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InvisibleRavus
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Fairness in Science
    #4514939 - 08/09/05 05:37 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

With all this discussion of adding intelligent design into science classes because, after all, evolution is "just a theory", I believe we should also do justice to other theories in science.

For example, atomic theory is also just a theory. It is not a law of the universe, and there have been other logical alternatives put forth. I believe we should teach the elemental theory in science class, to open students' minds to the possibilities. We could tell them how scientists (no matter how primitive or stupid in comparison to modern science they may be) used to believe all matter was made out of four simple elements: water, earth, fire and air. After all, this theory is much simpler than that whole complex quantum mechanics stuff, and would help give alternatives to simple-minded students looking for a quick information fix.

Pretty soon, we could convert the entirely bland version of verifiable science into a fun-loving pseudoscientific class of mythology! Now that would be conducive for intelligence.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Fairness in Science [Re: Ravus]
    #4515109 - 08/09/05 06:29 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Be careful what you wish for. The way things are going, the four elements may soon end up in the curriculum.  :sad:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Fairness in Science [Re: Diploid]
    #4515430 - 08/09/05 08:27 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

A theory is the highest 'truth' in science.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Fairness in Science [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4515953 - 08/09/05 11:11 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Possibly. A law is really just a theory that has proven true time and time again in a certain system without fault.

Though I think it's unfair to compare the myth of the elements to intelligent design, because at least the elements could be considered real science in the sense they can be tested and verified for their truth value. Intelligent design doesn't even have that going for it, but I guess kids don't know the definition of science anyway. I have no problem with even the possibility of exogenesis being briefly examined in science, because that is true science. But intelligent design doesn't fit the definition of science in any meaningful way.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Fairness in Science [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4517417 - 08/10/05 10:49 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

A theory is the highest 'truth' in science.
Hmm..you mean a proven theory ?
Doen't that lead to method (what I would consider the highest truth in science) what finally will lead to law, as ravus said ?!

So change the method and you get totally differen relative theories and laws :smile:
(or: you need a method to prove a theory into law)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Fairness in Science [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4517622 - 08/10/05 11:57 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Hmm..you mean a proven theory ?

Nothing in science (except mathematics) is ever proved, though some things have such an overwhelming amount of evidence in their favor that they're considered practical truths.

Anyone who says otherwise is a dogmatist, not a scientist.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Fairness in Science [Re: Diploid]
    #4517732 - 08/10/05 12:27 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Hehe, yes, scientists are dogmatists, as they claim to have proven many thories in strictly controlled conditions into law :laugh: But I think the scientific wisdom-collection-method is not really a dogma, because it is proveable for every human within the same conditions, that is one of the prime laws.
The laws for a theory often must be proven right in many conditions, to find the right condition, for which the law is truely describing the theory.
So, yes, that laws can get to dogmas, if the conditions change and the method is not adapted or whatever ! :nut:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Fairness in Science [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4517952 - 08/10/05 01:36 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Scientists can only work "up to current knowledge". If an already strong theory is proven true millions of times without any failure, then up to current knowledge it can become a law. Scientists can only look to what's happened in the past, after all.

But really, for practical purposes, there's no difference between assuming a law that has been proven true millions of times an absolute law and assuming that it's a law that has not yet been proven wrong, because either way they'd have to change if it was proven wrong.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Fairness in Science [Re: Ravus]
    #4518076 - 08/10/05 02:13 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

But really, for practical purposes, there's no difference between assuming a law that has been proven true millions of times an absolute law and assuming that it's a law that has not yet been proven wrong, because either way they'd have to change if it was proven wrong.




Not really... Take Newton's Laws of Motion... specifically, the second law of motion, "The acceleration of an object as produced by a net force is directly proportional to the magnitude of the net force, in the same direction as the net force, and inversely proportional to the mass of the object" which most of us know from physics as F=ma. The law is incorrect, or at least incomplete as stated. At speeds near the speed of light, the law no longer holds true, yet we still teach F=ma in every single physics class that I have ever seen.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Fairness in Science [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4518366 - 08/10/05 03:38 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
A theory is the highest 'truth' in science.
Hmm..you mean a proven theory ?
Doen't that lead to method (what I would consider the highest truth in science) what finally will lead to law, as ravus said ?!

So change the method and you get totally differen relative theories and laws :smile:
(or: you need a method to prove a theory into law)




A theory can never become a law.


--------------------
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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Fairness in Science [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4518516 - 08/10/05 04:24 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
A theory is the highest 'truth' in science.
Hmm..you mean a proven theory ?
Doen't that lead to method (what I would consider the highest truth in science) what finally will lead to law, as ravus said ?!

So change the method and you get totally differen relative theories and laws :smile:
(or: you need a method to prove a theory into law)




A theory can never become a law.



Every law stems from theory which is confirmed by methodical perception.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Fairness in Science [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4518650 - 08/10/05 05:04 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

No. Laws stem from empirical observations and merely state that something happens.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Fairness in Science [Re: Seuss]
    #4519099 - 08/10/05 07:32 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

But really, for practical purposes, there's no difference between assuming a law that has been proven true millions of times an absolute law and assuming that it's a law that has not yet been proven wrong, because either way they'd have to change if it was proven wrong.




Not really... Take Newton's Laws of Motion... specifically, the second law of motion, "The acceleration of an object as produced by a net force is directly proportional to the magnitude of the net force, in the same direction as the net force, and inversely proportional to the mass of the object" which most of us know from physics as F=ma. The law is incorrect, or at least incomplete as stated. At speeds near the speed of light, the law no longer holds true, yet we still teach F=ma in every single physics class that I have ever seen.




Yes, but that wasn't what I was talking about. Up to the point where it was disproven, it was considered truth. Whether a scientist had doubts about it but no evidence against it, or whether that scientist fully believed in it as a law, they used it the same way either way, it affected science and mathematics the same way. We can only use that which we have up to that point in time, so in science the only truths are those that have been confirmed up to this point.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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