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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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anarchy
    #23642274 - 09/13/16 05:06 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Contrary to what some believe, anarchy would not work, nor would it be desirable.  As soon as you have an anarchic state, you're going to have individuals and groups swoop in to fill the latent power vacuum.  No matter what, in every civilized society, one group has power over others at any given time.  So the goal should not be an impossible anarchy, but setting up the most humane and effective government that we can.

I know we're all fed up with government, but is there really any alternative?  Too much 'law and order' can be oppressive, but there is probably such a thing as not enough, no?


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: anarchy [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23642357 - 09/13/16 05:31 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

well in favor of your position is the looting that takes place during a police strike (think it happened in Canada long ago)

of course you are assuming, I imagine, what might happen in the present world?

Oddly I think the iching talks a lot about structure in society, and sees the well run family, as a model for the state. Certainly families with spoiled children show the necessity, of structure, discipline, and responsibility.

Of course the smaller the group (hunter gatherers) the less bullshit one needs, like: police, lawyers, taxes, judges, etc.

Many stories of the world after a nuclear war explore how such issues might play out.

You could also use other aspects of biology as a model, (besides the family unit), you could use information processing in the brain, or the self organizing behavior of ants or Conway's "game of life" ( a computer model), and so on ...

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: anarchy [Re: laughingdog]
    #23642488 - 09/13/16 06:15 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Nice post.

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Of course the smaller the group (hunter gatherers) the less bullshit one needs, like: police, lawyers, taxes, judges, etc.




Yes, I confine these notions to civilizations.  Outside of civilization, things are clearly different.


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: anarchy [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23642506 - 09/13/16 06:19 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

No Gods, No masters:
As all relationships are voluntary and egalitarian, there is no power vacuum. The situation you describe where warlords swoop
in to fill the top of the hierarchical structure of violent dominance is a description of our current system.

It can work, it has worked:
Paris Commune, Magonista Baja California, Free Territory of Ukraine, Anarchist Catalonia


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: anarchy [Re: Crumist]
    #23642568 - 09/13/16 06:37 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
No Gods, No masters:
As all relationships are voluntary and egalitarian, there is no power vacuum. The situation you describe where warlords swoop
in to fill the top of the hierarchical structure of violent dominance is a description of our current system.

It can work, it has worked:
Paris Commune, Magonista Baja California, Free Territory of Ukraine, Anarchist Catalonia




Those experiments are, I'm sure, very small, and relatively short-lived compared to larger societies.  How can you stave off imbalance over time?  Who controls the resources?  Somebody has to administer them somehow.  What form of economy is there?  A true egalitarian society can only exist among hunter-gatherers.  Once you introduce all of the complex variables of civilization, eventually imbalances develop and develop hard.  I very much doubt those communes will be in existence for thousands of years.

Hierarchy is the entire point.  Civilization is hierarchical, no matter how you administer it.  You could create a commune to level it into an egalitarian structure, but over time there will be cracks.  And I'm not talking a long time.  Most of the communes of the sixties failed miserably because we simply haven't established a workable utopia yet, and mostly cannot even get them to work in miniature.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: anarchy [Re: Crumist] * 1
    #23642611 - 09/13/16 06:50 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

it is doubtful that either anarchy or a structure are a guarantee of anything by themselves.

However even something, free of politics, like say a large science lab, must have all sorts of heierarchy if it wants meaningful results.

All the communes and so on are interesting I'm sure, but their very rarity would, tend to support DQ's outlook.

Take the Somlai pirates that attack shipping, without some surrounding structure, things eventually seem to go badly.

Perhaps the simplest example of the failure of anarchy generally speaking is music vs noise.

of course some music isn't much better ...

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OfflineCrumist
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Re: anarchy [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23642681 - 09/13/16 07:06 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

If we restrict our debate to civilization:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:Yes, I confine these notions to civilizations.  Outside of civilization, things are clearly different.


And then define civilization as hierarchical
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:Hierarchy is the entire point.  Civilization is hierarchical, no matter how you administer it.


. Therefore: anarchy is not civilizationoutside the bounds of discussion :wow:.
Your logic is airtight, but circular. I think there is a manner of attacking both premises. Why restrict to civilization? Why must civilization be hierarchical?

I don't understand how the music analogy proves anything. Entropy always rises in the universe, therefore anarchy is truth?


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704

Edited by Crumist (09/13/16 07:10 PM)

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: anarchy [Re: Crumist]
    #23642724 - 09/13/16 07:22 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
If we restrict our debate to civilization:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:Yes, I confine these notions to civilizations.  Outside of civilization, things are clearly different.


And then define civilization as hierarchical
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:Hierarchy is the entire point.  Civilization is hierarchical, no matter how you administer it.


. Therefore: anarchy is not civilizationoutside the bounds of discussion :wow:.
Your logic is airtight, but circular. I think there is a manner of attacking both premises. Why restrict to civilization? Why must civilization be hierarchical?

I don't understand how the music analogy proves anything. Entropy always rises in the universe, therefore anarchy is truth?




But are communes really outside of civilization?  I mean, I think their physical contact sort of disqualifies them.  We live on a planet now in which egalitarianism is extremely rare (and precious), but it's slowly succumbing, and it's not viable to generate it en masse, anyway.  Anarchy is not at all outside the bounds of discussion in the context of civilization, if for no other reason than that it is geographically surrounded by it.  Even if true, long-term egalitarian relations were in place, don't you think the bulldozers would eventually come?

One doesn't have to restrict hierarchy to civilization.  All civilizations that have ever existed have been hierarchical.  It's an anthropological rule.  It usually comes in the form of control of resources, then spreads from there to other things, like the clergy, for example.  Hell, there were even some hunter-gatherer tribes that were hierarchical.  It just wants to burst through.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: anarchy [Re: Crumist]
    #23642758 - 09/13/16 07:35 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:

It can work, it has worked:
Paris Commune, Magonista Baja California, Free Territory of Ukraine, Anarchist Catalonia




apparently you have studied these things. How large were the groups? and how anarchic were they?

The idea of being free of structure is of course attractive. But on say, a submarine , it's nice if folks take their jobs seriously whether they like them or not, on Sunday morning. Same in an operating room etc. etc.

the very language we are using in this thread depends on strict rules to convey intelligible meaning. I imagine the folks in the places you mention didn't give up grammar and talk like BrendanFlock's posts, just so they could be '100% anarchic'.

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OfflineChristopherABrown
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Re: anarchy [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23643277 - 09/13/16 10:37 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Contrary to what some believe, anarchy would not work, nor would it be desirable.  As soon as you have an anarchic state, you're going to have individuals and groups swoop in to fill the latent power vacuum.  No matter what, in every civilized society, one group has power over others at any given time.  So the goal should not be an impossible anarchy, but setting up the most humane and effective government that we can.

I know we're all fed up with government, but is there really any alternative?  Too much 'law and order' can be oppressive, but there is probably such a thing as not enough, no?




I agree with all of that, but would point out that the type and function of anarchy can radically change with education.  For example.  If a people know everything there is to know about needs, and do not place needs over wants, the structures you point out that develop by default, end up with different natures.


--------------------
You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want.

People that do not want what they need, have a problem.

Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?

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Offlinebeforethedawn
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Re: anarchy [Re: ChristopherABrown]
    #23643384 - 09/13/16 11:21 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Sort of a discussion also of human nature, isn't it? What are we really? How are we supposed to be?

If we are essentially perfect then we don't need governments. What is making us otherwise? Governing our lives - socially, materially, psychologically.


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Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?

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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: anarchy [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23643522 - 09/14/16 12:12 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

The argument that a regional event of anarchy would lead to a power vacuum that would replaced with some other form of governing hierarchy is self-defeating. If anarchy functions (by whatever standard anyone may place on functionality) before intervention by such an institution or group, then anarchy does work, and government is the failure, not anarchy itself.
Try to observe not anarchy as the vacuum, but government. What anarchist group/event has committed genocide, dropped nukes, inflated currency, stole people's labour via taxation, halted innovation via regulation, and eliminated the human right to free travel via borders? One might use the Red Death during the Spanish Civil War to argue this, but George Orwell himself has stated that these mass-murders were directed and conducted by KGB agents that had infiltrated the resistance against Franco.

If any such societal vacuum does exist, it exists in the form of governing institutions, and aggressive militant groups.

It may be informative to take a look at the modern political structure of West Kurdistan as an example of anarchy/left libertarianism's success despite overwhelming odds and the negative impact of foreign nations' intervention in the region. On a basis of ratios, the Kurds are defending themselves from ISIS more successfully than the governments of Iraq and Syria, while maintaining a significantly more equitable society. Perhaps it will not last due to the intervention of these various violent governments (some of which have been trying to literally exterminate the Kurds for centuries), but the fact that it has lasted this long while maintaining autonomy and very loose centralization is a point of significance.

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Offlineblingbling
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Re: anarchy [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23643815 - 09/14/16 04:48 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I know we're all fed up with government, but is there really any alternative?

Free market capitalism is an alternative, but probably not a very good one if there is no government to supply necessary services like criminal justice or health care. Of course you could just privatise these services, but then what happens if their is a prison bubble in the economy and all the prisons fail, do we just let all the rapists and murders free? A mixed economy is a far better way to manage services.


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Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: anarchy [Re: HalfLight]
    #23644158 - 09/14/16 09:22 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

HalfLight said:
The argument that a regional event of anarchy would lead to a power vacuum that would replaced with some other form of governing hierarchy is self-defeating. If anarchy functions (by whatever standard anyone may place on functionality) before intervention by such an institution or group, then anarchy does work, and government is the failure, not anarchy itself.
Try to observe not anarchy as the vacuum, but government. What anarchist group/event has committed genocide, dropped nukes, inflated currency, stole people's labour via taxation, halted innovation via regulation, and eliminated the human right to free travel via borders? One might use the Red Death during the Spanish Civil War to argue this, but George Orwell himself has stated that these mass-murders were directed and conducted by KGB agents that had infiltrated the resistance against Franco.

If any such societal vacuum does exist, it exists in the form of governing institutions, and aggressive militant groups.

It may be informative to take a look at the modern political structure of West Kurdistan as an example of anarchy/left libertarianism's success despite overwhelming odds and the negative impact of foreign nations' intervention in the region. On a basis of ratios, the Kurds are defending themselves from ISIS more successfully than the governments of Iraq and Syria, while maintaining a significantly more equitable society. Perhaps it will not last due to the intervention of these various violent governments (some of which have been trying to literally exterminate the Kurds for centuries), but the fact that it has lasted this long while maintaining autonomy and very loose centralization is a point of significance.




I dunno, I guess I'm of the opinion that, nine times out of ten, if there is an opportunity for an aspiring party or group to assume a power role over others -- if there is that opportunity -- it will be taken.  I'm afraid I don't follow your notion that government exists as a vacuum.  Over the long term, power structures will emerge in any civilized society.  The Kurds are a fine example of what can happen, but as you say, it's a very precarious situation and likely to fall apart.  And that's just what I'm talking about.

Humans being humans, if influence or power over others can be taken, it will be assumed by someone.  That is true throughout history.  I don't believe humans are evolved enough at this point to make intentional communities, or new egalitarian societies, work on a meaningful scale.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: anarchy [Re: beforethedawn]
    #23644162 - 09/14/16 09:23 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

beforethedawn said:
Sort of a discussion also of human nature, isn't it? What are we really? How are we supposed to be?

If we are essentially perfect then we don't need governments. What is making us otherwise? Governing our lives - socially, materially, psychologically.




Good questions.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: anarchy [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #23644176 - 09/14/16 09:30 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:


the very language we are using in this thread depends on strict rules to convey intelligible meaning.




even the brain is very ordered, when order vanishes things like epilepsy happen.

even cells obey rules, when they don't it's called cancer

even DNA obeys rules, when it doesn't we get genetic disease, mutations, 2 headed calves, death, etc.

even atoms have very specific structures, hence we have elements and chemistry

even space has rules (Only 17 wallpaper groups, 2 object can't occupy the same space etc.)

BUT of course excess rigidity is not the best way to do things,
and kids learn language without school ... anyway ...

Theory aside, at this point, no way are the NSA, CIA, IRS, The FED, Police, WMF, KGB etc. going to pack their bags go home and say: 'sorry guys have a hippie party or join the Hell's Angels or gang bangers if you're feeling really nasty today.' Anit gonna happen. And how many political revolutions have ended up as tyrannies? Some worse than before...

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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: anarchy [Re: laughingdog]
    #23645743 - 09/14/16 08:33 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

HalfLight said:
The argument that a regional event of anarchy would lead to a power vacuum that would replaced with some other form of governing hierarchy is self-defeating. If anarchy functions (by whatever standard anyone may place on functionality) before intervention by such an institution or group, then anarchy does work, and government is the failure, not anarchy itself.
Try to observe not anarchy as the vacuum, but government. What anarchist group/event has committed genocide, dropped nukes, inflated currency, stole people's labour via taxation, halted innovation via regulation, and eliminated the human right to free travel via borders? One might use the Red Death during the Spanish Civil War to argue this, but George Orwell himself has stated that these mass-murders were directed and conducted by KGB agents that had infiltrated the resistance against Franco.

If any such societal vacuum does exist, it exists in the form of governing institutions, and aggressive militant groups.

It may be informative to take a look at the modern political structure of West Kurdistan as an example of anarchy/left libertarianism's success despite overwhelming odds and the negative impact of foreign nations' intervention in the region. On a basis of ratios, the Kurds are defending themselves from ISIS more successfully than the governments of Iraq and Syria, while maintaining a significantly more equitable society. Perhaps it will not last due to the intervention of these various violent governments (some of which have been trying to literally exterminate the Kurds for centuries), but the fact that it has lasted this long while maintaining autonomy and very loose centralization is a point of significance.




I dunno, I guess I'm of the opinion that, nine times out of ten, if there is an opportunity for an aspiring party or group to assume a power role over others -- if there is that opportunity -- it will be taken.  I'm afraid I don't follow your notion that government exists as a vacuum.  Over the long term, power structures will emerge in any civilized society.  The Kurds are a fine example of what can happen, but as you say, it's a very precarious situation and likely to fall apart.  And that's just what I'm talking about.

Humans being humans, if influence or power over others can be taken, it will be assumed by someone.  That is true throughout history.  I don't believe humans are evolved enough at this point to make intentional communities, or new egalitarian societies, work on a meaningful scale.



Man I Hate this site on mobile.
How does one define a vacuum? By laws of geothermodynamics? Is a vacuum 0 degrees kelvin? Or is it simply a large force composed of smaller pieces trying to take away little bits of us one at a time? Either way, has absolute self-determination been the result of or resulted in violence? From where do you source this info?
As far as actually defining "vacuum", see Hiroshima, where thousands had the atoms that their molecularly structured life-formes split by nuclear fission.

Sometimes, access to the vacuum is power, and thus power and the vacuum become synonymous.

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: anarchy [Re: HalfLight]
    #23645805 - 09/14/16 09:02 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

When I say vacuum, I mean that if one removed from society all of the authority structures, and all of the instruments of those structures, and erased all laws, almost immediately, new ones would begin to form.  And they would very likely be more oppressive than the ones they replaced.

If there is the opportunity, in an anarchic situation, to gain power in some way, someone will inevitably take it.  It only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch.


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: anarchy [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23645807 - 09/14/16 09:03 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

why do you assume that a power vaccum would be open to be consumed by some greedy power?

do you not think people could collectively decide how to handle their affairs in local settings?

I think your assumptions are just that.....and are propagating things staying the same. i don't propose a mad maxx lawlessness...but i do believe if we were left to our own devices...people wouldn't degenerate to their worst and eat each other...we'd work together...

and eventually be a lot more efficient without middle man hierarchy and the few hording resources/power.

Edited by TameMe (09/14/16 09:03 PM)

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: anarchy [Re: TameMe]
    #23645814 - 09/14/16 09:04 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

As I said, it only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch.  If anarchy worked there would be more of it.


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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: anarchy [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23645974 - 09/14/16 10:02 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
When I say vacuum, I mean that if one removed from society all of the authority structures, and all of the instruments of those structures, and erased all laws



By whom would thse stucturest, insruments, and laws be erased?
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:almost immediately, new ones would begin to form.



Via what resource/ Or in pursuit of what specific resource? How would formation even begin at the slightest level with all previous structure having been "erased"?
Quote:

DividedQuantum said: And they would very likely be more oppressive than the ones they replaced.



Is this evident by CIA funded/trained coups or civil unrest in nations throughout Africa, Eastern Europe, South America, and SE Asia? Sure if Government decides the regions resources are a valuable asset that needs to be accommodated for, blood will needlessly be shed for IMF interests. This is besides the point: where is your evidence?

Quote:

DividedQuantum said: If there is the opportunity, in an anarchic situation, to gain power in some way, someone will inevitably take it.  It only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch.



And when self-defense is a human right, a bad apple trying to infect another is promptly eliminated and incinerated. Problem solved.


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dead man walking

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: anarchy [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23646735 - 09/15/16 07:22 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:... If anarchy worked there would be more of it.




anybody who wants to master anything must apply a lot of focused effort.
even surfers who don't punch a time clock spend all day exercising,
after all their lives are at stake, when they go for the big ones...
just try attending a martial arts class, or violin class and telling the teacher your into anarchy today!

seems generally speaking anarchy is a fantasy, self indulgent teenagers are prone to.

the difference between surfers and many others is that they like what they do. That's where true freedom is. The passion they have, for the activity, is a stronger motivator than any distraction, or supposed other freedom. That's the paradox, freedom is found in giving it up.
Nobody on this forum would be alive if their mother hadn't given up a lot of freedom.

Some might say: between tyranny and anarchy is spontaneity, they are all different, and it's a mistake to confuse the last two.
In Jazz they call 'spontaneity' 'improvisation'. But the roots are African drumming whose foundation is obviously order. And in western music one starts by practicing the scales, not by telling the teacher you're into anarchy toady!

Apparently many are so freaked out by injustice, they want to throw out  the baby with the bath water. The French revolution sure benefited the executioners, and guillotine manufacturers, but few learn from history.

No complex process in nature can maintain itself, as an identifiable entity ( or separately identifiable process), without rules.

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: anarchy [Re: laughingdog]
    #23646825 - 09/15/16 08:21 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Apparently many are so freaked out by injustice, they want to throw out  the baby with the bath water. The French revolution sure benefited the executioners, and guillotine manufacturers, but few learn from history.





From:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_Lavoisier

Antoine-Laurent de Lavoisier (also Antoine Lavoisier after the French Revolution;
He is widely considered in popular literature as the "father of modern chemistry”…..
It is generally accepted that Lavoisier's great accomplishments in chemistry largely stem from his changing the science from a qualitative to a quantitative one. …
He was branded a traitor by the Convention under Maximilien de Robespierre during the Reign of Terror in 1794. … Lavoisier was tried, convicted, and guillotined on 8 May 1794 in Paris, at the age of 50, along with his 27 co-defendants.

A year and a half after his death, Lavoisier was exonerated by the French government. During the White Terror, his private belongings were delivered to his widow, a brief note was included, reading "To the widow of Lavoisier, who was falsely convicted".

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: anarchy [Re: HalfLight]
    #23646933 - 09/15/16 09:23 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

HalfLight said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
When I say vacuum, I mean that if one removed from society all of the authority structures, and all of the instruments of those structures, and erased all laws



By whom would thse stucturest, insruments, and laws be erased?




I don't know, it seems what we are discussing is mostly hypothetical.  Perhaps that is another indicator that anarchy is implausible.

Quote:

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:almost immediately, new ones would begin to form.



Via what resource/ Or in pursuit of what specific resource? How would formation even begin at the slightest level with all previous structure having been "erased"?




Well, any resource, take water.  Or electricity.  How would one socialize it in an anarchic society?  At what level of population size do you run into problems?  Etc.

Quote:

Quote:

DividedQuantum said: And they would very likely be more oppressive than the ones they replaced.



Is this evident by CIA funded/trained coups or civil unrest in nations throughout Africa, Eastern Europe, South America, and SE Asia? Sure if Government decides the regions resources are a valuable asset that needs to be accommodated for, blood will needlessly be shed for IMF interests. This is besides the point: where is your evidence?




Well, once again, it's evident as a hypothetical.  But the toppling of governments for regime change, which as you say has been repeatedly carried out by the CIA, could give some indication of the general process involved -- in a certain way.  But that raises an interesting question:  How does one go about instituting an anarchic society?  That seems to be an oxymoron.  On the one hand, there are successful small communes in places, but I think there would be a crunch at a certain population size, and at a certain level of  complexity of the society.


Quote:

Quote:

DividedQuantum said: If there is the opportunity, in an anarchic situation, to gain power in some way, someone will inevitably take it.  It only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch.



And when self-defense is a human right, a bad apple trying to infect another is promptly eliminated and incinerated. Problem solved.




Not always.  In fact, it's often not the case.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: anarchy [Re: laughingdog]
    #23646939 - 09/15/16 09:24 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:... If anarchy worked there would be more of it.




anybody who wants to master anything must apply a lot of focused effort.
even surfers who don't punch a time clock spend all day exercising,
after all their lives are at stake, when they go for the big ones...
just try attending a martial arts class, or violin class and telling the teacher your into anarchy today!

seems generally speaking anarchy is a fantasy, self indulgent teenagers are prone to.

the difference between surfers and many others is that they like what they do. That's where true freedom is. The passion they have, for the activity, is a stronger motivator than any distraction, or supposed other freedom. That's the paradox, freedom is found in giving it up.
Nobody on this forum would be alive if their mother hadn't given up a lot of freedom.

Some might say: between tyranny and anarchy is spontaneity, they are all different, and it's a mistake to confuse the last two.
In Jazz they call 'spontaneity' 'improvisation'. But the roots are African drumming whose foundation is obviously order. And in western music one starts by practicing the scales, not by telling the teacher you're into anarchy toady!

Apparently many are so freaked out by injustice, they want to throw out  the baby with the bath water. The French revolution sure benefited the executioners, and guillotine manufacturers, but few learn from history.

No complex process in nature can maintain itself, as an identifiable entity ( or separately identifiable process), without rules.




:thumbup:


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: anarchy [Re: laughingdog]
    #23647255 - 09/15/16 11:40 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

so if a leader/authority tells you to do something you just do it unquestioningly?

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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: anarchy [Re: laughingdog]
    #23647880 - 09/15/16 03:35 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:... If anarchy worked there would be more of it.




anybody who wants to master anything must apply a lot of focused effort.
even surfers who don't punch a time clock spend all day exercising,
after all their lives are at stake, when they go for the big ones...
just try attending a martial arts class, or violin class and telling the teacher your into anarchy today!

seems generally speaking anarchy is a fantasy, self indulgent teenagers are prone to.

the difference between surfers and many others is that they like what they do. That's where true freedom is. The passion they have, for the activity, is a stronger motivator than any distraction, or supposed other freedom. That's the paradox, freedom is found in giving it up.
Nobody on this forum would be alive if their mother hadn't given up a lot of freedom.

Some might say: between tyranny and anarchy is spontaneity, they are all different, and it's a mistake to confuse the last two.
In Jazz they call 'spontaneity' 'improvisation'. But the roots are African drumming whose foundation is obviously order. And in western music one starts by practicing the scales, not by telling the teacher you're into anarchy toady!

Apparently many are so freaked out by injustice, they want to throw out  the baby with the bath water. The French revolution sure benefited the executioners, and guillotine manufacturers, but few learn from history.

No complex process in nature can maintain itself, as an identifiable entity ( or separately identifiable process), without rules.




Freedom is not rationally comparable to a voluntarily chosen risk/benefit ratio without institutional aggression of unchangeable fluctuations of the natural, phsyical world. An experienced surfer riding an amateur's dangerous wave may make money or be the subject of via viral footage from a GoPro, or a cinematographer on the beach, or to simply make the independent choice of setting themselves high aspirations. This isn't a sacrifice of freedom, it is freedom in the form of self-determination.

Did my mother give up freedom in having me? No, she expressed freedom through her choice and pursuit of having a male child. The ability to equate this to giving up freedom (except in instances of pregnancy as a result of sexual assault) is contradictory, as we look at oppressive governments wtih mandated population control for "the greater good."
I've had guns in my face, been shot at and returned fire, hung off of 1000 foot cliff drops, and snowboarded off trail weaving between thick tree trunks and and sharp branches at 60 degree inclines, nearly died from dehydration, and knocked up three gang-bangers trying to steal my camera equipment (one of them mere seconds from drawing  a MAC-10) with a walking stick I had learned to use defensively via staff-based Tae Kwon Do training, and had my back split open all the way down the center to stop my chest cavity from collapsing on itself. All of it due to an an active goal of seeking health, freedom, and the best photo opportunities I could. 

I was formerly a famous anarchist blogger, but tested the scope of government surveillance (I suspected was ongoing due to IP activity on a certain blog - that for all intensive purposes and due to lack of evidence has no relation to me - and infiltration of the online community I had joined. For journalistic purposes by alluding to LEOs would endanger themselves (though I never implied physical danger, but political and socioeconomic consequences was the result of their mistakes)  through a vague blog post, I was SWATed with no evidence of any crime on site within twenty minutes, and after outnegotiating the negotiator, I had him replaced with one that local PD had been ordered to monitor a blog 'associated with me' by an unnamed intelligence agency. I had set up surveillance systems beforehand, and have multiple copies of audio recordings of the conversation , as well as recording of radio conversation afterwards and photos/videos of illegal surveillance of my residence afterwards. From the barricades I set up in those twenty minutes, upon my "surrender" to gain intel from the inexperienced negotiator about the extend of surveillance on "me" despite their being no evidence that I was the person they were performing surveillance on, I was actually complimented by a SWAT member saying I would do well as a Navy SEAL. I got an obsessive detective suspended without paid leave with this info,and a rather long-term restraining order against this police department as a result of the evidence I gathered, pictures of me shaking hands and videos of me speaking to and finding shared opinions with State Supreme court justices (one of which is libertarian and put me in touch with my now go-to law firm), pictures of me being certified as an Eagle Scout, transcripts detailing high performance during my time in college thus far, IQ test results from a psychiatrist, with with promises that this info would go public via my connections to media outlets (who have been wanting the details for months, but it's all about timing)  as soon as the restraining order is lifted and/or the detective is placed on active duty again. I have put myself in danger, but have not sacrificed security because I knew what I was doing, nor sacrificed freedom because I know my capabilities and goals.

All in all, I sacrificed security for the sake of freedom. If my barricades were not set up in a manner that would have resulted in a a full-blown siege for access to my residence at the time, my weapons (all legally owned) had not been locked in a proper locker, I could have been easily killed in the SWAT raid. But I wasn't, nor were many of these surfers, nor was my mother in in her active decision to give birth to me. And by my standards, the desire to birth a baby out of one's free will and raise them is an act of independence. Would you imply that motherhood is by default a loss of liberty?


So, in my experience, if you are proficient in the area that the security risk is taken, you can easily gain freedom by taking the risk. Successful entrepreneurs do the same thing, but with financial gain. This is my argument against sacrificing freedom for safety. I set up a booby-trap alarm system on this 'associated' old blog's URL, and noted that the same PD would attempt to access an erased URL from their servers every couple of months. Did some heavy tracing through the server that was trying to access this erased info via a network of modified routers and multiple VPNs via internet access points that place my IP in several places at once, and discovered it to be the stalker detective. All this info is available on certain secure clouds, as well as CDs/flash drives placed among trusted friends and family, in case his suspension comes to an end, and/or the restraining end earlier than agreed upon..

And in the time since then, I have had photos featured in local papers, online publications, received interviews and awards, and googling my actual name and paid background checks results in nothing but absolute cleanliness, compliments from others in my professional network as well as former associates within an international corporation I was formerly employed by that is worth nearly 10% of the US national debt, along with credits in a variety of publications, and interviews that portrayed me as I am, an excellent photographer and journalist/writer with close ties to family, charity, nature, and efforts towards international equity. All without any official record besides the records I control and complaints to PD about harassment, a civil case settled out of court that resulted me as being untouchable, as well as the city's police chief suspending this ex-detective from the force.

As far as "rules" go, see Natural Law and Natural Rights. These would exist with or without a government. A person who commits aggression against another would be met with self-defense, or in failure of self-defense, retaliation by those apposed to unwarranted aggression. This happens no matter what level of government is present or not.

The most active forms of freedom under subjugation are born through methodical planning to safely sacrifice what many of you view as "security".

As far as comparing a relatively minor art form to need for order, it is silly to compare an industry dominated by an institution that is mainly]comprised of monopoly/strict control on this form of expression.Technique is not restriction. In fact, some of the most well-studied musicians in theory create some of the most "chaotic" sounding music that is actually guided by extremely well practiced technique..

What you view as anarchy, I experience as the strategic place as my guaranteed invulnerability from governing entities, and if/when that runs out, major media stories about injustice committed by law enforcement against a automatic-victim persona.

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Re: anarchy [Re: HalfLight]
    #23648175 - 09/15/16 05:24 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

“Freedom is not rationally comparable to a voluntarily chosen risk/benefit ratio without institutional aggression of unchangeable fluctuations of the natural, phsyical world.”

thats a challenging sentence

this phrase: ‘without institutional aggression’  assumes “ ’god’ knows what” probably anything the government does that you don’t like.

“amateur's dangerous wave”another dumb assumption

‘Did my mother give up freedom in having me?’

i don’t know your mom

but i can tell you, washing diapers (i go back a ways) is not the same as  talking anarchy to hippie chicks at a party

‘No, she expressed freedom through her choice and pursuit of having a male child.

‘sounds like you are proud your mom wanted a boy’

of all the dumb things to be proud of..

“The ability to equate this to giving up freedom (except in instances of pregnancy as a result of sexual assault) is contradictory, as we look at oppressive governments wtih mandated population control for "the greater good.”- - - - -say what !! you think the world needs more people????



“I’ve had guns in my face, been shot at and returned fire, hung off of 1000 foot cliff drops, and snowboarded off trail weaving between thick tree trunks and and sharp branches at 60 degree inclines, nearly died from dehydration, and knocked up three gang-bangers trying to steal my camera equipment (one of them mere seconds from drawing  a MAC-10) with a walking stick I had learned to use defensively via staff-based Tae Kwon Do training, and had my back split open all the way down the center to stop my chest cavity from collapsing on itself. “

you and John wayne —so f**ing what?

you whole attitude is that being macho frees you from whatever you view as restrictive…
but with that attitude you will never be free of ‘self’…
which  would be the expected attitude most anywhere, but on a forum that dabbles in mind expansion and freedom from ego and self, it comes across as somewhat silly.

there are certainly many who share your sort of views—like preppers and many gun owners, —but amusingly such folks are as concerned with security, as you are to thumb your nose at it…

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Re: anarchy [Re: zzripz]
    #23648185 - 09/15/16 05:28 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
so if a leader/authority tells you to do something you just do it unquestioningly?




so you too, stoop to straw man arguments, when you think people don't follow you and your views ?? 

and fail to see the irony?

too funny!!

by the way 'anarchy' is not a synonym for 'taking intelligent counter measures in response to a specific threat'

if i wanted to follow your style here i would ask you if you think all chemists should be guillotine

silly isn't it?

I thought the video you posted in the war and peace thread was a very interesting look back in history, of course it's so disturbing one can only absorb so much at one time. May watch more later.

I took specific efforts to not have academic deferment, (in the '60s) be 4F, (probably before your time), and not go to Vietnam, as it was clear to me that all military training is fundamentally about being conditioned to kill upon being give the order to do so. If or whenever  i kill it will be my choice, not someone else's. Why else have human consciousness?

Edited by laughingdog (09/15/16 06:07 PM)

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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: anarchy [Re: laughingdog]
    #23648415 - 09/15/16 06:48 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
“Freedom is not rationally comparable to a voluntarily chosen risk/benefit ratio without institutional aggression of unchangeable fluctuations of the natural, phsyical world.”

thats a challenging sentence



Not shocked that you feel that way.

Quote:

laughingdog said:this phrase: ‘without institutional aggression’  assumes “ ’god’ knows what” probably anything the government does that you don’t like.



I don't like anything the government does, because government is defined by aggression. That is the basis of the ideology I am defending from your current desperate use of ad hominems.

Quote:

laughingdog said:“amateur's dangerous wave”another dumb assumption



Have you been surfing? Sandboarding? Snowboarding? If you live in the Midwest we can meet up at the largest resort in the region and I'll go off trail from a double black diamond, evade upright and even use fallen trees to my advantage to gain momentum on the ice over them, and jump over an eight foot drop onto dirt with enough speed to keep carve down back the double black after sliding on dirt. You? You'll probably take the gondola and wait for me to teach you how to push with your back leg at the bunny hill. There's a reason amateurs die when they bite more than they can chew, and why other winter sport enthusiasts yell "HOLY SHIT" when they see how I handle myself from the lifts above.
I can bet that I can handle white caps below 8 meters while you're boogie boarding along to the shoreline with the current, and I haven't been surfing a dozen times. But I have the balance and physical adeptness to at least stay on a board at those sizes. I've been snowboarding since I was eight. For 14 years.
The difference between you and I is that I have the confidence to rely on myself. You aren't even capable of confidence in the proficient, so you use a falsely assumed lack of proficiency to attack the opinion of others. The only reason not to believe that someone who obviously knows the topic like they know how write about it in detail is that you have no belief in yourself. That isn't ad hominem, it's truth. We're in a subthread that involves psychology.

Quote:

laughingdog said:‘Did my mother give up freedom in having me?’


i don’t know your mom




Well that's convenient for you, she would see straight through your deflective ass and remind you that acting on your own is better than waiting for a bureaucrat to pay for decent disposable diapers that you might be able to work hard enough to afford.


Quote:

laughingdog said:but i can tell you, washing diapers (i go back a ways) is not the same as  talking anarchy to hippie chicks at a party




Neat strawman. I practice my philosophy through education, agitation, and action, and I don't go to parties besides family parties and NYE anymore. I don't enjoy being around drunks who are constantly humiliated by the stupid shit they did the night of, or are embarrassed about kind things they said the night of. No point in shame of your expression, it's the equivalent of being glad for your deceit.

Quote:

laughingdog said:‘No, she expressed freedom through her choice and pursuit of having a male child.

‘sounds like you are proud your mom wanted a boy’

of all the dumb things to be proud of..




My mother wanted a daughter and a son. She had the daughter, then she had the son. My older sibling that I referred to as 'daughter' is genderqueer. I was born with male genitals and am comfortable with them, and find no distaste in (non-hyper)masculinity nor in femininity. I don't care if anyone refers to me as he, she, they, etc. It's arbitrary. I find sexuality to be arbitrary too. I'm proud that I have grown up to be a son that my mother is proud of. If you think that's silly, you've got issues.

Quote:

laughingdog said:“The ability to equate this to giving up freedom (except in instances of pregnancy as a result of sexual assault) is contradictory, as we look at oppressive governments wtih mandated population control for "the greater good.”- - - - -say what !! you think the world needs more people????



Sure it does. We are consuming resources at a faster rate than ever, more people who grow up with the intelligence of the modern age can and will find ways to accommodate for limited resources on this planet. Perhaps through agricultural breakthroughs, or deep-sea or astronomical steps in science.
The implication that you believe an unspecified percentage of human beings are "undesirable" would be terrifying if you were capable of setting it into a course of action.



Quote:

laughingdog said:“I’ve had guns in my face, been shot at and returned fire, hung off of 1000 foot cliff drops, and snowboarded off trail weaving between thick tree trunks and and sharp branches at 60 degree inclines, nearly died from dehydration, and knocked up three gang-bangers trying to steal my camera equipment (one of them mere seconds from drawing  a MAC-10) with a walking stick I had learned to use defensively via staff-based Tae Kwon Do training, and had my back split open all the way down the center to stop my chest cavity from collapsing on itself. “

you and John wayne —so f**ing what?

you whole attitude is that being macho frees you from whatever you view as restrictive…
but with that attitude you will never be free of ‘self’…
which  would be the expected attitude most anywhere, but on a forum that dabbles in mind expansion and freedom from ego and self, it comes across as somewhat silly.




Since when does ego contradict with legitimate knowledge, talent and experience by an individual? Why bring up or claim to know the overarching theme of a forum? We are talking about government vs anarchy, and I'm telling you the reality that I don't need your precious power structure to protect me. They've never protected me before. I have protected myself more times than anyone else has, and the people who otherwise have did not work for the government. They were normal human beings with the capacity for empathy.

Quote:

laughingdog said:there are certainly many who share your sort of views—like preppers and many gun owners, —but amusingly such folks are as concerned with security, as you are to thumb your nose at it…



As stated before, I'm concerned with security, which is why I'm a survivor, not a beggar.


If you're going to debate on behalf of rhetorical nonsense, take a class or three first.

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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: anarchy [Re: laughingdog]
    #23648418 - 09/15/16 06:50 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
and not go to Vietnam, as it was clear to me that all military training is fundamentally about being conditioned to kill upon being give the order to do so. If or whenever  i kill it will be my choice, not someone else's. Why else have human consciousness?



Well, at least we agree on something.

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: anarchy [Re: HalfLight]
    #23648656 - 09/15/16 07:57 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

HalfLight said:
Have you been surfing? Sandboarding? Snowboarding? If you live in the Midwest we can meet up at the largest resort in the region and I'll go off trail from a double black diamond, evade upright and even use fallen trees to my advantage to gain momentum on the ice over them, and jump over an eight foot drop onto dirt with enough speed to keep carve down back the double black after sliding on dirt. You? You'll probably take the gondola and wait for me to teach you how to push with your back leg at the bunny hill. There's a reason amateurs die when they bite more than they can chew, and why other winter sport enthusiasts yell "HOLY SHIT" when they see how I handle myself from the lifts above.
I can bet that I can handle white caps below 8 meters while you're boogie boarding along to the shoreline with the current, and I haven't been surfing a dozen times. But I have the balance and physical adeptness to at least stay on a board at those sizes. I've been snowboarding since I was eight. For 14 years.





Well aren't we hot shit.

Lol I guessed you were 22 and there it is.  Haha


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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: anarchy [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23648730 - 09/15/16 08:21 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

HalfLight said:
Have you been surfing? Sandboarding? Snowboarding? If you live in the Midwest we can meet up at the largest resort in the region and I'll go off trail from a double black diamond, evade upright and even use fallen trees to my advantage to gain momentum on the ice over them, and jump over an eight foot drop onto dirt with enough speed to keep carve down back the double black after sliding on dirt. You? You'll probably take the gondola and wait for me to teach you how to push with your back leg at the bunny hill. There's a reason amateurs die when they bite more than they can chew, and why other winter sport enthusiasts yell "HOLY SHIT" when they see how I handle myself from the lifts above.
I can bet that I can handle white caps below 8 meters while you're boogie boarding along to the shoreline with the current, and I haven't been surfing a dozen times. But I have the balance and physical adeptness to at least stay on a board at those sizes. I've been snowboarding since I was eight. For 14 years.





Well aren't we hot shit.

Lol I guessed you were 22 and there it is.  Haha




Good. You can perform basic mathematics Is this relevant? I very likely make more money than you, depend less on other people than you, provide more for other people than you, and if I had a kid I would go buy some nice disposable diapers for them, rather than "rewashing" them. Is that how you were raised? And why you type from wherever you're sitting like you've had a miserable rash on your ass since you were an infant?

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Re: anarchy [Re: HalfLight]
    #23648817 - 09/15/16 09:09 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

All right dude, knock it off before a line gets crossed, please.


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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: anarchy [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23648878 - 09/15/16 09:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
All right dude, knock it off before a line gets crossed, please.



Don't you mean BORDER??
And also, sorry, am I beginning to break forum rules?
Nah but okay. We can agree to disagree, and live completely different lifestyles in different regions. I might not like yours, and you might not like mine, but that's okay. We probably have more in common than either of us think We're both on the Shroomery, which makes us a huge statically oulier.
For what it's worth, I enjoyed the debate, and thought of the little jabs to be playful. You started the thread asking a question, and I answered with what I believed until it was clearly going nowhere, hence the jabs.
You want control, and I don't want or need it, you can't exert it over me, and I won't let what I believe to be corrupt government influence me tot the extent that I'm capable of reducing influence.
Anyways, sorry if I really offended you.
You seem like a decent fellow, leaving out the heated part of the debate, so with the chances of us running into each other again and disagreeing on fundamental philosophy, perhaps we just keep it civil.
Anyways, I did enjoy the debate. The best way to improve praxis is by having holes poked in it.
See you around, dude, and for what it's worth I'll give you a good rating for initiating and engaging in such a discussion, but knowing when to end it when it was no longer going anywhere.
Peace.

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Re: anarchy [Re: HalfLight]
    #23648905 - 09/15/16 10:00 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Very civilly done. :thumbup:


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Re: anarchy [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23648965 - 09/15/16 10:34 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
As I said, it only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch.  If anarchy worked there would be more of it.




If humanity worked, there would be less of us.


--------------------
You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want.

People that do not want what they need, have a problem.

Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?

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Re: anarchy [Re: ChristopherABrown]
    #23648984 - 09/15/16 10:41 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I absolutely have to agree with that.


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Re: anarchy [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23648996 - 09/15/16 10:44 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Very civilly done. :thumbup:



Read my rating of you and you'll get it :cool:

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Re: anarchy [Re: HalfLight]
    #23649020 - 09/15/16 10:52 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks man.


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Re: anarchy [Re: HalfLight]
    #23652186 - 09/17/16 05:08 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Thank you for pointing out some deeper aspects of the issues. Your profound insights into all of the issues is astounding. One can see why you always win. Your use of the phrase ad hominem is impeccable. The anarchy of your thoughts is truly astounding. Your freedom from what others may think of you is as impressive as all your other superior skills. One can see you will do well in life with your unsurpassed freedom and total command of anarchy, and ability to wield them as and when you see fit, as you move forward to the next exciting and unknown challenges awaiting you down the road, as you leave the past, and charge ahead now, and win the next race. Who knows what lies over the horizon?
Only moving forward immediately will insure the opportunity to dominate again in a new place of your choosing.

Edited by laughingdog (09/17/16 05:15 AM)

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Re: anarchy [Re: laughingdog]
    #23656109 - 09/18/16 03:37 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

:strokebeard:

hmmm are you the anti-anarchist? :what2:

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Re: anarchy [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23656374 - 09/18/16 05:25 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Contrary to what some believe, anarchy would not work, nor would it be desirable.  As soon as you have an anarchic state, you're going to have individuals and groups swoop in to fill the latent power vacuum.  No matter what, in every civilized society, one group has power over others at any given time.  So the goal should not be an impossible anarchy, but setting up the most humane and effective government that we can.

I know we're all fed up with government, but is there really any alternative?  Too much 'law and order' can be oppressive, but there is probably such a thing as not enough, no?




That's a nice post. Anarchy is not the way, imagine a world where it was socially acceptable to kill a persons pet dog or cat, to have sex with your best friends mother or wife etc etc. People are bound to get mad and soon after this whole eye for eye could be developing , after that people would probably start banding together to counter Anarchy then you would have a divided population and it would probly balance itself out to some degree.

Then you have a humane and effective government which is prone to corruption because the Government is held by select few individuals, you cant let the whole people of the country just decide shit for the nation. It won't work because division is weak but strength comes through unity. Look at the big powers in the world , the Governments have used ways to keep their population in check whether it be Vodka or Hollywood.....

Hierarchy exists even in non civil societies As in Monkey so in Man. So what do?

Once again this forum does loop , no answer but the same question;

Can something change or will history keep on repeating. zzZzzZzzz :um:


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Re: anarchy [Re: Withinity]
    #23656604 - 09/18/16 06:43 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Or will history end?


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Re: anarchy [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23656688 - 09/18/16 07:06 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Hahahahahahaha :lol: Maybe for us.



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Re: anarchy [Re: Withinity]
    #23657422 - 09/18/16 11:54 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Withinity said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Contrary to what some believe, anarchy would not work, nor would it be desirable.  As soon as you have an anarchic state, you're going to have individuals and groups swoop in to fill the latent power vacuum.  No matter what, in every civilized society, one group has power over others at any given time.  So the goal should not be an impossible anarchy, but setting up the most humane and effective government that we can.

I know we're all fed up with government, but is there really any alternative?  Too much 'law and order' can be oppressive, but there is probably such a thing as not enough, no?




That's a nice post. Anarchy is not the way, imagine a world where it was socially acceptable to kill a persons pet dog or cat, to have sex with your best friends mother or wife etc etc. People are bound to get mad and soon after this whole eye for eye could be developing , after that people would probably start banding together to counter Anarchy then you would have a divided population and it would probly balance itself out to some degree.

Then you have a humane and effective government which is prone to corruption because the Government is held by select few individuals, you cant let the whole people of the country just decide shit for the nation. It won't work because division is weak but strength comes through unity. Look at the big powers in the world , the Governments have used ways to keep their population in check whether it be Vodka or Hollywood.....

Hierarchy exists even in non civil societies As in Monkey so in Man. So what do?

Once again this forum does loop , no answer but the same question;

Can something change or will history keep on repeating. zzZzzZzzz :um:




DQ is correct, and your points are also correct.  However, there are ideals and freedom is one of them we should not give up on.  People can change, particularly with education. 

If we do not get functionally unified here soon all these points will be moot.  The federal government is infiltrated and working towards tyranny one way or another.  The kind of unity that will work is that which goes towards a  lawful and peaceful revolution

When American state citizens realize that free speech has a purpose and work towards seeing it manifest, that great mechanism for change our republic has built in to it can work.

With the purpose of free speech, people will get more and more educated, naturally.  After that happens for a generation or two, we will be different people and no longer manipulated by corporate media to trade what we need for what we want.

People who think like that can appreciate anarchy more than we can.  When everyone knows about as much as there is know about needs as there is, and will not place a want over a need, anarchy can work.

It's a long way off, but protecting unalienable rights with unity is natural, and the law of the land supports it.


--------------------
You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want.

People that do not want what they need, have a problem.

Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?

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Re: anarchy [Re: ChristopherABrown]
    #23660745 - 09/20/16 05:36 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Anarchy is more of a personal philosophy, than a legitimate form of governance. the only way it works is if everyone's personal ethical endeavors and limitations were cohesive all at once on a personal level.

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Re: anarchy [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23661189 - 09/20/16 10:08 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I like to think of it as a personal moral philosophy to follow (specifically voluntarism for myself, though syndicalism as well as many forms of civil disobedience and political organization/demonstration stem from anarchist/libertarian theory and larger-scale practice).
Educate, agitate, organize.
Simply taking the time to study the theory in-depth as well as the history that displays governing institutions as a dirty bandage on a societal wound - a bandage that will eventually tear from a wound that needs to breath - displays the reality that nation-states don't simply lack permanence, they lack solution altogether. Informing others about this as it enters discourse (don't be one of those molotov-throwing idiots at riots or that pretentious jackass IRL that's constantly shoving their politics down other people's throats) can lead them to the same path, and the idea spreads, as it has since in the west since its foundations in the Magna Carta.

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Re: anarchy [Re: HalfLight]
    #23661304 - 09/20/16 10:50 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Agorism is a futile program, all it does is create an enemy for the system to point to, as the principalities at hand will always find and promote fault with those actions considered illegal, because there can be fault found therein. faults that effect everyone, just like everyone economic action does.

it's a band-aid to one's personal status, within an impoverished, or less-than-free state.

the message is nearly impossible to penetrate into consciousness, as these things are generally seen as criminal, and immoral.

perhaps with cryptocurrency, there is less of a backlash...but it's not complete solution to any of the current political station of the US government.

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Re: anarchy [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23661408 - 09/20/16 11:24 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Agorism is a wonderful example of this. This website itself is based on the principle of personal autonomy and the success of the black market, as well as grey market innovation in face of regulation.
Cryptocurrency does provide less backlash, and it certainly isn't a complete solution, but it's also certainly another ultimately anarchist success. Even non gold-standard currency has rapidly overtaken the value, and, in many areas the applicability of state-sanctioned federal reserve for instance.

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Re: anarchy [Re: HalfLight]
    #23661414 - 09/20/16 11:26 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

In addition, the acclaimed futility of Agorism is easily shrugged off by prostitution as a trade.

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Re: anarchy [Re: HalfLight]
    #23661422 - 09/20/16 11:30 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

perhaps it's useful to an extent. what i meant is, it just isn't a viable governmental philosophy, so it's ultimately futile in the sense that it would eventually turn into a more proper form of government. but i still think it's not exactly viable in creating a counter-economy, that's for anyone but those whom aim to empower themselves, ie, not anyone else.

it creates counter-culture examples like The Mafia, for example, which eventually become just like their counter-parts. sadly.

though, you bring up some interesting points. gold-standard currency is a good production method of creating wealth outside the federal reserve, until that is, it's laid claim to outside the Agoric marketplace by the prevailing government that needs be come into power, for their to be any effect at all.

Quote:

In addition, the acclaimed futility of Agorism is easily shrugged off by prostitution as a trade.




that doesn't sound like a good standard to set for trade.

nice to see someone actually discuss the subject, for once, though. :smile: kudos. i'm only informally learned on the subject. it's just my personal insight (hopefully) and opinion.

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Re: anarchy [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23661998 - 09/20/16 02:37 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I personally don't see Agorism as any desirable standard, but rather praxis to maim trade monopolies and a viable method of battling economic aggression.

Prostitution is a good example because it has been an continuous and unstoppable black market service in spite of any and every governing power that attempted to stop it. Unfortunately its illegality and social stigma has led to it being a trade dominated by violence, as sex workers are so commonly viewed as a product rather than a human service provider. Plus conservative influences make people in positions of power who seek out such services take no action towards protecting sex workers (through methods such as decriminalization, specifically) in order to keep these affairs in the dark, parse,  to protect their character in the public's eye for the sake of holding seats of political power. It remains the largest market that humans are kept enslaved in the modern era.

Of course, power equalizers created through technological innovation such as firearms (readily available on the black market for prostitutes who have perhaps been convicted of a felony for being in this line in work and can't own them legally) able to defend themselves from the serial killer and the abusive pimp alike. If firearms were as effective and available as they are now in the peak of America's slave era, well... There wouldn't have been much of a peak. Perhaps they would have been as regulated as they are today though, in attempt to keep the impoverished and oppressed on their knees.

But I'm going off trail here. The point is that, ideally, there wouldn't be a government to maintain this standard.

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Re: anarchy [Re: HalfLight]
    #23662052 - 09/20/16 02:56 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

ideally, it'd be nice to self-govern solely. people can't seem to manage that though.

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Re: anarchy [Re: HalfLight] * 2
    #23664160 - 09/21/16 05:41 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

the mafia will come into your new business on the block  when your not looking and smash it the fkuc up!!!

Later two smiling men in business suits will arrive at your door and see the damage, and deeply sympathize and with arm around your shoulder tell you they can PROTECT you from further trouble for a price/rent.

You of course do not want any more trouble from 'the bad guys' so you begin paying them, the 'good guys' for your 'protection' whilst all the time they are the very people who did/do it!!!

this is EXACT same model the 'government' uses! BUT on a much vaster scale.

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Re: anarchy [Re: zzripz]
    #23665199 - 09/21/16 02:16 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
the mafia will come into your new business on the block  when your not looking and smash it the fkuc up!!!

Later two smiling men in business suits will arrive at your door and see the damage, and deeply sympathize and with arm around your shoulder tell you they can PROTECT you from further trouble for a price/rent.

You of course do not want any more trouble from 'the bad guys' so you begin paying them, the 'good guys' for your 'protection' whilst all the time they are the very people who did/do it!!!

this is EXACT same model the 'government' uses! BUT on a much vaster scale.



That is the same model, true.
But in this scenario, I would conjoin with my like-minded neighbors, invite these new mafia citizens over for a dinner party with my neighbors, and as we finish eatinng, let them know that any use of force will be met equally. They can live peacefully among us as "mafia members" or meet early deaths as mafia members.

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Re: anarchy [Re: HalfLight]
    #23665237 - 09/21/16 02:29 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

HalfLight said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
the mafia will come into your new business on the block  when your not looking and smash it the fkuc up!!!

Later two smiling men in business suits will arrive at your door and see the damage, and deeply sympathize and with arm around your shoulder tell you they can PROTECT you from further trouble for a price/rent.

You of course do not want any more trouble from 'the bad guys' so you begin paying them, the 'good guys' for your 'protection' whilst all the time they are the very people who did/do it!!!

this is EXACT same model the 'government' uses! BUT on a much vaster scale.



That is the same model, true.
But in this scenario, I would conjoin with my like-minded neighbors, invite these new mafia citizens over for a dinner party with my neighbors, and as we finish eatinng, let them know that any use of force will be met equally. They can live peacefully among us as "mafia members" or meet early deaths as mafia members.




So you reckon a mafia type mindset invented the myth of 'turn the other cheek'?

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Re: anarchy [Re: zzripz]
    #23665273 - 09/21/16 02:42 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I wouldn't live in a neighborhood where people turn the other cheek to violent aggression.


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Re: anarchy [Re: HalfLight]
    #23665280 - 09/21/16 02:44 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

And if they win who will protect you?


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Re: anarchy [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23665291 - 09/21/16 02:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Me, and the associates that I would notify for need of reinforcement since an arising mafia that would grow in power and size if not halted there.

In the event that reinforcements would not be able to arrive in time, me and the community would likely have already evacuated children from the area in anticipation of possible violence. In which case: Sampson Option.


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Re: anarchy [Re: HalfLight]
    #23665293 - 09/21/16 02:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. I'm not sure what makes "turn the other cheek" or nonviolence
a myth. Grasping at the moral high ground has worked numerous times throughout history (early Christians in
Rome, Ghandi, MLK, and many more)

And where do all these claims of "anarchy has been tried numerous times and doesn't work" come from? There are
numerous intentional living communities around the world that have an anarchist philosophy and are doing
just fine. Again there are larger historical examples in Spain, Ukraine, the Barbary Coast, and more.


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'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
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Re: anarchy [Re: Crumist]
    #23665304 - 09/21/16 02:53 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. I'm not sure what makes "turn the other cheek" or nonviolence
a myth. Grasping at the moral high ground has worked numerous times throughout history (early Christians in
Rome, Ghandi, MLK, and many more)

And where do all these claims of "anarchy has been tried numerous times and doesn't work" come from? There are
numerous intentional living communities around the world that have an anarchist philosophy and are doing
just fine. Again there are larger historical examples in Spain, Ukraine, the Barbary Coast, and more.




:whathesaid: However, self-defense is just as much a moral good as any. If someone was likely about to be raped, should they "lose their eye" for the sake of nonviolence or take their aggressor's head?


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Re: anarchy [Re: HalfLight]
    #23665886 - 09/21/16 06:09 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

There is a big difference between self defense, and "tit for tat", which I understood you were
advocating for in your mobster scenario. Raping or murdering a rapist long after the fact in retribution
is pointedly different than killing them in self defense.


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
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Re: anarchy [Re: Crumist]
    #23666772 - 09/21/16 11:17 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

You/re right, a community-managed court based on natural law could deal with justice. However, executing a murderer who did not kill in self defence or a rapist who has not been rehabilitated by their own means or charitable donation with irrefutable evidence that they committed these crimes would be much more fair and affordable anyways.
If a mob was engaging in open warfare with a community, courts would be disrupted, and "tit for tat" would be the likely scenario, as it is in any violent encounter between small groups. The difference being that the same standard would apply to the anarchist society. Civilians and children killed during battle would get as much justice possible, whether or not the perpetrator received trial.


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Re: anarchy [Re: HalfLight]
    #23666862 - 09/22/16 12:00 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Anarchy would be a shit show dystopian night mare run-a-muk.  I personally believe in very little or bare bones government involvement in our lives.  However things like laws, law enforcement are necessary for society to function in a country like the US which has 300+ million people in it.  After spending so much time in "the hood" during my heroin/crack addiction days I have an appreciation for social order.  "The hood" is about as close to anarchy I've ever seen in the united states and when anything can pop off at anytime it's not a good feeling to have.


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Re: anarchy [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #23667468 - 09/22/16 09:08 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Anarchy would be a shit show dystopian night mare run-a-muk.  I personally believe in very little or bare bones government involvement in our lives.  However things like laws, law enforcement are necessary for society to function in a country like the US which has 300+ million people in it.  After spending so much time in "the hood" during my heroin/crack addiction days I have an appreciation for social order.  "The hood" is about as close to anarchy I've ever seen in the united states and when anything can pop off at anytime it's not a good feeling to have.




That's very much in line with what I've been arguing.  Thanks for the contribution. :thumbup:


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