hittng your head on a brick wall
UNPRODUCTIVE


Edited by spudamore (08/21/04 09:31 AM)


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