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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Alex213]
    #4763251 -

Alex213 writes:

Quote:
The connection I see is the suicide bombers telling us they are planting the bombs in retaliation for Iraq.

Suicide bomber's video confession blames Iraq war
By Daniel McGrory and Michael Theodoulou

IN A filmed confession shown on an Arabic satellite network last night, Mohammed Siddique Khan, the leader of the July 7 London bombers, explained why he was prepared to die in a suicide attack....


Sorry, I must not have made my question clear enough. Let me try again --

What connection do you see between the bombings in Bali and the deposing of Hussein's Ba'athist regime in Iraq?



Phred


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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Phred]
    #4763257 -

None. You are not asking the most important (or relevant) question, though.

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4763261 -

Ancalagon, I suggest you re-read the forum rules before posting here again. Flaming is not allowed in this forum. Referring to another user as an idiot is a flame.

You get one warning. This is that warning.




Phred


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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Phred]
    #4763308 -

Phred said:
Ancalagon, I suggest you re-read the forum rules before posting here again. Flaming is not allowed in this forum. Referring to another user as an idiot is a flame.

You get one warning. This is that warning.




Phred


Are there any rules against not posting frivolous crap all over a supposedly serious forum? If yes I'd suggest some action. If not I should probably spend more time elsewhere.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4763372 -

Ancalagon said:
This seems to assume that there are a fixed number of terrorists, X, that would be fully engaged in plots against the American homeland but, because of the wisdom of our Great Leader, are instead squandering themselves upon the Grand American Army in Iraq. That, of course, is total horseshit.


If an islamic-jihadist wanted to kill Americans one way or another, it makes it much more likely he'll easily travel to Iraq and join their resistance against us then figure out how to get here. How is this total horseshit?

Ancalagon said:
You have absolutely no way to know that our actions in Iraq haven't created FAR more terrorists than have been killed so far -- Donald Rumsfeld admitted as much in his speech on the impossibility of getting metrics for this war.


You are right, and it is not my concern in the slightest. If pictures of pigs are pissing off of muslims, then I don't want to even comprehend shifting our policy to quell their nuttiness. Appeasement shouldn't be in the American dictionary.

As Frederick the Great said, ""Diplomacy without arms is like music without instruments."

Thank god we are bringing the music. These muslims don't need understanding, they need death, and lots of it.

More terrorist-muslims being inspired by the Iraq war = more terrorists we can kill.

That is the war America needs to understand. We will destroy them before they destroy us. Why? Because we are stronger, richer, freer, and have more will. Of course, the protesters and appeasers would like to crush our will, and it is because of that they support and embolden terrorism across the world.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4763402 -

Los_Pepes is not the only one posting "frivolous crap" here. And what makes you say that particular post qualifies as frivolous crap? As anyone can tell from his posting history, Los_Pepes maintains that Islam is a real and serious source of danger in today's world. He is certainly not alone in that opinion.

What is the substantive difference between expressing that opinion or expressing the opinion that fundamentalist Christians are a real and serious source of danger in today's world? We certainly see enough of those kind of posts in this forum. Hardly a week goes by without several of them.

You are free to disagree with his opinions, and you are also free to attempt to show his opinions are erroneous. Just do it without flaming, please.


Phred


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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4763403 -

Ancalagon said:
Phred said:
Ancalagon, I suggest you re-read the forum rules before posting here again. Flaming is not allowed in this forum. Referring to another user as an idiot is a flame.

You get one warning. This is that warning.




Phred


Are there any rules against not posting frivolous crap all over a supposedly serious forum? If yes I'd suggest some action. If not I should probably spend more time elsewhere.



You, and a lot of other on the far left, post a lot of frivolous crap on this forum. You obviously don't understand a lot of things. Phred is trying to explain it and still many of you seem to be in a fog somewhere.


--------------------
Bush bashers beware http://graypantherssf.igc.org/guantanamo.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46501


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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Phred]
    #4763438 -

Sorry, I must not have made my question clear enough. Let me try again

Oh dear, it's not Phreds "make up an irrelevant question and then keep asking it when you lack a valid argument" time again is it? :rolleyes:

What connection do you see between the bombings in Bali and the deposing of Hussein's Ba'athist regime in Iraq?


Lets not personalise this. What connection I see is irrelevant because I'm not a suicide bomber. It's what connection the suicide bombers see that matters. And they blame the invasion of Iraq.

If you have an answer to this then please post it. If you have no answer please don't clog up another thread up by posting the same question 20 times for lack of a point.

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Phred]
    #4763510 -

Phred said:
Los_Pepes is not the only one posting "frivolous crap" here. And what makes you say that particular post qualifies as frivolous crap? As anyone can tell from his posting history, Los_Pepes maintains that Islam is a real and serious source of danger in today's world. He is certainly not alone in that opinion.

What is the substantive difference between expressing that opinion or expressing the opinion that fundamentalist Christians are a real and serious source of danger in today's world? We certainly see enough of those kind of posts in this forum. Hardly a week goes by without several of them.

You are free to disagree with his opinions, and you are also free to attempt to show his opinions are erroneous. Just do it without flaming, please.


Phred


What is all that?

I'm referring to frivolous crap as exemplified by the post I responded to with my flame. That picture he posted is nothing but a total waste of everyone's time. I can't even see how that's a point of contention. My question, restated: Is consistently making posts that do absolutely nothing to add to the topics being discussed in the PA&L forum some kind of offense or not? If not, can I just start posting my favorite song lyrics in every thread on the first page here every hour on the hour? If not, why not?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: looner2]
    #4763575 -

Quote:
If an islamic-jihadist wanted to kill Americans one way or another, it makes it much more likely he'll easily travel to Iraq and join their resistance against us then figure out how to get here. How is this total horseshit?


Strawman. I said the implicit suggestion that there was a fixed number of terrorists that, by virtue of our presence in Iraq, will spend their time there instead of in the United States, was horseshit. A very important thing you totally disregard is the number of people who have extremely strong anti-U.S. feelings but yet not so strong that they'd be willing to deal with everything an international terror plot entails. These people might be willing to carry out such carnage much closer to home since we've given them the opportunity.

Quote:
You are right, and it is not my concern in the slightest. If pictures of pigs are pissing off of muslims, then I don't want to even comprehend shifting our policy to quell their nuttiness. Appeasement shouldn't be in the American dictionary.


Here's what you are having trouble understanding. These people may seem crazy to us, getting pissed off at pictures of pigs and pictures of women showing any skin whatsoever, whatever. Getting pissed off at stupid shit (in my opinion) and actually DOING something about it are two very different things. By and large these guys don't actually DO something about their feelings until we seriously fuck with them -- whether that's supporting their enemies, positioning troops on the land they consider holy, installing and bolstering the brutal regimes that 'lead' them, or just simply blowing up their children, THAT is the kind of stuff that drives people to terrorism. Not in every case, but a whole hell of a lot of the time.

Quote:
Thank god we are bringing the music. These muslims don't need understanding, they need death, and lots of it.

More terrorist-muslims being inspired by the Iraq war = more terrorists we can kill.



Can you just cut the shit then and start advocating what you really believe in: the carpet-nuking of that entire civilization.

Quote:
That is the war America needs to understand. We will destroy them before they destroy us. Why? Because we are stronger, richer, freer, and have more will. Of course, the protesters and appeasers would like to crush our will, and it is because of that they support and embolden terrorism across the world.


I really can't tell whether I'm being baited or what. Does anyone else know if he's serious?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4763619 -

Ancalagon writes:

Quote:
I have absolutely no idea what motivated the Bali bombers, I have not even close to enough knowledge to even venture a guess. What I'm wondering is, what does that have to do with the terrorists that attacked America?


You seem content to accept the proposal that America was attacked by Islamic terrorists because of what America did. I'm just curious as to what you think Bali did. Or Morocco. Or France, or Thailand.

Quote:
Many, a GREAT many, of those terrorists (you know, the ones that America's foreign policy should be considering) have in fact listed our various escapades in the region along with our support of various regimes in the region has a huge part of why they do what they do.


Why do you believe the proclamations of the Islamists who state such things while disbelieving the proclamations of the Islamists ranting against godlessness and ancient grievances such as the Crusades?

Quote:
I do not think it is the only reason they do what they do -- it is undoubtedly a mix of an easily distorted ideaology that can gain easy ground because of the desperation many in the region have and the grievances (many of them very valid) they can be justified in having with certain western powers. You challenged me a while ago to give you one example of America interfering in the Arab world; I gave you the case of the CIA directed coup of the democratically elected government of Iran and subsequent elevation of the brutal Shah to power. I don't believe you ever followed that up -- do you really think America's horrendous foreign policy over the last half century or so has not fueled the fire immensely?


There is a difference between one arguably incorrect foreign policy decision made a half century ago and a half century of "horrendous foreign policy". Almost none of the actors in the 1953 Shah business are even alive today. Is this going to be another case of them nursing a grudge for centuries, like the loss of Andalusia and the Crusades? Because if it is, then there's nothing we can do to stop the acts they perform out of rage over the Shah. We don't yet have time travel -- we can't go back and un-install the Shah.

I'd really like to know just what Muslims object to about US foreign policy towards Muslims. The US aided Muslims against the godless USSR in Afghanistan, and they aided Muslims against the genocidal actions of the Serbs. They aided the Muslim Kuwaitis who had been invaded by the (as the Lefties never tire of telling us) "secular" Iraqis. The US has provided hundreds of billions of dollars in aid to Muslim countries over the last half century.

So what is their beef?

Quote:
Is it not conceivable that someone who may sit in the sand and muse about how much he hates the decadence of the west would not dare consider actually doing something about it until, say, his son's leg was blown off by an American grenade? Or his house was destroyed by an American Apache? Anything?


It is conceivable, sure. No act is without consequences. But let's turn that question around:

Is it not conceivable that someone who may sit in the sand and muse about how much he hates the decadence of the west would not dare consider actually doing something about it if he knew he'd be hunted down and killed and his wife and kids left to fend for themselves?

I've brought up this point before -- just as actions have consequences, so does inaction. it would be a wonderful world if we knew unerringly in advance just what course of action (or inaction) would turn out to be the optimal half a century down the road. Too bad life doesn't work like that. Let's take the example of Osama bin Laden as an illustration:

The US assisted bin Laden and other Muslims in chasing the Soviets out of Afghanistan. Bin Laden's gesture of gratitude for this assistance? Attack America. In retrospect then, would it have been wiser to side with the Soviets and help them kill the mujahadin, bin Laden among them?

Isolationists argue that's a false dichotomy -- the fallacy of the excluded middle -- and say it would have been better to stay out of the mess altogether. Leave both the Sovs and the Afghans to sort it out amongst themselves. This is an attractive argument and one I tend to lean towards myself. The problem (when it comes to Islamic terrorists) is that staying out of their conflicts pisses them off too. It's no secret that many European Muslims became radicalized by Europe's inaction to the slaughter of Muslims going on in their own backyard. They felt the world was deliberately sitting on their hands because they wanted to see Muslims exterminated and were happy to sit back and let the Serbians do the dirty work.

Yet when the US ended the slaughter, did they get brownie points for it? Nope.

The root problem isn't what the secular West does or doesn't do. It's what the secular West is -- what it represents. As the terrorist was saying about the French tanker -- "No problem. They're all infidels."




Phred


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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Alex213]
    #4763688 -

My question was in response to your comment --

Quote:
Does this moron have any evidence to support his proposition?


Steyn's proposition was that despite Clive William's blathering, nobody seriously thinks what happened in Bali has anything to do with Iraq. You disagree strongly enough with that proposition to label Steyn a "moron", therefore it logically follows that you -- a non-moron -- do seriously think what happened in Bali has something to do with Iraq.

I'd just like to know what connection you see.

Quote:
What connection I see is irrelevant because I'm not a suicide bomber. It's what connection the suicide bombers see that matters. And they blame the invasion of Iraq.


They do? If you're not a suicide bomber, why do you claim the suicide bombers bombed Bali because hostilities were resumed in Iraq? Did you come across a statement somewhere from one of them that says that? Could you provide us a link to that statement, perhaps?

This gets back to my point (and Steyn's point) that Islamic terrorists don't act rationally. This is why trying to analyze their actions through rational means gets you nowhere. There is no possible way to rationally connect anything Bali has ever done with Iraq. Yet Bali has been bombed. Twice.

You present yourself as a rational person. What connection do you see between the bombings in Bali and the deposing of Hussein's Ba'athist regime in Iraq?




Phred


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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4763731 -

Ancalagon writes:

Quote:
I'm referring to frivolous crap as exemplified by the post I responded to with my flame. That picture he posted is nothing but a total waste of everyone's time.


And I correctly pointed out that a lot of posts made here are wastes of everyone's time. Los-Pepes is far from the only one here who posts images in threads. At least this particular image addresses a point under discussion in the thread -- the danger of Islam.

Quote:
I can't even see how that's a point of contention. My question, restated: Is consistently making posts that do absolutely nothing to add to the topics being discussed in the PA&L forum some kind of offense or not?


It is an annoyance. It is not a bannable offense. Flaming is a bannable offense.

Quote:
If not, can I just start posting my favorite song lyrics in every thread on the first page here every hour on the hour? If not, why not?


You could do that. You wouldn't be the first to post song lyrics in this forum. You would of course lose the respect of many readers of this forum who at present have an admiration for your method of discussion, but that's your call.

If it ever got to the point where your song lyrics were completely clogging the forum, one of the forum moderators might choose to delete duplicate posts, or perhaps lock the thread, or perhaps move the post to a different forum. One of the forum moderators might send you a PM or two asking you to reconsider your style of posting.





Phred


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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Phred]
    #4763791 -

What about digging up an 2 year old thread and then posting some garbage in an inflammatory response to a member that no longer visits this forum? Not only that, but the said member then creates a thread on the same general topic (also with no sort of important input).

Though I don't agree with his views often, I would respect him a lot more if he actual took part in the forum in a way which furthers the discussion.

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4763844 -

There's a difference between behaving in a way that engenders the respect of the readers of the forum and breaking the forum rules.

There are several posters (some of them regulars) in this forum for whom I have no respect and at least one for whom I have actual contempt. But I let those people post whatever they want until they break a rule, at which time they are dealt with.

I'm not an elitist -- I figure if I'm sharp enough to recognize someone as a fool or a liar, most of the others reading the same posts will draw the same conclusion. Rather than censor someone's words, I prefer to let them stand as a permanent record of just how loopy some humans can be.

That is not to say that any of the posters to this thread necessarily meet the criteria of fool or liar -- it is just a general explanation of the moderator philosophy in place in this forum; people are free to espouse any political opinion -- no matter how whacky or distasteful some other people may find it -- as long as they don't break the rules.

My advice to those who find a particular poster's output to be distasteful is to use the "ignore" feature built into the bulletin board software.





Phred


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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Phred]
    #4763896 -

Good call on the ignore feature. I totally forgot we had that. Now I can browse in peace.

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4764359 -

Quote:
Thank god we are bringing the music. These muslims don't need understanding, they need death, and lots of it.

More terrorist-muslims being inspired by the Iraq war = more terrorists we can kill.

That is the war America needs to understand. We will destroy them before they destroy us. Why? Because we are stronger, richer, freer, and have more will. Of course, the protesters and appeasers would like to crush our will, and it is because of that they support and embolden terrorism across the world.



I agree 100%


--------------------
Bush bashers beware http://graypantherssf.igc.org/guantanamo.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46501


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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4764407 -

Ancalagon said:
Hypothetical incoming, bear with me: Assume our government becomes extremely tyrannical at some point in the future. Let's say various groups pursue violent means (since there is truly no other option for them) of fighting the tyranny. Some groups make sure to only attack the greatest outposts of governmental tyranny. Other groups target any government building. Still other groups attack anyone and anything that will get their message out. Now obviously the first two groups are far more legitimate than the third -- the third, in fact, is a disgrace and should not be lionized at all. Now let's say citizens in this country are considering these groups and their message -- many of them can't help but agree with every single one of these groups's philosophies: the government is most certainly tyrannical and it needs to be stopped. A certain sect, however, says that regardless of the plausibility of the argument these groups present, the citizens should not support such proposals because to do so would be to give the actions of that third group credence and that would simply be unconscionable. What say you?


Wouldn't trying to overthrow a government some might precieve as tyrannical by blowing up innocents be in and of itself tyrannical? Someone once said; "you can make a throne out of bayonets, but you can't sit in it for very long".

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4764453 -

Quote:
Wouldn't trying to overthrow a government some might precieve as tyrannical by blowing up innocents be in and of itself tyrannical? Someone once said; "you can make a throne out of bayonets, but you can't sit in it for very long".


Please answer the relevant question. Would you still favor the policies (the end of the tyrannical government) that this group is in favor of despite the fact that you find what they're doing in the name of such policies unconscionable?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4764473 -

Nope. The ends do not justify the means. Now about my question..

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