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OfflineBabaOreilly
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Convincing Facts
    #4742379 - 10/01/05 10:16 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Hey everyone
I need some argument points for convincing a skeptic loved one that psychedelics (ie pislocybin, lsd) can be used to acheive a higher level of being, self awareness, and spirituallity. This must be done preferally without actually incriminating myself as to actually having used them.

Convinving this person is not a must, but he/she currently am aware of my standing/viewpoints and are concerned, so I would appreciate some hard facts or anything. Maybe if anyone else has bin in this situation they could help me out.
Thanks guys!

P.S.
It will not be easy. This person dismisses any pro-psychedelic thought as being utterly insane or as being propoganda.


Edited by BabaOreilly (10/01/05 10:17 PM)


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: Convincing Facts [Re: BabaOreilly]
    #4742415 - 10/01/05 10:26 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

if they're anti-drug and have nevere used psychedelics, they can not be convinced, and it amy harm your reputation with them if you even try...

anti-druggism is as dogmatic a religion as any other...


--------------------
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OfflineWeAreAllOne
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Re: Convincing Facts [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4742523 - 10/01/05 10:57 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MikeOLogical said:
if they're anti-drug and have nevere used psychedelics, they can not be convinced, and it amy harm your reputation with them if you even try...

anti-druggism is as dogmatic a religion as any other...




what he said. they won't believe unless they want to.


the best thing i could think of to use is trip reports.
some of them can be quite moving when you read what the
person has taken away from the experience.

good luck.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Convincing Facts [Re: WeAreAllOne]
    #4742589 - 10/01/05 11:13 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

trip reports are good, also refer him/her to some of the studies done that demonstrated a positive behavioral change in people exposed to drugs vs placebo. for example timothy leary's good friday miracle or the concord prison experiment.


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OfflineWeAreAllOne
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Re: Convincing Facts [Re: Deviate]
    #4742705 - 10/01/05 11:35 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

i read somewhere that AA had a 5% success rate in curing alcoholism
while LSD administered properly under the correct conditions had a
50% success rate in curing alcoholism.

sorry for the loose use of "cure," i don't really consider alcoholism a disease.


i just found that fact interesting.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Convincing Facts [Re: BabaOreilly]
    #4743786 - 10/02/05 02:48 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

It will not be easy.

When the going gets tough.....























































































The tough gets going! 

Lots of deep space to cover first... :smirk:



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (10/02/05 02:53 AM)


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Convincing Facts [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4744291 - 10/02/05 05:57 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

you can always dose them....


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Convincing Facts [Re: BabaOreilly]
    #4744416 - 10/02/05 08:17 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

not going to be easy, even if you believe what you are saying, and have experienced a few things, and no one will disbelieve you are youreself certain.
because
it is always possible that the terms of spiritual conviction which are used are too conflicty:

For some people the occurence of synchronicity is enough to sense being part of something greater,
while for others
the opportunity must guarantee seeing and testing angels (or god) and there can be no chance that the angels are not devils (or fake/illusion).

Still others actually want the devils.

when synchronicity is key to understanding the connectedness of all things, you can quickly collect convinceable converts


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OfflineBabaOreilly
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Re: Convincing Facts [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4744522 - 10/02/05 09:39 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

hey thanks guys! lots of great responses. I like the good friday stuff and the prison experiments. One last thing:
What do i say to this:
"The people who say drugs can be used spiritually are full of shit - It is just an excuse for them to use drugs because they like the feeling and the immediate effects of it while they are under the influence. Any long-lasting effects are due to an imbalance in brain chemicals caused by taking the drug in the first place."

and also:

"These drugs may not be physically addictive but they are psychologically. People who claim that they only use them 2-4 times a year are only kidding themselves."

I tried looking through those tables and graphs about the demographics and use of drugs in america, but no statistics about how often people use them a year were given.

Thanks again!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Convincing Facts [Re: BabaOreilly]
    #4744721 - 10/02/05 11:02 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

just say
"I know you are but what am I?" (-pee wee herman, circa 1989 - I think)
repeatedly
and that will end that argument


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Convincing Facts [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4744795 - 10/02/05 11:56 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

hmm interesting. i have to agree with the first response.

Quote:

It is just an excuse for them to use drugs because they like the feeling and the immediate effects of it while they are under the influence.




- hard to argue with, but maybe mentioning the fact that "druggies" didn't actually invent drugs, most were discovered by scientists (some reputable ones even) researching ancient traditions from aztecs to christians, and in many of those cultures only the wisest are permitted to use them. This kind of kills the whole recreational thing, by bringing up how spiritually important they are to certain populations, not just individuals.

it was really the western doctors and scientists that introduced this into the public, therefore giving birth to this "drug culture" as we know it today. Many of the drug researchers all had enormous respect for the drugs as well, I'm quite sure none of them started out with the intention to create party drugs. Creating mind-altering drugs with ill intentions is the CIA's job (throw that last bit in there if you really want scare the person you are talking to haha).

Quote:

"These drugs may not be physically addictive but they are psychologically. People who claim that they only use them 2-4 times a year are only kidding themselves."




- also hard to argue, but this could be used to describe just about any over-the-counter pill I can think of. Not to mention prescription.. I mean what about Viagra users? Certainly that has somewhat of a psychological addiction because of its physical effects... then ask them how many different drugs they do in a year more than 2-4 times. I bet it's a lot more than they realized.. and if they still say less than 2-4, well.. then they are lying.

Quote:

Any long-lasting effects are due to an imbalance in brain chemicals caused by taking the drug




ask them how much tuna fish they eat per year

then ask em how much nutrasweet / sugar substitues they have in a year...

both of those products are also linked to long term brain defects, ranging from mental disorders to brain tumors.


--------------------
music: myspace.com/soundscientists
.
I have the heart of a child. I keep it in a jar on my shelf.

No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


Edited by kotik (10/02/05 12:06 PM)


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Offlinechaospilot
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Re: Convincing Facts [Re: kotik]
    #4746471 - 10/02/05 09:18 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

the thing is, everything can be mentally addictive... look at video games... people have shown with drawl symptoms after not being able to play EVERQUEST for a while....

and of course they like the way they feel when they're under the influence, why else would they take them? You can say spiritual finding, but the fact is, if they like that, its because they like the feeling that they get while doing it. Same reason why we have sex, masturbate, listen to music, sleep, and play games. Its because we like the way it feels.

If you do anything that you're not being forced into doing, then chances are you like what you feel while doing it, that doesnt make it bad.


and as for the "Any long-lasting effects are due to an imbalance in brain chemicals caused by taking the drug". I think that's just absurd.... ask them for the proof, or did they just make that up? I dont have any links or anything with me, but i am pretty sure i have read that they dont do any long term physical effects to your body, and a chemical imbalance would happen to be a physical effect.


anyhow, i would just use what i just said, and i have many times, and it seems to work..... ask them how many hours upon hours of independent research they have done on the effects of shrooms and LSD on the human body.... and say "i have done 500 hours" or some BS like that, even if it hasnt been 500 hours....


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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Convincing Facts [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4746598 - 10/02/05 09:50 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MikeOLogical said:
if they're anti-drug and have nevere used psychedelics, they can not be convinced, and it amy harm your reputation with them if you even try...

anti-druggism is as dogmatic a religion as any other...




So true man...so true.

Just last night I was with my good group of friends who are all against any and all things related to psychedelics.  It's funny because it's totally fine for them to drink and toke on some grass though  :smirk:

We were all sitting around the fire having some fun bullshitting.  They all know my standing/view points on lsd/mushroom use...and I'm seriously thought of(behind my back) as the nut who doesn't know what he's talking about.

The whole thing started when my one friend started poking fun at me for cutting from a joint.  It was all in good humour and I didn't get all defensive or anything.  But he started poking fun about how I couldn't handle it.  We are all good friends and things are always like this between us.  I started joking about giving him 4 hits of acid, along with myself, and see who could "handle it".  And it was at that moment the whole discussion started.

My buddy's gf came in with a comment about how lsd is totally bad for you because "yea, they won't let pilots fly if they have used it or something.  I heard that somewhere".  How can my eyes NOT roll into the back of my head?  :smirk:  That was one of her argumenets for why acid is so bad.  I tried to tell her about some of the toxicology studies and other various studies that have been done and she totally refused to believe anything I had to say.  Like I mean, I'd be talking and she, along with everyone else in the group, would basically be ignoring me.  They'd here what I was saying, but it was off in the distance.  They'd even spark their own conversations with each other while I'm trying to talk.  And then when I'm finished saying something...they decide to come back into the discussion with an entirely new and equally disturbing piece of propoganda info of "why it's so bad".  It's VERY frustrating.

I'm totally discredited because I've used them.  That's exactly what it is.  It get's so frustrating to have them ALL agree with one another and say a whole bunch of mindless garbage to me and the minute I start speaking...i'm ignored on purpose and they continue with their own conversations.  It really causes a person to want to either A. rant and not let them get a word in or B. shut up because you know, no matter what you say, they are 100% right

I was drinking and when they started mocking me and basically totally downplaying my credibility...trying to test my knowledge by a simple question of "who made it"...I went off on a rant  :wink:  Though, it was a very intelligent rant with many facts to back up what I was saying(facts that I offered to make available the next day)...half of it was unheard because they knew(rather, though they knew) that they were right and I was just the nut who couldn't be convinced otherwise.  So I was ignored while everyone else started talking about something else.

I get so angry thinking about it right now even.  I have to hear so much propoganda garbage coming from their mouth...yet no matter what I have to say is legit enough.  These people will never be wrong when it comes to the usage of lsd.  And I have to listen to all of them talk this mindless garbage and even when I come up with a very good rebuttal and even ask them to show me proof of something like "there's no way it's not toxic.  It totally destroys brain cells and eats away this...and eats away that, etc, etc"....I still get all of them rolling eyes at me as the one who's "so far gone...so nutty...that I can't be convinced".

It's fucking bullshit.  The propoganda programs since the 70's have really done a good job.


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Offlineporcupine
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Re: Convincing Facts [Re: Spooge]
    #4747250 - 10/03/05 12:25 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Just last night I was with my good group of friends who are all against any and all things related to psychedelics. It's funny because it's totally fine for them to drink and toke on some grass though





grass is psychedelic


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Convincing Facts [Re: Spooge]
    #4747632 - 10/03/05 01:57 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

that sucks entityexperiement, your friends sound very close-minded about this


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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Convincing Facts [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4748108 - 10/03/05 04:42 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

crunchytoast said:
that sucks entityexperiement, your friends sound very close-minded about this




Yes they are.  They are all such good people though.  Very good people.  They have just been brought up in a society that makes these substances look very bad.  It's hammered into their head since they are born.  And hearing the countless rumours and stories when growing up does quite a toll.  It's just so frustrating trying to get the truth out there.

When I try to give my rebuttal...it's not one of "drugs are good" type thing.  I talk about how these CAN be very unhealthy substances...but I believe that almost anything out there is unhealthy in some aspect.  Everything out there has it's pros and cons and I think it's only right to be educated on all of them.

That being said...I tell them the cons, but as soon as I try to tell the pros...I'm totally discredited because I've used them.  I'm just another druggie trying to say that these things may not be as bad as we've been brought up to believe.

I constantly feel like the outkast with my friends.  They are all probably totally percieved as being in a certain high standing social class(and all of that means sqaut to me though).  Besides this HUGE flaw of theirs...they are all very intelligent people.  Somehow I became friends with all of them.  I'm a total outkast in the group though.  Like I don't feel like shit around them or anything.  It's just, especially in situations like the one posted above, I am on a different side of the line.  I'm the more eccentric, wacky, crazy one out of all of them  :wink:  But somehow manage to exude enough smarts so that I have some respect.  But still doesn't change the fact that at a lot of times...I'm the outkast.

I will never be right when it comes to these discussions and, in their mind, they will never be wrong.  It wouldn't matter what I showed them, what I said...it's all just coming from "another guy who's been wacked out on bad drugs"  :smirk:


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Convincing Facts [Re: Spooge]
    #4748287 - 10/03/05 07:29 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

i prefer not to hang out with many drug users. does that make me a hypocrite?


--------------------
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I have the heart of a child. I keep it in a jar on my shelf.

No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Convincing Facts [Re: Spooge]
    #4748456 - 10/03/05 10:12 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

They are all such good people though.




I guess you mean good in the sense that they follow all the rules. My definition of good people is a little different then yours. It doesn't include being closed-minded. It does include those who are able to challenge the programming they have been given by society by learning to think for themselves.

I suggest you find some new friends.  :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Convincing Facts [Re: Icelander]
    #4750377 - 10/03/05 06:48 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

When I say good people...I mean just that...they are good people.  They are good to people around them.  They have fun and are generally good towards all others.  They have good ideas and I dunno how else to explain it.  I guess I should rephrase.  The best way to describe them is...they are totally NOT bad people.

You have to realize that when I descrive scenarios like above, it's pretty lighthearted.  There are actually no nasty vibes or disrespect going on.  But nonetheless I still start to feel pretty detatched because in that one area...they AREN'T willing to challenge that specefic programming.  And I'm looked at like a nut  :smirk:

But your right...I'm trying to open the doors to new friendships.  I'm not going to ditch these people.  They've always been there for me.  But I'm trying to make new friends.

Best of all is a new woman I've met in my life.  I really feel comfortable being me and she is very open to all this stuff.  Which is so nice for a change.  She's very analytical...but still keeps an open mind.  I so dig it


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OfflineBabaOreilly
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Re: Convincing Facts [Re: Spooge]
    #4751187 - 10/03/05 09:48 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Wow alot of good stuff here thanks!
Quote:

and of course they like the way they feel when they're under the influence, why else would they take them? You can say spiritual finding, but the fact is, if they like that, its because they like the feeling that they get while doing it. Same reason why we have sex, masturbate, listen to music, sleep, and play games. Its because we like the way it feels.




I partially agree. But when I use them I don't only do it for the way it feels, if that were the case I would pick a "friendlier" drug. I use them for the personal insight they leave me with afterwards, for the experience that leaves me reflecting on it for days or weeks or even months later, giving me better understanding of life and my inner self. I DEFINATELY agree that anything can be psychologically addictive. TV, computers, books. Like even books are a surrealistic escape for some people. What about sports??? The interesting thing is I could go on for the rest of my life without using again and chances are I wouldn't forget what I've learned. So is my head permanently changed physically? Science hasn't uncovered a chemical explaination for memory or personality has it. It's so brutal that some people can't bring themselves to compare these to alcohol or anything else that society condones. Think about it chemically:

One shot
=1 ounce
=30ml
x40%
=12ml
=12 square cm
=12.0000 grams of alcohol, something we use to disinfect and kill bacteria and other life forms(using water density http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae157.cfm)

compare that to LSD (200ug)

=200ug
=0.0002g of a substance probably far less harmful than nicotinic acid (I heard somewhere that Hofman was researching Lysergic Acid for pharmeceutical similarities to Nicotinic Acid) and in a quantity remarkably and harmlessly small.

0.0002/12
=about 60,000 times more chemical in one shot of alcohol than one session of lsd by weight.

There's something you might consider showing to your friends entityexperiment if the topic comes up again. Sorry to hear that people can be so rudely narrow-minded.


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