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OfflinePhluck
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Skepticism
    #2238629 - 01/13/04 10:24 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I posted this in another thread, but then the thread seemed to start fading away. It was in response to more accusations of skeptics being "closed minded" :rolleyes:.

Here:

Just because someone is skeptical does not mean they are closed minded. It means they are thinking critically. When they see someone claiming to do something fantastical, instead of just blindly swallowing whatever explanation they are given, they carefully consider it, and wonder if perhaps the reality is something else.

Scenario:

You put out a saucer of milk, and go to sleep. When you come down in the morning, the milk is gone.

What happened?

a) Your cat drank it.
b) The milk faeries took it.

Since we know for certain that the cat exists, and likes drinking milk, we can be sure that this is a valid possibility. We aren't sure if the milk faeries exist, in fact they were created in our minds for the purposes of an explanation.

Does this mean for certain that the cat drank it? No, it actually could have been the milk faeries, but the most likely explanation is that the cat drank it. Maybe neither explanation is correct. We can't tell for certain, but we can come up with possibilities, and we can deduce which are more likely than others.

For instance, we know illusionists and magicians exist, and they have the ability to create astonishing tricks and illusions, without using mystical or paranormal powers.

Someone places their hands in front of a ball, and it seems to levitate from the ground for a moment, and then fall back down. They claim they used telekinesis to do this.

We know that these tricks can be done using techniques any illusionist is familiar with, and we also know that these things have never been replicated in a controlled lab setting as part of a well laid out experiment. Knowing this, is it more likely that:

a) Telekinesis was actually used.
or
b) This was all an illusion.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Anonymous

Re: Skepticism [Re: Phluck]
    #2238649 - 01/13/04 10:35 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Just because someone is skeptical does not mean they are closed minded.

True, but it certainly can mean that.  The exclusion of telelogy from the scientific method is another example of delimiting a response in order to foment a particular ideological agenda.

Common sense, isn't it?  :rolleyes:


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Skepticism [Re: Phluck]
    #2238656 - 01/13/04 10:42 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Scenario:

As a farmer, you herd your cattle into a new acre of fresh grass, and head back to your farmer-home...

The next morning, you find several cows, completely mutilated. Eyes missing, surgical-precision cuts in specific locations revealing specific missing organs. Further forensic analysis reveals that the cuts were obviously not done by just any regular ol' knife, tool or whatever--they conclude that only the most advanced laser-technology could have created such an incision.

What happened?

A) Some really twisted wacked out bizzarre psycho with a PhD and all the know-how on surgical laser tools and an odd appettite for Cow's eyeballs and internal organs came and fucked y0 cow up, nigga. No more Elsie.
B) A military experiment on super-advanced weapons conducted on random cows, and just mutilated the shit outta it so they can be sure it'll have the same effect on them towel-heads down in Iraq and Afghanistan and stuff.
C) Alien-UFO engineered some bizzarre experiment that nobody from this planet (except maybe Shroomism) will understand.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Skepticism [Re: ]
    #2238685 - 01/13/04 10:56 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

"The exclusion of telelogy from the scientific method"

The scientific method is a method of testing ideas, and telelogy is a theory. I don't see what you mean when you say that it is excluded from the scientific method. If you can think of a way to test for concious design, go for it. It has nothing to do with people trying to push a certain agenda, it's just not something that can be tested, only speculated on.

Anyhoo... telology doesn't have any other basis than a bunch of people who have the feeling that there would have to have been intelligent design. Sounds kind of arrogant to think that the universe couldn't have been created without some kind of conciousness (something like us!) to do it.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Skepticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2238706 - 01/13/04 11:07 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

"A) Some really twisted wacked out bizzarre psycho with a PhD and all the know-how on surgical laser tools and an odd appettite for Cow's eyeballs and internal organs came and fucked y0 cow up, nigga. No more Elsie.
B) A military experiment on super-advanced weapons conducted on random cows, and just mutilated the shit outta it so they can be sure it'll have the same effect on them towel-heads down in Iraq and Afghanistan and stuff.
C) Alien-UFO engineered some bizzarre experiment that nobody from this planet (except maybe Shroomism) will understand. "

D) The guy who inspected the cow was a UFOlogist, and because of the fact he knows nothing about cow anatomy, or what different kinds of incisions look like, he thought that perfectly normal bite marks from coyotes were surgical laser incisions. I wouldn't be saying this is UFOlogists weren't constantly claiming some piece of metal or rock contains "amazing new properties" and "couldn't possibly have come from earth" and then a scientist looks at it and goes "it's a piece of tinfoil."

Either way, the alien possibility is probably the least likely. We don't know if aliens exist, have lasers, whatever, in order to link them with this you'd have to make a huge leap. As for the first possibility, he wouldn't need a PhD for any of that, but we know for a fact whacked out psychos exist in all walks of life.

I think the government can afford their own cows. The scientist one is the most likely, but none of those possibilities are really good.

maybe...

E) It's a hoax.

I mean, that happens ALL the time, so it's certainly likely. More likely than aliens or rogue scientists or top secret government experiments.

The three possibilities you offered are a classic example of using Occam's Spoon. The most fantastical and exciting possibility, instead of the most probable is the one taken the most seriously.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Skepticism [Re: Phluck]
    #2238781 - 01/13/04 11:52 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

The reason I brought it up was because this has actually taken place before..I've watched articles on Discovery and Unsolved Mysteries on it.

he thought that perfectly normal bite marks from coyotes were surgical laser incisions.
Farmers know what thier cows look like after it's been attacked by Coyotes, or whatever other predator. If they knew it was just another event of mother nature's food chain taking effect, they wouldn't have become so concerned enough as to alert the local authorities. Who, then, would also easily confirm that no coyote or predator other than possibly a human would come kill a cow by going up to it and somehow stunning it enough to stabilize it enough that they can then remove the eyeballs, make surgically precisive incisions on its abdomen and ONLY remove specific inner-organs, and leave the cow. That eliminates the possibility of it being a predatory animal, coyote, or whatever animal that eats Cows. Other than human, of course.
The UFOlogist would have to be INCREDIBLY STUPID to be un-able to distinguish a laser-incision and a coyote's crude chomp-mark. That's assuming that the Farmer is already so stupid AND the local authorities so stupid that they BOTH agreed to inform a "specialist" to analyze the situation, because futhermore, a UFOlogist isn't someone with any actual expertise on forensic science and forensic analyzing, Unless of course he/she is a forensic detective with a fancy for UFO's and such. But that's usually out of the ordinary. So with that in mind, the farmer and local authorities, police, etc, is most likely not going to think "Uh oh, better get a UFOlogist here".
But anyways blah blah blah, there's tons of possibilities and tons of stuff could and can happen, etc etc.
I personally don't know what to make of situations like these...the thing that gets me are the actual videos and pictures of the cows. I dont think farmer's themselves or whatever are doing that to create hoaxes--IF they are, then they are DAMN GOOD hoaxers :smirk:


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Skepticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2238788 - 01/13/04 11:57 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I'm not sure if it's possible to distinguish between a burn made by extremely high tech lasers, and a burn made by a soldering iron or even a red hot poker.

"The UFOlogist would have to be INCREDIBLY STUPID to be un-able to distinguish a laser-incision and a coyote's crude chomp-mark."

Depends. How much does he want to believe that it's a UFO?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Skepticism [Re: Phluck]
    #2238824 - 01/13/04 12:11 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

:lol:
I would just love to hear a UFOlogist try to make a Coyote's bite mark look like it was caused by Aliens who are technologically advanced enough to travel light-years across the Universe, in gravity-defying spaceships, and STILL use their teeth or whatever other uncivilized and crude methods to dissect a cow...heh.

What do you think of Crop Circles? I've seen how alot of em can easily be hoaxed, but then there are the cases where all the grass/cornstalk is burnt to a hard crisp, all on the exact same horizontal angle and level, and the soil is so ruined by radioactive levels that NOTHING will even grow there, ever.
Again, the possibilities aren't too much different from the other cow-scenario.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Skepticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2238940 - 01/13/04 12:51 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...ev=#Post1071880


There's a post I made on the topic ages ago. I've heard about the angle of the stalks thing before, and I've heard from a scientist who investigated the same site as one of the UFOlgists, and he said that he didn't see anything strange about the stalks being at such an angle, that if you were to flatten them with a board, that's what would happen.

Also, I've never heard about the ground being unusable for crops. I did hear about some strange radioactive material being found that was supposedly not of this world... but when a team of hoaxsters from england went to create a crop circle in New Zealand, they showed how spraying some chemicals on the ground could get the same results.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Skepticism [Re: Phluck]
    #2238961 - 01/13/04 12:57 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

http://www.circlemakers.org/ - The offical website of some very talented crop circle makers from England. ("Noooo, humans couldn't possible make anything that intricate!")

Oooh, look at this: http://home.xnet.com/~blatura/skep_3.html

From the sci.skeptic FAQ:

"3.7.3: Are crop circles radioactive?

This is a claim that has received wide circulation in UFO/cerealogy circles (pardon the pun). It is also untrue. Examination of the data from spectral analyses of soil taken from crop circles has shown that there were no readings above the normal background levels. The proponents of this claim are debating this, however."

Also:

"3.7.4: What about cellular changes in plants within crop circles?

Yes, what about the changes? Although this is another claim that is widely circulated among ufologists and cerealogists, the evidence is simply not very good. A few photographs of alleged changes in the "crystalline structure" of wheat stems were published in some magazines and UFO publications. The method used was spagyrical analysis. This is a technique involving crystallization of the residue of organic material after harsh processing, invented three centuries ago and popularized by Sir Kenelm Digby. Digby is known for other wonderful inventions like condensation of sunlight and the development of sword salve (which you had to put on the weapon rather than on the wound, in order to cure the wound). The fact that this technique was tried at all casts serious doubts on the "researchers" involved. "


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Skepticism [Re: Phluck]
    #2238994 - 01/13/04 01:14 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Hmm..Good job. You have earned The Skeptic of the Day Award. :thumbup:
btw,
Is there ANYTHING or ANY issue  in the world, past or present, that you'd feel less inclined to side with the skeptics on?


--------------------
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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Skepticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2239005 - 01/13/04 01:21 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quick note, I think that the crop circle makers are some of the coolest subversive artists around today. Kudos to them.
This is a really neat bit one of them wrote about creating circles: http://www.circlemakers.org/jim.html

I can't think of anything off the top of my head... oh wait.

There's an article in Scientific American, Skeptic's Corner or something, where the guy was claiming a lot of the life extension research going on today was complete baloney, but it seemed he wasn't really up to date on what was actually going on, and that he was kind of exagerrating the claims being made.

Any claims that you think skeptics have been particularly harsh towards? I'll tell you what I think about those.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Skepticism [Re: Phluck]
    #2239016 - 01/13/04 01:31 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Any claims that you think skeptics have been particularly harsh towards? I'll tell you what I think about those.

The Bermuda Triangle

Near Death Experiences

UFO Abductions

Bigfoot

Loch Ness

Psychics (John Edwards, Sylvia Browne, James Van Praagh)

The Roswell Incident


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OfflineAnarkhos
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Re: Skepticism [Re: Phluck]
    #2239022 - 01/13/04 01:36 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I've investigated skepticism, but I still have my doubts about it.


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Anonymous

Re: Skepticism [Re: Phluck]
    #2239025 - 01/13/04 01:37 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

That is a bit simplistic and incorrect.

Teleology is a philosophical doctrine that all of nature, or at least intentional agents, are goal directed or functionally organized.  It is not a theory unless you are equivocating.

You are positing a mechanistic explanation, which is in itself a philosophical doctrine.

However, all of that misses the point, doesn't it?

Are you here to convince us that skeptics are open minded?

I am very skeptical about that.  :tongue2:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Skepticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2239026 - 01/13/04 01:37 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

The UFOlogist would have to be INCREDIBLY STUPID to be un-able to distinguish a laser-incision and a coyote's crude chomp-mark.

Uhnlike The Cerealogist (unaccredited studier of crop circles) who can't tell the difference between stalks pushed down by a 2 * 4 and stalks bent by an alien force field of some sort...

You apparently don't know the difference between stupidity and ignorance. As a (self-proclaimed) UFOlogist would likely have no prior field or forensic knowledge about predator feeding habits and the wounds they leave behind; nor having had access to a high-powered laser; his erroneous conclusions might be based on ignorance rather than stupidity.

Gullibility has little to do with intelligence.


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Anonymous

Re: Skepticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2239033 - 01/13/04 01:43 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Any claims that you think skeptics have been particularly harsh towards? I'll tell you what I think about those.

The Bermuda Triangle

Near Death Experiences

UFO Abductions

Bigfoot

Loch Ness

Psychics (John Edwards, Sylvia Browne, James Van Praagh)

The Roswell Incident




Since skepticism is a mechanistic explanation of the known universe which item(s) would violate materialism?

The coelacanth was found in the 1930's after it was assumed to be extinct. What scientific principle would be violated if a plesiosaur were found today?


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Skepticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2239046 - 01/13/04 01:51 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Yow, that's quite the list.

A quick look over the NDE phenom:

?The true critical thinker accepts what few people ever accept -- that one cannot routinely trust perceptions and memories.? --James Alcock, ?The Belief Engine?

The common claim is that the Near Death Experience is proof that there is some sort of afterlife, people are declared clinically dead, and then revived, bringing back memories of the "other side". It is often said that this is proof of an afterlife, when in reality it is no such thing. All it is proof of, is that the brain can create a very bizarre experience when we are en routh to death.

The reality of the "clinically dead" in these episodes, is that they are not completely dead. Their hearts have stopped beating, they are no longer breathing, but brain functions remain active, which is why they are able to have an experience. Nobody has every had their brain completely shut down before being fully revived again.

We also know that the ND experience can be recreated with chemical manipulation of the brain. While LSD and DMT have been known to create similar effects, ketamine is the most noteworthy, causing "out of body" experiences, and the "tunnelling" effect common to NDE's. This can be brought on in doses of ketamine that are nowhere near fatal, so it cannot be argued that these people have been brought close to death by a drug overdose.

As someone with a fascination for altered states of conciousness, and a deep rooted desire to experience the surreal and bizarre, reproducing an NDE or OOB has a certain appeal to me. If I had a source for clean, pure ketamine, I'd certainly make some attempts to explore that for myself, but I see no reason to believe that this offers a hint of what the afterlife could be like, should it exist.

If you want another skeptic's take on this, go here:
http://skepdic.com/nde.html

They've done more research than me, and are much more familiar with the claims and people involved with this field than I am.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Skepticism [Re: Swami]
    #2239049 - 01/13/04 01:52 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

his erroneous conclusions might be based on ignorance rather than stupidity.

Oh, IGNORANCE, not stupidity, of course of course. How... ignorant of moi. :wink:

You win the Syntax Award of The Day! good job. :thumbup:


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Skepticism [Re: ]
    #2239084 - 01/13/04 02:05 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

"Teleology is a philosophical doctrine that all of nature, or at least intentional agents, are goal directed or functionally organized."

The idea that any part of nature is goal directed or functionally organized is a theory. It is not something that can be solidly proven, and it may or may not be true. What's the difference between that an a theory?

"Are you here to convince us that skeptics are open minded?"

I'd say that thinking critically as opposed to simply believing a fantastical idea or explanation is true would be open minded.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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