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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4764848 -

ToiletDuk said:
Yes, but you see, amongst some, the fact that we don't have Islamic law is enough to incite them. Jeeze, some of them are still pissed about the retaking of Iberia by Xians 5 centuries ago...


And since those aren't reasonable demands, we shouldn't cave into them. You're missing the point entirely. We should do what is reasonable and justified regardless of whether it is demanded or not. Reason and truth are pillars unto themselves.


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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Silversoul]
    #4764868 -

*sigh* People are hardly reasonable creatures, however much we may admire the trait. In a perfect world, it would be, but alas, this ain't no perfect world.
And really, sniping isn't going to bring me into the Libertarian camp anytime soon. I'm one of those unreasonable people, I guess...:shrug:

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4764886 -

ToiletDuk said:
And really, sniping isn't going to bring me into the Libertarian camp anytime soon. I'm one of those unreasonable people, I guess...:shrug:


Who's talking about the Libertarian camp?  No one here is arguing that we should eliminate social programs or repeal business regulations.  We're just talking about ending our unnecessary meddling in the affairs of other nations.


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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4764956 -

Ancalagon said:
By and large these guys don't actually DO something about their feelings until we seriously fuck with them


Then its time to shake in our boots!


Ancalagon said:-- whether that's supporting their enemies, positioning troops on the land they consider holy, installing and bolstering the brutal regimes that 'lead' them, or just simply blowing up their children, THAT is the kind of stuff that drives people to terrorism. Not in every case, but a whole hell of a lot of the time.


Yeah, I understand that. Our policies are causing them to hate us. Their terrorist attacks are causing me to hate them. How about that? Does it work both ways? They blow up innocent civilians and you listen to their demands and are willing to comply. Why can't we be afforded the same options?

Terrorism will only grow in legitimacy. As Phred points out their strategic moves are dubious at best. There is no method to their madness. But keep trying to understand it.

Quote:
Ancalagon said:
Can you just cut the shit then and start advocating what you really believe in: the carpet-nuking of that entire civilization.


Can you just cut the shit and admit you are a western apologetic for muslim hardships? Everyone wants to be a revolutionary these days!

Ancalagon said:
I really can't tell whether I'm being baited or what. Does anyone else know if he's serious?


God forbid if we show strength and willingness to fight them. Oh heavens if we show eagerness to bring them to their graves. Their bravado inspires your hatred for your own country. Their gung-ho baby-killing inspires you to shift our foreign policy.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: looner2]
    #4765177 -

Quote:
Then its time to shake in our boots!


Glad you don't dispute the claim, saves me some trouble.

Quote:
Yeah, I understand that. Our policies are causing them to hate us. Their terrorist attacks are causing me to hate them. How about that? Does it work both ways? They blow up innocent civilians and you listen to their demands and are willing to comply. Why can't we be afforded the same options?



You may want to reread the past few pages. A focal point of the point myself and SS have been trying to prove to toilet is that we're not advocating the policy we advocate in an effort to comply with the demands of terrorists -- we're advocating it because it's the sensible fricking policy. That it happens to coincide with the desires of terrorists is no reason to drop extremely sensible policy proposals unless you have some obsession with looking macho on the world stage. God forbid we actually admitted we were wrong about something and took steps to fix where we erred. That would take a whole hell of a lot more balls than raining terror on civilian and terrorist alike.

Quote:
Terrorism will only grow in legitimacy. As Phred points out their strategic moves are dubious at best. There is no method to their madness. But keep trying to understand it.


So you think America's foreign policy over the past half century has had nothing to do with the motives of a good deal of (see: not all) terrorists?

Quote:
Can you just cut the shit and admit you are a western apologetic for muslim hardships? Everyone wants to be a revolutionary these days!


Would if I could, champ.

Quote:
God forbid if we show strength and willingness to fight them. Oh heavens if we show eagerness to bring them to their graves. Their bravado inspires your hatred for your own country.


Newsflash: Hatred of some policies of my country's government does NOT equal hatred of my country. Why do you have such trouble comprehending that?

Quote:
Their gung-ho baby-killing inspires you to shift our foreign policy.


The fact that our foreign policy has been and continues to be counter-productive and deleterious inspires me to desire a shift in our foreign policy. That these dickwad terrorists happen to agree with me is of no concern. Again, you said in another thread you believed in states rights -- let's say the federal government declared tomorrow that states no longer exist, we are now the Democratic Republic of America, all decisions will be made by the federal government. Let's say the groups that opposed this were legion: some protested, some actually took up arms against their government, and some indiscriminately killed anyone and everyone in order to get their point across. Would you see this latter group and say "you know, I really was for the whole states rights thing but these morons have totally soured me -- I can't possibly still believe in that; after all, that would be to agree with them and by extension their tactics. I guess I'll support the centralizers."?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4765555 -

Though I agree we need to get the fuck out of the Middle East and let them to their own business, it would be at best foolish and at worst idiotic to ignore the fact that the Islamic Fundamentalist are gonna draw new reasons out of the air to hate us. That's the type of behavior one can come to expect out of irrational people.

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4765569 -

Why don't they start hating the Chinese?

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: newuser1492]
    #4765582 -

Because its uber-trendy to hate America.

Plus, Islam and Christianity has historically been at odds with each other. There is no other country that represents Christianity (and decadence, somehow) than the US.

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4765599 -

Ancalagon said:
The fact that our foreign policy has been and continues to be counter-productive and deleterious inspires me to desire a shift in our foreign policy. That these dickwad terrorists happen to agree with me is of no concern.


What should we do?

[Reminder] We are at war right now. Our decisions will directly influence the outcome of this war. We could be defeated by these willy-nilly policy shifts for our precious "fricking sensibilities". We could be defeated if it even looks like we changed our policy for anything resembling our struggle in Iraq. Is this a risk we need to take?

Some times a bad strategy is just that. A bad strategic move. A move that should not have been made. But it was made. That doesn't mean you run backwards in attempt to fix the plan once its implemented. You need to finish. You can't accept defeat. We are a nation at war and instead of thinking about winning. Instead of ensuring that a defeat isn't a possibility. We are complaining and pouting over a bad strategic error. When does the patriotic spirit come out and take over for failed utopian dogma that has steam-rolled our thoughts? I hope soon. I hope before we lose heart again, and show weakness. Defeats now, are defeats in the future.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4765618 -

Redstorm said:
Though I agree we need to get the fuck out of the Middle East and let them to their own business, it would be at best foolish and at worst idiotic to ignore the fact that the Islamic Fundamentalist are gonna draw new reasons out of the air to hate us. That's the type of behavior one can come to expect out of irrational people.


I look at it the way I view people in this forum. There are some people who are just plain irrational, and who will never be able to see the voice of reason. There are others who are rational and hold the same opinions as me. Then there are those who are rational and argue a different position than I do, and there are those who are undecided. The last two categories are the ones whom I can hope to sway into seeing things my way(or maybe they could sway me to see their side of the issue). The fact that there will always be some who will always remain irrational does not change the fact that I can make a difference.

It's not like the extremists are in some fixed quantity. People aren't born extremists. If we create a more sensible foreign policy, hopefully we can reduce the percentage of people who will grow up to be extremists.


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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Silversoul]
    #4765624 -

There was no a point of contention in anything you just typed. Note my first sentence; I believe there needs to be reform. If we do, though, don't expect a safe future free from terrorists.

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Phred]
    #4768364 -

They do?

Well, they don't because only their heads are left and we havn't had any videos released yet. All we know is the bombers in London and Madrid said so. The leadership of al-qaeda have also blamed Iraq. I'm assuming these attacks are linked to Al-qaeda like the last Bali attack. I could be mistaken.

If you're not a suicide bomber, why do you claim the suicide bombers bombed Bali because hostilities were resumed in Iraq?

Because this is a reason al-qaeda have given for the other suicide attacks in London, Madrid and Bali?

If your theory is this Bali bombing has nothing to do with al-qaeda then maybe you have a point. Is this your claim?

This gets back to my point (and Steyn's point) that Islamic terrorists don't act rationally

His point was that there was no link between Iraq and the sucide attacks.

Blair also tried claiming the attacks in London had "nothing to do with Iraq" until the video of the suicide bomber was released which demolished his case. 

There is no possible way to rationally connect anything Bali has ever done with Iraq

Your point being? That the terrorists are somehow alone in acting irrationaly?

There's no rational way you can connect invading Iraq on the basis of non-existent WMD. There's no rational way you can connect launching an invasion of Iraq with a "War on terror". Need I go on? Rational acts don't appear to have a lot of sway in the world at the moment.

You present yourself as a rational person

When did I do this?  :grin:

What connection do you see between the bombings in Bali and the deposing of Hussein's Ba'athist regime in Iraq?


Oh my god, here we go again... :grin:

Convince me of the relevance of your question. Convince me that Alex's personal opinion on the mind of a suicide bomber has any relevance whatsoever. Then I'll steel myself and we can ignore all the evidence and facts in the real world and ride off into Alex V Phred fantasy land for one last hurrah.

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: looner2]
    #4768393 -

Some times a bad strategy is just that. A bad strategic move. A move that should not have been made. But it was made

And how.

If only God hadn't told Bush to do it.  :crazy:

We are complaining and pouting over a bad strategic error. When does the patriotic spirit come out and take over for failed utopian dogma that has steam-rolled our thoughts?

The patriotic spirit is accepting that launching an invasion of Iraq wasn't the best method of finding Bin Laden. That slaughtering thousands of innocent people means you leave a legacy of hatred and bitterness that our children's children will be dealing with long after we are dead.

Perhaps even thinking that launching wars isn't the best way of defeating terrorism. Perish the thought..

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Alex213]
    #4768410 -

Alex213 said:
The patriotic spirit is accepting that launching an invasion of Iraq wasn't the best method of finding Bin Laden.


WHAT!?!?! Maybe it wasn't the best strategic move. I said that.

I can't honestly believe you read my post and came up with a sentence like that. Do you just put words and phrases into the subject hoping that they correlate?


Alex213 said:
Perhaps even thinking that launching wars isn't the best way of defeating terrorism. Perish the thought..


Perishing sir.

**HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM***


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Alex213]
    #4768624 -

So you're not calling Steyn a moron because he made the statement you quoted, you're calling him a moron for some other reason. What reason is that?

Why Bali? What has Bali ever done to piss off the Jihadis? They have certainly never done anything to Iraq. Indonesia sent no troops to Iraq and I don't recall seeing any expressions of support from Indonesia for those who did. Whatever motivated the Jihadis to bomb Bali again clearly has nothing to do with Iraq. To call someone a moron for pointing out that glaringly obvious fact is absurd.

While it may be argued that the Madrid bombings and the London bombings were motivated by the presence in Iraq of Spanish and British troops in Iraq, the same cannot be argued regarding Bali. Or France or Morocco or Thailand. If the proposed solution to stopping Islamic terrorism is to stop doing stuff the Jihadis don't like, where did Bali fail? What did Bali continue doing that led the Jihadis to believe the Balinese needed to be punished again, other than allowing decadent hedonist fornicating Westerners to whoop it up in their bars and restaurants? Or, as Christopher Hitchens puts it --

Quote:
Never make the mistake of asking for rationality here. And never underestimate the power of theocratic propaganda. The fanatics look at the population of Bali and its foreign visitors and they see a load of Hindus selling drinks?often involving the presence of unchaperoned girls?to a load of Christians. That in itself is excuse enough for mayhem. They also see local Muslims following syncretic and tolerant forms of Islam, and they yearn to redeem them from this heresy and persuade them of the pure, desert-based truths of Salafism and Wahhabism. (One of the men on trial in Bali had been in trouble before, in his home village, for desecrating local Muslim shrines that he regarded as idolatrous.)


and

Quote:
Indonesia is a mainly Muslim society, whose government takes a stern line against the war in Iraq and even Afghanistan. Its people, who are astonishingly hospitable to all foreigners, depend in millions of cases on tourism to make the difference between indigence and the minimum wage. Its elections feature Muslim political parties, many of them quite austere in their propaganda. Why on earth, then, would a fundamentalist group wish to bring discredit upon itself and ruin upon its neighbors by resorting to random slaughter?


and

Quote:
So, what did Indonesia do to deserve this, or bring it on itself? How will the slaughter in Bali improve the lot of the Palestinians? Those who look for the connection will be doomed to ask increasingly stupid questions and to be content with increasingly wicked answers.


The title of the Hitchens article from which those excerpts were copied is "Terrorist attacks aren't caused by any policy except that of the bombers themselves". It can be found here -- http://politics.slate.msn.com/id/2127343/





Phred


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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Phred]
    #4772423 -

Phred, how is it that an inability to attribute the recent Bali attacks to our policies in Iraq invalidates the fact that many, MANY terrorists do cite our foreign policy as the reason for their actions? I refuse to believe that even you think this is some finisher in the foreign policy as a factor argument -- ALL it proves is that this particular attack MAY not be a result of another particular foreign policy incident.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4772439 -

Redstorm said:
There was no a point of contention in anything you just typed. Note my first sentence; I believe there needs to be reform. If we do, though, don't expect a safe future free from terrorists.


Nobody should. What we can reasonably expect, however, is far less popular support for terrorism in the long run. Far less funding for the groups still intent upon carrying out such acts. Far more resources available at home to try and stop the far fewer attacks that will attempt to be carried out against us.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4772547 -

Quote:
Phred, how is it that an inability to attribute the recent Bali attacks to our policies in Iraq invalidates the fact that many, MANY terrorists do cite our foreign policy as the reason for their actions?


And many, MANY other criminals lie as well. Terrorists routinely lie -- for example they are instructed they must allege torture and abuse at every opportunity once captured.

But in this case it's not even necessarily a deliberate lie -- they've been propagandized in their madrassahs and their mosques practically from birth, after all. It's been drilled into their heads at every opportunity by those for whom they hold the most respect and reverence -- their religious leaders -- that everything is either the fault of the Jooooos or the Great Satan. It's certainly not the fault of The Faithful.

I ask again -- just what is so "horrendous" about America's foreign policy towards Muslims over the last half century? America helped Muslims against their real oppressors in Afghanistan, Somalia, Kuwait, Bosnia, Kosovo. No one else did (except in the case of the Afghani resistance). America gives more foreign aid to Muslim nations than any other nation.

The only example you have given so far of America screwing Muslims is the CIA's backing of regime change in Iran fifty-two years ago. Even if we recognize this as a genuine screwing-over of Muslims, my question remains -- at what point is the sin of aiding the Shah avenged? How many Americans are to be killed by Jihadis before they consider the debt repaid? Note that bin Laden has never mentioned this particular "grievance" in his laundry list of reasons for declaring war on the US. His main excuse for ordering the 9/11 attacks was always first and foremost the monstrous "offense" of fulfilling the request of a Muslim nation for a garrison of American troops to deter the "secular" Iraq from attempting to pull off another Kuwait.

Come to think of it, I don't recall seeing ANY terrorists using the 1953 coup in Iran as an excuse for attacking infidels.

My point is, despite many MANY terrorists claiming that America's foreign policy harms Muslims, the fact is that the reverse is true. I have pointed out above several instances of America aiding Muslims. I ask again for instances of American actions harming them. This whole "blame the Jooooos and Great Satan" schtick of theirs is similar to the way the schizoid and the paranoid blame caregivers for their troubles. It is simply not true that America screws over Muslims nor is it rational to believe it is true.

And there's the main problem with the whole appeasement strategy. Just as one can never successfully appease a paranoid, one can never successfully appease the Islamic fanatics, because their "grievances" -- being manufactured grievances -- can never be appeased.





Phred


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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Phred]
    #4776526 -

From http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/TheList.htm --

Quote:
About the List of Terrorist Attacks



This list, of nearly 3,000 terrorist attacks committed by Muslims since 9/11/01 (a rate better than two per day), is incomplete because not all attacks were picked up by international news sources, even those involving multiple loss of life. We included an attack if it was committed by Muslims in the name of Islam, and usually only if loss of life occurred (with a handful of exceptions where there were a very large number of injuries). In several cases, the victims are undercounted because deaths from trauma caused by the Islamists may occur in later days, despite the best efforts of medical personnel to keep the victims alive.

We usually avoid including acts occurring in combat situations, such as Iraq and Afghanistan, unless they involved particularly heinous terrorist tactics. Unprovoked sniper, drive-by or roadside bombing attacks on military personnel serving normal police duties are sometimes included when available.

Unfortunately, this list of Muslim terrorist attacks barely scratches the surface of atrocities committed in the name of Islam that occur world-wide each day. For that reason, we don't tally up the dead and dismembered.

The ridiculous level of violence that Islam serves up to the world makes it impossible to compile a complete list.

We hope that this site can at least educate ordinary people to the threat that the "Religion of Peace" poses across the globe, and put into perspective complaints over "Islamophobia."

Who knows - perhaps one day Muslims will have a change of heart and take the sort of action that one might expect of people who believe that it really is wrong to kill in the name of their religion. We'll know when this happens because it will be when Islam exchanges petty complaining for true contrition, and roots out the extremist elements to end the violence, as opposed to offering occasional lip service that is designed merely to appeal to Western sensibilities.


The link to the list is below. My first scan through it gave me the impression attacks against Israelis seem to be severely under-represented, but Muslim violence against Israelis is so old hat by now that many people don't even consider it to be real terrorism anymore -- their take on it is that the Israelis are the real terrorists anyway.

Even taking out the attacks which occured in Israel, Iraq, and Afghanistan, there were one heck of a lot of Muslims committing one heck of a lot of attacks in a period of just over four years.

I'd really like to know just what countries such as


Algeria
Bangladesh
Belgium
Dagestan
Denmark
Egypt
Eritrea
Ethiopia
France
India
Indonesia
Jordan
Kenya
Kuwait
Lebanon
Mauritania
Morocco
Netherlands
Nigeria
Pakistan
Philippines
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Scotland
Somalia
Sri Lanka
Sudan
Syria
Thailand
Tunisia
Turkey
UAR
Yemen

are doing to piss off the jihadis and just what policies the governments of those countries should adopt in order to appease the jihadis to the point where they'll stop.

Maybe some of the readers of this thread have some ideas.

Here's the list:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/default.htm#attacks

It makes for some fascinating reading.



Phred


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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Phred]
    #4776632 -

Quote:
Phred said:
I'd really like to know just what countries such as

Egypt



Mubarak's government gets aid from the U.S. Also, he rules with an iron-fist and routinely cracks down on Islamists.

Quote:
Phred said:
India



India has a history of animosity with its Muslim neighbor (Pakistan). Also, there is the whole Kashmir mess.

Quote:
Phred said:
Jordan



The Jordanian government gets aid from and is allies with the U.S.

Quote:
Phred said:
Kuwait



The Kuwaiti royal family has deep ties with the U.S. government.

Quote:
Phred said:
Pakistan



Musharraf is viewed as a U.S. ass-kisser because he helps the U.S. with the war on terror.

Quote:
Phred said:
Saudi Arabia



The Saudi Royal family has long been deeply allied with the U.S. government. The average Saudi citizen hates their government but they are unable to vote them out as it is a monarchy.

The U.S. government P.R. people claim that they love freedom and democracy but at the same time the U.S. sometimes gives money and weapons to dictatorial regimes in order to ensure they stay in power because it serves U.S. strategic or financial interests.

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