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InvisibleSclorch
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You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth...
    #3797787 - 02/18/05 09:58 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

You don't need logic to find truth... you need logic to sort out the truth from the bullshit.


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: Sclorch]
    #3797802 - 02/18/05 10:02 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

you need truth to find logic

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: fresh313]
    #3797841 - 02/18/05 10:14 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Explain.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: Sclorch]
    #3797889 - 02/18/05 10:35 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
You don't need logic to find truth... you need logic to sort out the truth from the bullshit.




:thumbup:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: fresh313]
    #3797935 - 02/18/05 10:48 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Looking at what Fresh said, it's interesting to see where logic sets itself up as truth if it is what finds it. Its like a closed system in that sense.

Have you ever tried that Diddy where you stick your right leg out sitting in a chair and move it in clockwise circle while moving your right hand in a clockwise circle and then when you switch and move your hand in a counter clock wise circle your leg automatically follows and you can't keep your leg going clockwise?

That is totally illogical yet it is the truth of what happens. It's seems logical that your hand can move one way and your leg another, but its not and its a truth you can experience for yourself and prove.

The funny thing is that if you ask someone who hasn't tried this if they can move their right arm separately from their right leg they would use logic to say yes, of course I can. Yet the experience which is repeatable and provable shows otherwise and seems quite illogical. You can do it with your left arm and leg though.

Can logic explain it???????? I don't know. My point is, not everything that seems or sounds logical is. I think thats an example of why fresh said that you need the truth to use logic. By finding the truth that this happens with the right arm and leg, you can use logic to understand why it does.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3797982 - 02/18/05 11:00 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I just did it, and I can move my right leg counter clockwise while moving my hand clockwise. Takes a little practice to get it right...but it is certainly possible.

I wouldn't say it is logical to ASSUME that you can move your leg in one direction while your hand moves in another. This is simply a coordination problem, not an illogical human ability.

I think you may be confusing intuition with logic, here. INTUITIVELY you might think that you can easily move your leg and arm in opposite circles...but LOGICALLY you must admit that this type of thing is difficult at best. Why is that logical? Well you should have previous knowledge of how difficult it is to do these kind of things. Tap your head while rubbing your stumach, for example. We've all seen that trick before, so why shouldn't it extend to an arm and a leg?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: trendal]
    #3798067 - 02/18/05 11:19 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

You said you can move your right leg clockwise while moving your right arm clockwise. yes that is easy, or was that a typo?. It's moving your right hand counter clockwise while the leg is moving clockwise that goes screwy.

I played with it using extreme focus to do it and if I move them VERY slowly I can get it going a bit, its still sloppy though.

My point Tren was that if you asked someone who never did it before hand if the could, they would say it sounds logical that they could.

Now you are talking after the fact. Next time you are hanging out with friends, ask them if they think its logical to be able to move them counter to each other at the same time and don't bring up the head tap stomach rub thing.

Give me time and I bet I can come up with other examples where you need an illogical appearing truth to begin using logic to explain it.

It makes sense to me that a provable truth has to come first before logic can then be applied to explain how it can be, not the other way around.


Early science could have said that it was illogical to defy gravity had they never seen birds or insects fly. The truth is they can. With the truth coming into play, then logic can be applied to explain how.

All fresh was saying is that logic does not bring you to a truth, it can only explain how a truth can be.

How does that not make sense? I think this just requires a shifting of perspective on it.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineRJLR
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3798151 - 02/18/05 11:38 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

That's independence for your hands and legs... ask a drums player if he can do it and he'll tell you logically yer... you can do it with practice... I taught my self to draw with both hands, which is useful when you are doing a big drawing from life, so you don't move and change the visual perspective.
- I think you practice at life experience to understand truth and logic - and some times the truth is not the logical chose
--------------------------------

Lil Jon make's me shake it YYYYYEEEERRRRRR


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3798153 - 02/18/05 11:38 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
I just did it, and I can move my right leg counter clockwise while moving my hand clockwise.




My point is that the examples you are giving for people to say something is "logical" are all examples of intuitive reasoning, NOT logical reasoning.

Intuition is an educated guess. There are no "steps" to intuition, the answer "just is".

Logic is a well-structured proceedure for reaching truth.

All fresh was saying is that logic does not bring you to a truth, it can only explain how a truth can be.

I think that logic can BOTH bring you to a truth, and then explain why the truth IS true. It is not required to reach a truth, though. Intuition can also reach the truth, but cannot explain it.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: trendal]
    #3798361 - 02/18/05 12:30 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Isn't there a problem if people are using gut feelings or past experiences to determine a truth or not and call what they are doing applying logic?

You see it here often.

I am not knocking logic, I use it a lot. I am highlighting what I think Fresh was getting it and you helped. Often what people call using logic to make themselves sound "sound" is often just them going on gut feelings and past experiences of what can or can't be true.

You need a truth to show itself first before you can begin applying logic to how it can be. An idea of what can be so qualifies for applying how to logically make it so. An idea for what can not be so can also have logic applied to it for how it can not be.

Someone good with it can take an idea and make it sound of truth or not. Lawyers do it all of the time to sway jurors. Getting to an actual truth often has nothing to do with it. You can use it to sway people from getting to the actual truth.

When people start throwing that word around, I turn my spidey senses on. How many times on Star trek did Spock say something wasn't logical yet , it was happening anyway? If someone says something isn't logical, that doesn't mean it can't be so anyway.

When I use logic, sometimes it helps me to understand how something can be and sometimes I use it as a form of deductive reasoning to talk myself out of believing in something I don't want to face or deal with.

It's not logical, rational or reasonable why I should go to Sam's party when I have so much work to do. Sorry Sam. (the truth is, Joe the leach pig will be there and I don't want to deal with him) Sam was kept from knowing the truth with my logic, he he.

However, Sam could start applying logic to understand why I can't find a way to get my work done and make the party and with it he may get to the truth.

See what I am saying how it can be used for or against getting to truth? This does not mean that everyone is a manipulator of others to see what they want them to see with it but some do. For that, I am glad Fresh brought it into attention.

How often does someone say, "Oh that's not logical" and the mere weight of that word makes everyone else say, "okay, it must not be" How many use counter logic at that point?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: Sclorch]
    #3798364 - 02/18/05 12:31 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

"You need logic to sort out the truth from the bullshit."

From what source does the "truth" come?


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Anxiety is what you make it.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3802423 - 02/19/05 02:29 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
"You need logic to sort out the truth from the bullshit."

From what source does the "truth" come?




It's just there.
Is a prime mover necessary?

Why does the universe exist?
Because it can.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: Sclorch]
    #3802843 - 02/19/05 09:23 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

You don't need logic to find truth... you need logic to sort out the truth from the bullshit.

you don't need car keys to drive a car... you need car keys to determine which car is yours.

huh?

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: Sclorch]
    #3802881 - 02/19/05 09:55 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

"It's just there. Is a prime mover necessary?"

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying truth is truth and is immutable, irrefutable, the same for you as for me as for the next person?

What I was originally trying to ask is from what source, what pool of information, where and what filter will your truth be sifted and sorted out of the "mountain of BS" of which you speak.

In other words, in your seeking of truth, do you completely discount your subconscious mind and try to analyze what your eyes have seen and your ears have heard directly through your logical mind? What is your source of information when applying your logic?


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OfflineGomp
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3802887 - 02/19/05 10:02 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

logic is so logical, is logically, unlogical..


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3806286 - 02/20/05 10:23 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
"It's just there. Is a prime mover necessary?"

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying truth is truth and is immutable, irrefutable, the same for you as for me as for the next person?



Some truths are.

Quote:

What I was originally trying to ask is from what source, what pool of information, where and what filter will your truth be sifted and sorted out of the "mountain of BS" of which you speak.



Uh... logic is the filter. It is not a source... it's merely a tool. The "pool of information" is life.

Quote:

In other words, in your seeking of truth, do you completely discount your subconscious mind and try to analyze what your eyes have seen and your ears have heard directly through your logical mind?



Nope. There's more than one item in that toolbox.

Quote:

What is your source of information when applying your logic?



Again... tool... filter... method...


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3806290 - 02/20/05 10:24 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Zekebomb said:
You don't need logic to find truth... you need logic to sort out the truth from the bullshit.

you don't need car keys to drive a car... you need car keys to determine which car is yours.

huh?




Analogies aren't always equivalent. Try again.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: Sclorch]
    #3806318 - 02/20/05 10:38 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Imagine what the world would be like if everybody were 99.99% logical at all times.

Wow!



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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3806373 - 02/20/05 10:56 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Imagine what the world would be like if everybody were 99.99% logical at all times.

Wow!





Would you really be interested in a female version of Spock? Yes, imagine a world full of Spock's. Was he even able to imagine things? People with no emotional expression, hmmmmm. After all, emotions are not logical.

Little Spock kids would be trip! Eating sugar is not logical mom. Staying up past my bed time is not logical mom. Playing in the dirt is not logical mom.

All in all I would rather hang out with Captian Kirk, life may not be as logical but it would be a lot more fun! I think the world needs a mix of Spock's and Kirks and Scotties to keep some balance and diversified interest.

Spock to Kirk, "If you are not with the inclination to procreate a human offspring, mating with the female would not be logical."


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (02/20/05 11:02 AM)

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3806406 - 02/20/05 11:06 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

As an elite Star Trek fan [read: nerd], I must point out that the Vulcans were doing pretty darn fine themselves.

Live long, and prosper... :wink:




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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3806418 - 02/20/05 11:10 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Oh, and btw..

Would you really be interested in a female version of Spock?


Oh, yes.

I would be interested in T'pol anyday:




:wink:


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3806429 - 02/20/05 11:13 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I would imagine they would fare well indeed. Being all logic, you wouldn't know what you were missing.

If I could choose between all logic, illogic or a blend of both, I would go for the blend. I would miss the creative arts and forms of expression that come from emotional inspiration, abstract thinking, and discovery, invention, creations made by mistakes.

The art in your sig is abstract and not logical. Are you sure you want a life devoid of that?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3806439 - 02/20/05 11:16 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Oh, and btw..

Would you really be interested in a female version of Spock?


Oh, yes.

I would be interested in T'pol anyday:




:wink:





Good One!


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3806566 - 02/20/05 12:09 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

You remind me of the old stance of "Open mindedness vs Logic". This is an argument that stems from a deeper root that can be referred to as: Close-mindedness, which is a form of fear.

However, I am certainly not one to dispel open mindedness, for I am too well aware that a closed mind is just like a closed book; a block of wood.
This certainly does not go against freedom or logic. In fact, it is because of my freedom and tool of logic that I was able to see, understand and make such a statement.

In theory the generalization that "Close Minded = bad" and "Open Minded = good" sounds like a logical rule of thumb, however in practice and the way it is suggested by our society open mindedness can lead to the most extreme form of close mindedness. By being open minded to everything one essentially becomes closed minded to any specific [and possibly logical] idea which excludes some other idea, regardless of whether the other idea is logical.

Jiggy, being logical is not a mode of existence, it is merely a state of mind that is appropriate in certain situations. The 'disease' only comes into play when one builds an identity around logic, which creates the potential for neurotic and compulsive use of such tools of thought. This of course gives rise to the negative stereotypes that the word logic has been burdened with.

So one can indeed be 99.99% logical, and still make creative art. Just as long as they are not trying to "be" logical while at the same time they are trying to "be" creative.

The mind is "amphibias", and it would be wise to use this advantage which means to NOT attach to any specific capability of the mind, be it open mindedness or rationality. Hence, because one is none of those in particular, one is everything, or rather...all that is left, is everything else. :wink:



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3806578 - 02/20/05 12:14 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Oh no no no its not a versus case to me at all. I am all for non polar merging and blending of complimentary contrasts living in harmony. Both are required in balance to me.

Your comment was to imagine a world of ALL logic. I did and suddenly it grew pale. A world without logical rationing would be all frivolous and that would not be satisfying or full filling either.

Captain Kirk to me is someone who represented a better balance.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3806727 - 02/20/05 01:12 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Captain Kirk to me is someone who represented a better balance.




I'm sorry... I laughed out loud at that.
I just can't imagine female version of Kirk... with his speech patterns... he does comedy so much better.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: Sclorch]
    #3806755 - 02/20/05 01:21 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Hahaha yes, that does paint a funny picture. Musssssssssssst reeesisT Saaaaaaale onnnn shoooesssss. Fiffy Perrrrrrcent oooooooff!


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (02/20/05 02:13 PM)

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3806963 - 02/20/05 02:22 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I was thinking of what famous person, real life not characters, is a good blend of logical and abstract thinking. First to come to mind were Tom Hanks as a male example and Courtney Cox as a female example.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3807147 - 02/20/05 03:07 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Hahaha yes, that does paint a funny picture. Musssssssssssst reeesisT Saaaaaaale onnnn shoooesssss. Fiffy Perrrrrrcent oooooooff!




:lol:

Spock, are you out of your Vulcan mind....? 

Captain, I am a DOCTOR, not a damn miracle worker....

Wait....    Shoes....?    :what:

>^;;^<


:heart:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: You Don't Need Logic To Find Truth... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3807601 - 02/20/05 04:43 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)


>Have you ever tried that Diddy where you stick your right leg out sitting in a chair and move it in clockwise circle while moving your right hand in a clockwise circle and then when you switch and move your hand in a counter clock wise circle your leg automatically follows and you can't keep your leg going clockwise? That is totally illogical yet it is the truth of what happens. It's seems logical that your hand can move one way and your leg another, but its not and its a truth you can experience for yourself and prove.
-It probably won't seem illogical after you've taken a psychology course. The mind has some difficulty multitasking. What would your conclusion have to be if you used the same premise, but applied it to optical illusions? Logic can't explain it... those impossible things in the picture are truth.

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