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Invisiblepsyka
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Anarchy
    #4724765 - 09/28/05 12:29 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I got into a debate today about anarchy. Personally, I believe it cannot exist and here is the framework for this logic:

1) People depend on each other for survival. This is why social roles (jobs) have always existed.
2) Goods will vary in quality, and workmanship, and so is factored into price and the quantity available (crappy goods are more simple to produce).
3) Retribution and violence is far too hardwired into our minds.

These 3 conditions are what regulates everything in society. You dont want a crappy 1982 Volkswagen, you'd much rather have a brand new Porsche. If a group of ruffians steal your Porsche you'll probably want to seek revenge. This will probably end in gang violence. See the logic? This very simple scenario happens on a wide-scale and culminates to what we call government.

In my personal opinion, it is glaringly obvious that anarchy cannot exist. Or rather, cannot exist for more than a brief moment after turning into communism.

Any supporters of anarchy?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Anarchy [Re: psyka]
    #4724772 - 09/28/05 12:32 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I believe anarchy can exist. I do not believe most people would WANT it to exist however. Most are comfortable in their current social roles and do not wish to have to be responsible for their own security.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Anarchy [Re: daimyo]
    #4724782 - 09/28/05 12:34 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, thats a fair opinion.

Buuuut.... how could an anarchy based system possibly exist?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Offlinekotik
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Re: Anarchy [Re: daimyo]
    #4724787 - 09/28/05 12:36 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

ever heard of "The Selfish Gene?"

all 3 of your points, but more specifically

Quote:

3) Retribution and violence is far too hardwired into our minds.




seems very related.. but also very controversial


--------------------
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I have the heart of a child. I keep it in a jar on my shelf.

No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Anarchy [Re: psyka]
    #4724789 - 09/28/05 12:36 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

What's your definition of anarchy?


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Anarchy [Re: daimyo]
    #4724798 - 09/28/05 12:38 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

The absense of government aka social regulation.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Anarchy [Re: kotik]
    #4724802 - 09/28/05 12:40 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

kotik,

Go live in a cave TOTALLY independant, and see how you appreciate modern living.

The point being, you depend on me to live. However insignificant it may be you still do. And, if I wrong you you will seek revenge, unless of course I'm free to do whatever I want with no consequence? In that, case I'll begin raping and pillaging the masses! Sounds like fun!


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



Edited by psyka (09/28/05 12:41 PM)


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Anarchy [Re: psyka]
    #4724814 - 09/28/05 12:47 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psyka said:
In my personal opinion, it is glaringly obvious that anarchy cannot exist. Or rather, cannot exist for more than a brief moment after turning into communism.





Actually I could see Anarchy devolving into something more along the lines of a dictatorship, where one group would control all the resources to the disadvantage and exploitation of other groups.


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Offlinescribble
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Re: Anarchy [Re: psyka]
    #4724817 - 09/28/05 12:47 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The absense of government aka social regulation.





Is that an absence of all government or all existing government?


--------------------
Mahayana Buddhist tradition tells how Buddha lived on one hemp seed a day.
This was enough to sustain him during the six steps of asceticism leading to his Enlightenment.
In recent centuries, higher doses have been favoured.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Anarchy [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4724868 - 09/28/05 12:58 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

scribble,

"The absense of political authority," which loosely translates into the absense of all authority, altogether.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Anarchy [Re: psyka]
    #4724875 - 09/28/05 01:00 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Anarchy can exist, it is just a matter of how long. Eventually a force will establish itself as dominant and dictate to others. Then more and more people will realize that they would rather have the power than be a part of complete anarchy. A few coups take places and everyone wants more order.


Shouldn't this be in the Politics, Activism, and Law forum?


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Anarchy [Re: daimyo]
    #4724936 - 09/28/05 01:14 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

No. Re-read what you just said.

Its a purely philosophical question. We are doomed to progress, and so anarchy cannot exist; yet it is interesting to note it is our natural state of being.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Offlineqhr0me
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Re: Anarchy [Re: daimyo]
    #4725067 - 09/28/05 01:44 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
What's your definition of anarchy?




new orleans. as good as any.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Anarchy [Re: psyka]
    #4725087 - 09/28/05 01:47 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I'd love to live in an anarcho socialist society, but that is never going to happen. The powerful few already have far too much control over the silent majority for this to ever occur. Always have.


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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: Anarchy [Re: qhr0me]
    #4725096 - 09/28/05 01:49 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

There are lots of places in Africa where anarchy reigns. The product? genocide.

Its been done thousands of times trough history and it always ends in total annihilation.

You think you could make it? think again. Well you could if you are willing to kill for scraps.


--------------------
--------------------
We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Anarchy [Re: psyka]
    #4725206 - 09/28/05 02:14 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I am anarchist.
IMHO, anarchy is only possible if the vast majority of social elements have the same values. Today, such possibility is almost impossible to accomplish.
Anyway, you have to be aware that anarchism has a multitude of concepts. The basis of all the different kinds of anarchism is the end of the state and the end of private property as we know today, also it proposes a higher degree of freedom and a direct democratic system to choose leadership (but not the political kind).

Quote:

Different kinds of Anarchism

There are several different kinds of anarchism, and their beliefs are quite different. In this text I will discuss some of the best known kinds of Anarchism. You will, I am quite sure, find that not all of them share the same views, and in some cases some of the ideas might not even fulfill the traditional definition of Anarchism...

Before I go any further, I would like to briefly introduce the topic, which is quite confusing. There are two terms worth to notice, right anarchism and left anarchism, these are the terms describing different kinds of anarchism, right anarchism mostly based on competition, in opposition to cooperation which is the belief of left anarchists.

Agorism: An anarchist ideology which is supporting a peaceful black market in addition to the normal free market.

Communitarian anarchism: The ideas, founded by Bakunin, relate much to Proudhon's beliefs but are also moving towards collective ideas. Bakunin was seeking a society which was based on cooperation and the fact that the workers owned their workplaces. In this society there would be no body to govern above each cooperation, and everybody in each cooperation would have the same amount of power. This means that although all people had an equal amount of power, the powers of each person was limited.

Anarcho-capitalism: The anarcho-capitalist ideas originate from Gustavo de Molinari, a Belgian economist. The last year of his life, Molinari wrote several essays which all gave the basis for anarcho-capitalism. These ideas are anarchist only in the limited view that they reject government and that they support a free market (in its meaning of a market free of state interference). They support property rights, police and even military force, which is to be used for defense purposes only. Because of this many anarchists do not even accept anarcho-capitalism as a anarchist school. Also known as market anarchism.

Anarcho-communism: "All things for all men, since all men have need of them, since all men worked to produce them in the measure of their strength, and since it is not possible to evaluate everyone's part in production of the world's wealth ... All is for all!" These words were said by Peter Kropotkin, a Russian anarchist who is counted as the founder of the anarcho-communist ideas, they summarize much of the beliefs of the anarcho-communists. The anarcho-communist ideas belong to a group of left-oriented anarchists, meaning that they support cooperation instead of competition.

Anarcho-pacifism: Anarchists and pacifists started to educate each other after the two world-wars, and soon the ideas today known as anarcho-pacifism, nonviolent anarchism or pacifist anarchism were developed. However, it was not before in the 1950's or 60's that the though-minded anarchists and the tender-minded pacifists had their common ideas and beliefs finished: A society with no rulers or classes, where religion (or Christianity) sets the only limits and in which a global government, whose only purpose is to protect the people, rules. These ideas support a limited government, making them much like the minarchist ideals.

Anarcho-syndicalism: Anarcho-syndicalists are in the opinion that the state has two tasks:

* As the fighting organization of the workers against the employers to enforce the demands of the workers for the safeguarding and raising of their standard of living;
* As the school for the intellectual training of the workers to make them acquainted with the technical management of production and economic life in general so that when a revolutionary situation arises they will be capable of taking the socio-economic organism into their own hands and remarking it according to socialist principles.

The anarcho-syndicalists are in opposition of elections, which they argue are just to make it seem that the rulers are working to the best of our interest. No political party, even a socialist one, is fitted to perform any of these two tasks. Further, anarcho-syndicalists share the general anarchist opinions.

Christian Anarchism: Christian anarchism is very similar to Anarcho-communism, or communistic anarchism as it also is called. The difference is that Christian anarchism derives some ideas and doctrines from the Christian Gospel and not philosophers. Leo Tolstoy is granted the founder of the ideas, which he arrived to through his Christian faith.

Eco-anarchism: This idea support small villages, each independent from the others. Some of the supporters of these ideas consider the village the unit of human life in opposition to considering the family such. Eco-anarchists argues that the only purpose of any political system or body should assure the creation of these small villages.

Individualism (Individualist-anarchism): This idea was founded by Stirner, an anarchist who lived in the 19th-century. Stirner, in his ideas, expressed that there is no god, only the individual on his own. The individual works to make everything his property. In individualist-anarchism Stirner expressed a wanting for the abolishment of state, government and laws. He further wanted a society in which everybody would fight for their own good in a battle against everybody else. Alliances would exist, but none would get a chance to develop into a superior group or a state.

Mutualism: Mutualism dates back to P.J. Proudhon, a French anarchist from the time of the French revolution. Mutualists belong to a non-collectivist segment of anarchists. They dream of a society in which the economy is organized around a free market, and production is done by self-employed workers and farmers. Mutualists also belongs to a group of left-oriented anarchists and therefore support cooperation as opposed to competition.

National-Anarchism: The ideas were founded by Troy Southgate, an opponent of the state from South London. Southgate is still alive, and active as a political writer "National-Anarchism essentially transcends the Left-Right spectrum, concluding that both epithets are simply convenient terms for the political establishment. We do not emanate from the Left, as you say, but then neither do we come from the Right. . . . . . . National-Anarchism is also very different to the vast majority of ideological tendencies in that we completely reject the Protestant work-ethic which runs through Western society. Bob Black explains this perfectly: "Curiously - or maybe not - all the old ideologies are conservative because they believe in work. Some of them, like Marxism and most brands of anarchism, believe in work all the more fiercely because they believe in so little else ... Marxists think we should be bossed by bureaucrats. Libertarians think we should be bossed by businessmen. Feminists don't care which form bossing takes so long as the bosses are women. Clearly these ideology-mongers have serious differences over how to divvy up the spoils of power. Just as clearly, none of them have any objection to power as such and all of them want to keep us working." (From The Abolition of Work and Other Essays, Loompanics, 1985, pp. 1-2). Another feature which distinguishes us from the mainstream ?anarchist? movement, is our profound belief in racial separatism. Here in England, National-Anarchists have consistently been labeled ?fascist? by a minority of self-seeking Trotskyists and anarcho-dogmatists." As understood from the above quote, national-anarchists attack other forms of anarchism or revolutionaries as well as the current capitalist system. At the same time, National-Anarchists also support an alliance formation between different revolutionary groups, as they argue this will lead the revolution to go strong, and that after the disappearance of the government, agreement can be made between the different groups. Again, I will quote Southgate: "I think the main thing to stress, however, is that although we are racial scenarists we have no objections to other people founding different communities as long as they allow us to live in peace. And we don't, obviously, have any time whatsoever for racial or white supremacy".

Although I intended to write every section in this article myself, Southgate expressed these ideas so well that I did not see any purpose in rewriting them. The above quote is from a mail he sent me regarding this article.

Another main point of the National-Anarchists is that there are two forms of freedom, national and individual. These are each others pre-conditions: No individual can be free if he belongs to a group of non-free people.




MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Anarchy [Re: psyka]
    #4725577 - 09/28/05 03:44 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psyka said:
The absense of government aka social regulation.



By government, do you mean a state? Because there have been anarchist societies which existed longer than the U.S. Government has been in existence. The lack of a state does not equate to a lack of social order or social regulation. There are in fact a variety of governing systems in human societies, of which the state is one type.


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You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
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Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Anarchy [Re: psyka]
    #4725674 - 09/28/05 04:06 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Anarchy means a lack of hierarchy. That is, no one is in a position to coerce anyone else to do their bidding. As mentioned by others, this does not preclude any social regulation or social order(thus negating your 3 points). In fact, Proudhoun himself once declared "anarchy is order." I am not quite an anarchist, as I have my doubts as to the feasibility of such a system within modern society, but I am sympathetic to the cause.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Anarchy [Re: Silversoul]
    #4725877 - 09/28/05 04:48 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

kotik,

Go live in a cave TOTALLY independant, and see how you appreciate modern living.




how about a self-made home in the woods for 3 months, with no other people around, forced to eat only what you can hunt or pick.

above anything else, it helps you understand that people are alien, and we can do just fine without other people.

Thats neither for nor against anarchy, but I could honestly say that humans are pretty much the only animals with this "revenge" you speak of. And better yet, its most likely a learned thing, not some innate form of evil.


--------------------
music: myspace.com/soundscientists
.
I have the heart of a child. I keep it in a jar on my shelf.

No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Anarchy [Re: MAIA]
    #4726084 - 09/28/05 05:54 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

To those arguing in favor of anarchy.

I have a plausible scenario to ask.
How would you eat? How would you produce food? How would you obtain the equipment made to create this food? How would you distribute the food equally? What about in times of drought or other difficulties obtaining food?

I'm just saying there are so many variables unaccounted for, you cant possibly have any sort of damage control with anarchy. It would just lead to chaos and disorder. Its too much freedom for the average Joe.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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