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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Anarchy [Re: looner2]
#4738130 - 09/30/05 06:25 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
looner2 said: I am the utopian dream crusher!
Dream on! If you were the big alpha male you would like us to believe you are, you would be gathering your armies with the big boys right now.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
looner2 said: I am the utopian dream crusher!
Dream on! If you were the big alpha male you would like us to believe you are, you would be gathering your armies with the big boys right now.
When my balls drop I'll be so on that.
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Anarchy [Re: looner2]
#4738204 - 09/30/05 06:37 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
looner2 said: The problem with anarchy is that it assumes the absolute best conduct from all of humanity. It denies and contradicts human nature. For that, it is beyond reasonable... it is ridiculous.
Perhaps the form of anarchism which bukkake advocates(which could best be described as anarcho-communism) assumes the best conduct of humanity, but not every anarchist ideology does. I find mutualism to be a far more realistic vision of an anarchist society. It allows for a free market and free association, as well as a monetary system, and thus does not require equality(at least in the sense of equal results -- it certainly provides for more equal opportunity).
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Anarchy [Re: looner2]
#4738231 - 09/30/05 06:44 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Quote:
Paradigm said:
Quote:
looner2 said: The problem with anarchy is that it assumes the absolute best conduct from all of humanity. It denies and contradicts human nature. For that, it is beyond reasonable... it is ridiculous.
Perhaps the form of anarchism which bukkake advocates(which could best be described as anarcho-communism) assumes the best conduct of humanity, but not every anarchist ideology does. I find mutualism to be a far more realistic vision of an anarchist society. It allows for a free market and free association, as well as a monetary system, and thus does not require equality(at least in the sense of equal results -- it certainly provides for more equal opportunity).
How would that economic principle stop me from gathering an army and beginning a conquest?
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Anarchy [Re: looner2]
#4738427 - 09/30/05 07:30 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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It wouldn't, but your conquest would be a failure if you couldn't win over the vast majority of people through persuasion.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Anarchy [Re: looner2]
#4738439 - 09/30/05 07:33 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The problem with anarchy is that it assumes the absolute best conduct from all of humanity. It denies and contradicts human nature. For that, it is beyond reasonable... it is ridiculous.
Looner is correct. Anarchy must wait for a possible future evolution of humanity. Not likely in my estimation. Although you can practice it in a limited way in your personal life. That is good enough for me.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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bukkake
Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
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Quote:
Icelander said: Looner is correct. Anarchy must wait for a possible future evolution of humanity. Not likely in my estimation. Although you can practice it in a limited way in your personal life. That is good enough for me.
But if that is correct, why aren't you and I amassing armies to take over our countries and the world in general? Why do we do what we're currently doing now? If we're lusting to be #1 and whatnot.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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The most fundamental aspect of human nature is social adaptability and conformity. All it would take for anarchy to succeed is the proper cultural context.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Anarchy [Re: bukkake]
#4738496 - 09/30/05 07:45 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Because we are the second part of my statement. Most people are not. They can't be in charge of their lives in a responsible way. They need some dickheaded leader to tell them what to think and do. Sad but true.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
Icelander said: Because we are the second part of my statement. Most people are not. They can't be in charge of their lives in a responsible way. They need some dickheaded leader to tell them what to think and do. Sad but true.
No, they don't need a leader to tell them what to think or do. They need society to do that. Society does not require a leader to set such social boundaries.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Society/leader leader/society. What's the difference? We have both now and I don't see anarchy working anywhere.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
Icelander said: Society/leader leader/society. What's the difference?
An individual vs. a collective? Social norms need not be enforced violently. The will of an individual usually does.
Quote:
We have both now and I don't see anarchy working anywhere.
It worked quite well for the Iroquois, and it continues to work well for the !Kung.
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bukkake
Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
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We believe it's good enough. To be fucked over on a daily basis, because if we did something about it we know what would happen. We'd be smashed to pieces. But no one really likes to be fucked over on a daily basis. We don't like to be told what to do, commanded, fit a guideline which betrays what we truly want to do, regardless of the "law" we're told is righteous and universal. Because it's not inherent to obey or be told what to do by someone else. We aren't born into the "Masters Vs. Workers" unwritten law we must follow, where jealousy and bloodthirsty greed fester.
Are any of you murdering, thieving crooks? Most of you are not. You want to live your life, free, without harm of anyone else. When you see a bum on the street who asks you for money, do you kick him in the face or do you decline to give him money? The answer by most of you is the latter and the reason you don't do this is because you must look after yourself in the system you've been brought up in. The $5 which come from your pocket, deviated out of the system we're TOLD(this is not inherent) to follow, of course means that those $5 are stripped of you. Those $5 that would have otherwise been contributed to your necessities, your family, your well-being. And of course this is selfishness, but this sort of selfishness is not unjustifiable under the system we've been born into to follow.
My digression with history that tells of chaos and humanity's selfishness is that I believe all humans are inherently good, but the perverse system we've been born into that tells of otherwise. So, we are not naturally truly lusting of chaos and superiority, but rather that we are born into that one-ups mans-ship worldly view. I justify holding this view because of how much about history we truly do not know. No one knows how old the world is, how long it was until one knew how to write, to record history. And how much of history prior to this is simply unrecorded? Who is to say the very first humans didn't believe in egalitarianism, in bettering their fellow man, to keep human existence? Why didn't they just murder one another and declare themselves the sole survivor? If superiority was our goal, wouldn't that make sense of our ancestors?
I tried to make this shorter, but I couldn't without expressing all I needed to say.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Quote:
Paradigm said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Society/leader leader/society. What's the difference?
An individual vs. a collective? Social norms need not be enforced violently. The will of an individual usually does.
Quote:
We have both now and I don't see anarchy working anywhere.
It worked quite well for the Iroquois, and it continues to work well for the !Kung.
Well IMO the violence of socitey is subversive. You get programmed by society to follow the code created by leadership.
The Iroquois sadly are gone. They were over powered by an agressor. The Kung are small and could easily go that way.
Don't get me wrong. I want anarchy for myself. Just let me know when America or any other first world country adopts it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Anarchy [Re: bukkake]
#4738585 - 09/30/05 08:11 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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We must remember that it's in the state's best interest to make us believe we can't exist without the state. The majority of human history tells us otherwise.
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bukkake
Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
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Oh, of course. The elite few love our current living conditions. They love the laws we have in place, the enormous income disparity. The inequality is glorious. Why wouldn't they love it? We're killing and robbing one another, while they live lavishly and tell us what we can and cannot do with our own bodies. How smoking marijuana and taking psilocybin is an evil and jailable offense, but they and their relatives can shove their dick into the "legal system's" asshole by hiring an overpriced lawyer and getting off free of any such crime.
It is no coincidence that the numero uno crime in our country is larceny. That's because we live under capitalism. We need money. We lust for what we need.
If I were to hypothetically acknowledge that we all love power and war, naturally, why isn't murder or rape or assault one of the number one crimes? Why is theft? Stealing what one has.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: Anarchy [Re: bukkake]
#4740030 - 10/01/05 03:30 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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"We are an anarcho-syndicate commune, which means we take turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week who passes laws which must be ratified by every bi-weekly metting and in the case of pure internal affairs, by a 2/3rds majority"
-Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life"
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trunksan
PsyChicken
Registered: 02/04/03
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I've discussed the isse several times with a couple of frieds of mine and we came to the conclusion that anarchy can easily exist in a small community like a small village or town where a social bond exists between its members, because this social bond would prevent people from screwing each other. There could be a free market, which wouldn't be regulated of course but it would be fair. In a way anarchy can exist when there's lack of selfishness and respect for your fellow beings.
That mutualist article is very interesting!!!
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