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. Registered: 06/03/13 Posts: 2,322 Loc: Black Flag |
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Quote: By whom would thse stucturest, insruments, and laws be erased? Quote: Via what resource/ Or in pursuit of what specific resource? How would formation even begin at the slightest level with all previous structure having been "erased"? Quote: Is this evident by CIA funded/trained coups or civil unrest in nations throughout Africa, Eastern Europe, South America, and SE Asia? Sure if Government decides the regions resources are a valuable asset that needs to be accommodated for, blood will needlessly be shed for IMF interests. This is besides the point: where is your evidence? Quote: And when self-defense is a human right, a bad apple trying to infect another is promptly eliminated and incinerated. Problem solved. -------------------- dead man walking
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Stranger Registered: 03/14/04 Posts: 4,828 |
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Quote: anybody who wants to master anything must apply a lot of focused effort. even surfers who don't punch a time clock spend all day exercising, after all their lives are at stake, when they go for the big ones... just try attending a martial arts class, or violin class and telling the teacher your into anarchy today! seems generally speaking anarchy is a fantasy, self indulgent teenagers are prone to. the difference between surfers and many others is that they like what they do. That's where true freedom is. The passion they have, for the activity, is a stronger motivator than any distraction, or supposed other freedom. That's the paradox, freedom is found in giving it up. Nobody on this forum would be alive if their mother hadn't given up a lot of freedom. Some might say: between tyranny and anarchy is spontaneity, they are all different, and it's a mistake to confuse the last two. In Jazz they call 'spontaneity' 'improvisation'. But the roots are African drumming whose foundation is obviously order. And in western music one starts by practicing the scales, not by telling the teacher you're into anarchy toady! Apparently many are so freaked out by injustice, they want to throw out the baby with the bath water. The French revolution sure benefited the executioners, and guillotine manufacturers, but few learn from history. No complex process in nature can maintain itself, as an identifiable entity ( or separately identifiable process), without rules.
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Stranger Registered: 03/14/04 Posts: 4,828 |
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Quote: From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An Antoine-Laurent de Lavoisier (also Antoine Lavoisier after the French Revolution; He is widely considered in popular literature as the "father of modern chemistry”….. It is generally accepted that Lavoisier's great accomplishments in chemistry largely stem from his changing the science from a qualitative to a quantitative one. … He was branded a traitor by the Convention under Maximilien de Robespierre during the Reign of Terror in 1794. … Lavoisier was tried, convicted, and guillotined on 8 May 1794 in Paris, at the age of 50, along with his 27 co-defendants. A year and a half after his death, Lavoisier was exonerated by the French government. During the White Terror, his private belongings were delivered to his widow, a brief note was included, reading "To the widow of Lavoisier, who was falsely convicted".
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Outer Head Registered: 12/06/13 Posts: 9,819 |
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Quote: I don't know, it seems what we are discussing is mostly hypothetical. Perhaps that is another indicator that anarchy is implausible. Quote:Quote: Well, any resource, take water. Or electricity. How would one socialize it in an anarchic society? At what level of population size do you run into problems? Etc. Quote:Quote: Well, once again, it's evident as a hypothetical. But the toppling of governments for regime change, which as you say has been repeatedly carried out by the CIA, could give some indication of the general process involved -- in a certain way. But that raises an interesting question: How does one go about instituting an anarchic society? That seems to be an oxymoron. On the one hand, there are successful small communes in places, but I think there would be a crunch at a certain population size, and at a certain level of complexity of the society. Quote:Quote: Not always. In fact, it's often not the case. -------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Outer Head Registered: 12/06/13 Posts: 9,819 |
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Quote: -------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Stranger Registered: 12/23/08 Posts: 8,292 Loc: Manchester, UK Last seen: 4 years, 7 months |
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so if a leader/authority tells you to do something you just do it unquestioningly?
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. Registered: 06/03/13 Posts: 2,322 Loc: Black Flag |
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Quote: Freedom is not rationally comparable to a voluntarily chosen risk/benefit ratio without institutional aggression of unchangeable fluctuations of the natural, phsyical world. An experienced surfer riding an amateur's dangerous wave may make money or be the subject of via viral footage from a GoPro, or a cinematographer on the beach, or to simply make the independent choice of setting themselves high aspirations. This isn't a sacrifice of freedom, it is freedom in the form of self-determination. Did my mother give up freedom in having me? No, she expressed freedom through her choice and pursuit of having a male child. The ability to equate this to giving up freedom (except in instances of pregnancy as a result of sexual assault) is contradictory, as we look at oppressive governments wtih mandated population control for "the greater good." I've had guns in my face, been shot at and returned fire, hung off of 1000 foot cliff drops, and snowboarded off trail weaving between thick tree trunks and and sharp branches at 60 degree inclines, nearly died from dehydration, and knocked up three gang-bangers trying to steal my camera equipment (one of them mere seconds from drawing a MAC-10) with a walking stick I had learned to use defensively via staff-based Tae Kwon Do training, and had my back split open all the way down the center to stop my chest cavity from collapsing on itself. All of it due to an an active goal of seeking health, freedom, and the best photo opportunities I could. I was formerly a famous anarchist blogger, but tested the scope of government surveillance (I suspected was ongoing due to IP activity on a certain blog - that for all intensive purposes and due to lack of evidence has no relation to me - and infiltration of the online community I had joined. For journalistic purposes by alluding to LEOs would endanger themselves (though I never implied physical danger, but political and socioeconomic consequences was the result of their mistakes) through a vague blog post, I was SWATed with no evidence of any crime on site within twenty minutes, and after outnegotiating the negotiator, I had him replaced with one that local PD had been ordered to monitor a blog 'associated with me' by an unnamed intelligence agency. I had set up surveillance systems beforehand, and have multiple copies of audio recordings of the conversation , as well as recording of radio conversation afterwards and photos/videos of illegal surveillance of my residence afterwards. From the barricades I set up in those twenty minutes, upon my "surrender" to gain intel from the inexperienced negotiator about the extend of surveillance on "me" despite their being no evidence that I was the person they were performing surveillance on, I was actually complimented by a SWAT member saying I would do well as a Navy SEAL. I got an obsessive detective suspended without paid leave with this info,and a rather long-term restraining order against this police department as a result of the evidence I gathered, pictures of me shaking hands and videos of me speaking to and finding shared opinions with State Supreme court justices (one of which is libertarian and put me in touch with my now go-to law firm), pictures of me being certified as an Eagle Scout, transcripts detailing high performance during my time in college thus far, IQ test results from a psychiatrist, with with promises that this info would go public via my connections to media outlets (who have been wanting the details for months, but it's all about timing) as soon as the restraining order is lifted and/or the detective is placed on active duty again. I have put myself in danger, but have not sacrificed security because I knew what I was doing, nor sacrificed freedom because I know my capabilities and goals. All in all, I sacrificed security for the sake of freedom. If my barricades were not set up in a manner that would have resulted in a a full-blown siege for access to my residence at the time, my weapons (all legally owned) had not been locked in a proper locker, I could have been easily killed in the SWAT raid. But I wasn't, nor were many of these surfers, nor was my mother in in her active decision to give birth to me. And by my standards, the desire to birth a baby out of one's free will and raise them is an act of independence. Would you imply that motherhood is by default a loss of liberty? So, in my experience, if you are proficient in the area that the security risk is taken, you can easily gain freedom by taking the risk. Successful entrepreneurs do the same thing, but with financial gain. This is my argument against sacrificing freedom for safety. I set up a booby-trap alarm system on this 'associated' old blog's URL, and noted that the same PD would attempt to access an erased URL from their servers every couple of months. Did some heavy tracing through the server that was trying to access this erased info via a network of modified routers and multiple VPNs via internet access points that place my IP in several places at once, and discovered it to be the stalker detective. All this info is available on certain secure clouds, as well as CDs/flash drives placed among trusted friends and family, in case his suspension comes to an end, and/or the restraining end earlier than agreed upon.. And in the time since then, I have had photos featured in local papers, online publications, received interviews and awards, and googling my actual name and paid background checks results in nothing but absolute cleanliness, compliments from others in my professional network as well as former associates within an international corporation I was formerly employed by that is worth nearly 10% of the US national debt, along with credits in a variety of publications, and interviews that portrayed me as I am, an excellent photographer and journalist/writer with close ties to family, charity, nature, and efforts towards international equity. All without any official record besides the records I control and complaints to PD about harassment, a civil case settled out of court that resulted me as being untouchable, as well as the city's police chief suspending this ex-detective from the force. As far as "rules" go, see Natural Law and Natural Rights. These would exist with or without a government. A person who commits aggression against another would be met with self-defense, or in failure of self-defense, retaliation by those apposed to unwarranted aggression. This happens no matter what level of government is present or not. The most active forms of freedom under subjugation are born through methodical planning to safely sacrifice what many of you view as "security". As far as comparing a relatively minor art form to need for order, it is silly to compare an industry dominated by an institution that is mainly]comprised of monopoly/strict control on this form of expression.Technique is not restriction. In fact, some of the most well-studied musicians in theory create some of the most "chaotic" sounding music that is actually guided by extremely well practiced technique.. What you view as anarchy, I experience as the strategic place as my guaranteed invulnerability from governing entities, and if/when that runs out, major media stories about injustice committed by law enforcement against a automatic-victim persona.
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Stranger Registered: 03/14/04 Posts: 4,828 |
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“Freedom is not rationally comparable to a voluntarily chosen risk/benefit ratio without institutional aggression of unchangeable fluctuations of the natural, phsyical world.”
thats a challenging sentence this phrase: ‘without institutional aggression’ assumes “ ’god’ knows what” probably anything the government does that you don’t like. “amateur's dangerous wave”another dumb assumption ‘Did my mother give up freedom in having me?’ i don’t know your mom but i can tell you, washing diapers (i go back a ways) is not the same as talking anarchy to hippie chicks at a party ‘No, she expressed freedom through her choice and pursuit of having a male child. ‘sounds like you are proud your mom wanted a boy’ of all the dumb things to be proud of.. “The ability to equate this to giving up freedom (except in instances of pregnancy as a result of sexual assault) is contradictory, as we look at oppressive governments wtih mandated population control for "the greater good.”- - - - -say what !! you think the world needs more people???? “I’ve had guns in my face, been shot at and returned fire, hung off of 1000 foot cliff drops, and snowboarded off trail weaving between thick tree trunks and and sharp branches at 60 degree inclines, nearly died from dehydration, and knocked up three gang-bangers trying to steal my camera equipment (one of them mere seconds from drawing a MAC-10) with a walking stick I had learned to use defensively via staff-based Tae Kwon Do training, and had my back split open all the way down the center to stop my chest cavity from collapsing on itself. “ you and John wayne —so f**ing what? you whole attitude is that being macho frees you from whatever you view as restrictive… but with that attitude you will never be free of ‘self’… which would be the expected attitude most anywhere, but on a forum that dabbles in mind expansion and freedom from ego and self, it comes across as somewhat silly. there are certainly many who share your sort of views—like preppers and many gun owners, —but amusingly such folks are as concerned with security, as you are to thumb your nose at it…
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Stranger Registered: 03/14/04 Posts: 4,828 |
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Quote: so you too, stoop to straw man arguments, when you think people don't follow you and your views ?? and fail to see the irony? too funny!! by the way 'anarchy' is not a synonym for 'taking intelligent counter measures in response to a specific threat' if i wanted to follow your style here i would ask you if you think all chemists should be guillotine silly isn't it? I thought the video you posted in the war and peace thread was a very interesting look back in history, of course it's so disturbing one can only absorb so much at one time. May watch more later. I took specific efforts to not have academic deferment, (in the '60s) be 4F, (probably before your time), and not go to Vietnam, as it was clear to me that all military training is fundamentally about being conditioned to kill upon being give the order to do so. If or whenever i kill it will be my choice, not someone else's. Why else have human consciousness? Edited by laughingdog (09/15/16 06:07 PM)
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. Registered: 06/03/13 Posts: 2,322 Loc: Black Flag |
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Quote: Not shocked that you feel that way. Quote: I don't like anything the government does, because government is defined by aggression. That is the basis of the ideology I am defending from your current desperate use of ad hominems. Quote: Have you been surfing? Sandboarding? Snowboarding? If you live in the Midwest we can meet up at the largest resort in the region and I'll go off trail from a double black diamond, evade upright and even use fallen trees to my advantage to gain momentum on the ice over them, and jump over an eight foot drop onto dirt with enough speed to keep carve down back the double black after sliding on dirt. You? You'll probably take the gondola and wait for me to teach you how to push with your back leg at the bunny hill. There's a reason amateurs die when they bite more than they can chew, and why other winter sport enthusiasts yell "HOLY SHIT" when they see how I handle myself from the lifts above. I can bet that I can handle white caps below 8 meters while you're boogie boarding along to the shoreline with the current, and I haven't been surfing a dozen times. But I have the balance and physical adeptness to at least stay on a board at those sizes. I've been snowboarding since I was eight. For 14 years. The difference between you and I is that I have the confidence to rely on myself. You aren't even capable of confidence in the proficient, so you use a falsely assumed lack of proficiency to attack the opinion of others. The only reason not to believe that someone who obviously knows the topic like they know how write about it in detail is that you have no belief in yourself. That isn't ad hominem, it's truth. We're in a subthread that involves psychology. Quote: Well that's convenient for you, she would see straight through your deflective ass and remind you that acting on your own is better than waiting for a bureaucrat to pay for decent disposable diapers that you might be able to work hard enough to afford. Quote: Neat strawman. I practice my philosophy through education, agitation, and action, and I don't go to parties besides family parties and NYE anymore. I don't enjoy being around drunks who are constantly humiliated by the stupid shit they did the night of, or are embarrassed about kind things they said the night of. No point in shame of your expression, it's the equivalent of being glad for your deceit. Quote: My mother wanted a daughter and a son. She had the daughter, then she had the son. My older sibling that I referred to as 'daughter' is genderqueer. I was born with male genitals and am comfortable with them, and find no distaste in (non-hyper)masculinity nor in femininity. I don't care if anyone refers to me as he, she, they, etc. It's arbitrary. I find sexuality to be arbitrary too. I'm proud that I have grown up to be a son that my mother is proud of. If you think that's silly, you've got issues. Quote: Sure it does. We are consuming resources at a faster rate than ever, more people who grow up with the intelligence of the modern age can and will find ways to accommodate for limited resources on this planet. Perhaps through agricultural breakthroughs, or deep-sea or astronomical steps in science. The implication that you believe an unspecified percentage of human beings are "undesirable" would be terrifying if you were capable of setting it into a course of action. Quote: Since when does ego contradict with legitimate knowledge, talent and experience by an individual? Why bring up or claim to know the overarching theme of a forum? We are talking about government vs anarchy, and I'm telling you the reality that I don't need your precious power structure to protect me. They've never protected me before. I have protected myself more times than anyone else has, and the people who otherwise have did not work for the government. They were normal human beings with the capacity for empathy. Quote: As stated before, I'm concerned with security, which is why I'm a survivor, not a beggar. If you're going to debate on behalf of rhetorical nonsense, take a class or three first.
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. Registered: 06/03/13 Posts: 2,322 Loc: Black Flag |
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Quote: Well, at least we agree on something.
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Outer Head Registered: 12/06/13 Posts: 9,819 |
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Quote: Well aren't we hot shit. Lol I guessed you were 22 and there it is. Haha -------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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. Registered: 06/03/13 Posts: 2,322 Loc: Black Flag |
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Quote: Good. You can perform basic mathematics Is this relevant? I very likely make more money than you, depend less on other people than you, provide more for other people than you, and if I had a kid I would go buy some nice disposable diapers for them, rather than "rewashing" them. Is that how you were raised? And why you type from wherever you're sitting like you've had a miserable rash on your ass since you were an infant?
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Outer Head Registered: 12/06/13 Posts: 9,819 |
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All right dude, knock it off before a line gets crossed, please.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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. Registered: 06/03/13 Posts: 2,322 Loc: Black Flag |
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Quote: Don't you mean BORDER?? And also, sorry, am I beginning to break forum rules? Nah but okay. We can agree to disagree, and live completely different lifestyles in different regions. I might not like yours, and you might not like mine, but that's okay. We probably have more in common than either of us think We're both on the Shroomery, which makes us a huge statically oulier. For what it's worth, I enjoyed the debate, and thought of the little jabs to be playful. You started the thread asking a question, and I answered with what I believed until it was clearly going nowhere, hence the jabs. You want control, and I don't want or need it, you can't exert it over me, and I won't let what I believe to be corrupt government influence me tot the extent that I'm capable of reducing influence. Anyways, sorry if I really offended you. You seem like a decent fellow, leaving out the heated part of the debate, so with the chances of us running into each other again and disagreeing on fundamental philosophy, perhaps we just keep it civil. Anyways, I did enjoy the debate. The best way to improve praxis is by having holes poked in it. See you around, dude, and for what it's worth I'll give you a good rating for initiating and engaging in such a discussion, but knowing when to end it when it was no longer going anywhere. Peace.
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Outer Head Registered: 12/06/13 Posts: 9,819 |
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Very civilly done.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Human being Registered: 07/22/16 Posts: 330 Loc: Santa Barbara Ca Last seen: 7 years, 1 month |
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Quote: If humanity worked, there would be less of us. -------------------- You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want. People that do not want what they need, have a problem. Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?
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Outer Head Registered: 12/06/13 Posts: 9,819 |
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I absolutely have to agree with that.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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. Registered: 06/03/13 Posts: 2,322 Loc: Black Flag |
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Quote: Read my rating of you and you'll get it
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Outer Head Registered: 12/06/13 Posts: 9,819 |
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Thanks man.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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