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Re: God is a Republican [Re: dorkus]
    #4150660 -

dr_mandelbrot said:
Now that is the sort of weird shit that gives you americans a really bad rep over here in europe :rotfl:


How's it working out with the European Vatican excommunicating anyone who believes that women have the right to abortion and everybody has the right to sex for fun.  Not to mention priests having the right to pork little altar boys. :rotfl:  Yep, real fucking paragons of rationality the Europeans.


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Re: God is a Republican [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4150775 -

Quote:
How's it working out with the European Vatican excommunicating anyone who believes that women have the right to abortion and everybody has the right to sex for fun. Not to mention priests having the right to pork little altar boys. Yep, real fucking paragons of rationality the Europeans.


Yeah, but it doesn't tell us who to vote for. Note that I disagree entirely with the Vatican on most topics. If you disallow young people in charge by tradition, while allowing seniors to retain power for life, you can't count on my support.
Second, weren't those kids abused in Boston, MA?
Shit happens everywhere, it's not tied to any one particular locale. It just seems that religious Americans tend to be more... fanatic in their convictions. Then again, we don't get the good news about reasonable religious Americans here.

On the original topic: dang, that did surprise me, despite other strange stories I've heard about your fundies. Here in Belgium, the church stopped telling people who to vote for in the fifties. Priests abusing choir boys is a thing of the past, too.

As for whacked religious cults, sure we have those here. Jehovah's Witnesses, Reformed Baptists in Holland, etc. They just don't have such an impact, because our social control isn't as manifest as yours.

The thing that does surprise me every time, is that people keep going to churches that impose such harsh guidelines, regardless of their country of origin. Are people that insecure that they can't trust themselves for moral guidelines?


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: God is a Republican [Re: Alan Stone]
    #4150796 -

Quote:
Yeah, but it doesn't tell us who to vote for.


I'm pretty sure that the current pope, while he was cardinal, told Catholics not to vote for any candidate who's pro-choice.


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Re: God is a Republican [Re: Alan Stone]
    #4150823 -

Alan Stone said:
Quote:
How's it working out with the European Vatican excommunicating anyone who believes that women have the right to abortion and everybody has the right to sex for fun. Not to mention priests having the right to pork little altar boys. Yep, real fucking paragons of rationality the Europeans.


Yeah, but it doesn't tell us who to vote for.


Bullshit

Quote:
Note that I disagree entirely with the Vatican on most topics. If you disallow young people in charge by tradition, while allowing seniors to retain power for life, you can't count on my support.
Second, weren't those kids abused in Boston, MA?


They were abused all over the country and around the world and the Vatican tried to suppress reports of it

Quote:
Shit happens everywhere, it's not tied to any one particular locale. It just seems that religious Americans tend to be more... fanatic in their convictions. Then again, we don't get the good news about reasonable religious Americans here.


To a true believer excommunication is a sentence to eternal damnation. Getting thrown out of your local congregation is nothing in comparison. Ministers do not hold the only key to salvation, unlike the all powerful priests.
Quote:
On the original topic: dang, that did surprise me, despite other strange stories I've heard about your fundies. Here in Belgium, the church stopped telling people who to vote for in the fifties. Priests abusing choir boys is a thing of the past, too.

As for whacked religious cults, sure we have those here. Jehovah's Witnesses, Reformed Baptists in Holland, etc. They just don't have such an impact, because our social control isn't as manifest as yours.




Once again I must point out that the vatican has far greater control over it's flock than any protestant religion and it is a purely European creation. Don't forget that my initial post was in response to a sanctimonious European who didn't check his own house first before labeling Americans Yahoos because of this. I don't think these people have been sentenced to eternal damnation (you are if you think you are).

Quote:
The thing that does surprise me every time, is that people keep going to churches that impose such harsh guidelines, regardless of their country of origin. Are people that insecure that they can't trust themselves for moral guidelines?


Fuck them. These people are jerkoffs all around but I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone who is not in that congregation or local area should give a shit. As far as the moral guidlines issue, religion has always been for people to be supplied with answers to the tough question without having to think for themselves


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Re: God is a Republican [Re: Silversoul]
    #4150824 -

Quote:
I'm pretty sure that the current pope, while he was cardinal, told Catholics not to vote for any candidate who's pro-choice.


I know. That's exactly why I don't believe a religious institution should get involved with sexual issues ( physically or orally).


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: God is a Republican [Re: Alan Stone]
    #4150830 -

Abortion is not a sexual issue


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Re: God is a Republican [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4150859 -

Quote:
To a true believer excommunication is a sentence to eternal damnation. Getting thrown out of your local congregation is nothing in comparison. Ministers do not hold the only key to salvation, unlike the all powerful priests.


A true believer will realise his obligation is to God only.

Quote:
As far as the moral guidlines issue, religion has always been for people to be supplied with answers to the tough question without having to think for themselves


I disagree. While religion is indeed used by some to provide ALL the answers, it can often only be a guideline. There are as many christian sects as there are christians. The same goes for any other religion.

Some people just require peace of mind ('opium for the masses'), others genuinely want to know and keep seeking their entire life, even within one tradition of thought. Accepting a teacher does not necessarily lead to a washed brain.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: God is a Republican [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4150862 -

Quote:
Abortion is not a sexual issue


Okay, issues which relate to and/or are caused by sex then.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: God is a Republican [Re: Alan Stone]
    #4150894 -

Alan Stone said:
Quote:
To a true believer excommunication is a sentence to eternal damnation. Getting thrown out of your local congregation is nothing in comparison. Ministers do not hold the only key to salvation, unlike the all powerful priests.


A true believer will realise his obligation is to God only.
That is not Roman catholic doctrine. RC doctrine requires obedience to the church and they are the only keepers of truth. I reiterate, my first post here was in reference to an arrogant European expressing the opinion that Americans were a bunch of yahoos and this was a further example. I merely point out that the Roman Catholic church makes these dopes seem sane in comparison.
Quote:
As far as the moral guidelines issue, religion has always been for people to be supplied with answers to the tough question without having to think for themselves


I disagree. While religion is indeed used by some to provide ALL the answers, it can often only be a guideline. There are as many christian sects as there are christians. The same goes for any other religion.

Some people just require peace of mind ('opium for the masses'), others genuinely want to know and keep seeking their entire life, even within one tradition of thought. Accepting a teacher does not necessarily lead to a washed brain.


If you think for one second that the by and large intelligent freethinkers that inhabit this particular website and your world in general are representative of humanity as a whole you are truly sheltered


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Re: God is a Republican [Re: Alan Stone]
    #4150914 -

Alan Stone said:
Quote:
Abortion is not a sexual issue


Okay, issues which relate to and/or are caused by sex then.


The abortion issue is about when human life can be said to begin for legal purposes. This has an extension in the cloning and stem cell issue as well, neither of which has anything to do with sex. Incest, homosexuality, birth control, nonprocreative sex acts are sexual issues. Abortion is not. Nor is rape.


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Re: God is a Republican [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4150958 -

Quote:
The abortion issue is about when human life can be said to begin for legal purposes.


The church is not concerned with legal issues, and I thought we were speaking in that context.

Quote:
Incest, homosexuality, birth control, nonprocreative sex acts are sexual issues. Abortion is not.


If birth doesn't take place, it is a form of birth control. Either you claim birth control (including abortion) is not a sexual issue, or you admit that abortion is one.

Quote:
If you think for one second that the by and large intelligent freethinkers that inhabit this particular website and your world in general are representative of humanity as a whole you are truly sheltered


What if I tell you I haven't met one single person (while out in the real world consisting not only of intellectuals) who looks to religion for all their answers? Who blindly accepts everything religious writs or wits say?
Everyone interprets their religion in their own way. Whether they are conscious about it is not the issue.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: God is a Republican [Re: Alan Stone]
    #4151023 -

Alan Stone said:
Quote:
The abortion issue is about when human life can be said to begin for legal purposes.


The church is not concerned with legal issues, and I thought we were speaking in that context.
Incorrect. The church is very much concerned with legal issues. Hence the phrase "church law". Hence the churches ceaseless efforts to influence secular law as well.
Quote:
Incest, homosexuality, birth control, nonprocreative sex acts are sexual issues. Abortion is not.


Birth control is a sexual issue because it allows for recreational sex. Abortion is not a sexual issue because most of the debate surrounding it goes beyond the issue of recreational sex and whether it should be permitted and into the realm of when a human entity can be said to be endowed with the rights of personhood. The abortion debate is not a birth control debate.
If birth doesn't take place, it is a form of birth control. Either you claim birth control (including abortion) is not a sexual issue, or you admit that abortion is one.
No, I am capable of maintaining a separation of the two issues on the above mentioned grounds. I don't find it the least bit difficult to do so.

Quote:
If you think for one second that the by and large intelligent freethinkers that inhabit this particular website and your world in general are representative of humanity as a whole you are truly sheltered


What if I tell you I haven't met one single person (while out in the real world consisting not only of intellectuals) who looks to religion for all their answers? Who blindly accepts everything religious writs or wits say?
Everyone interprets their religion in their own way. Whether they are conscious about it is not the issue.


And I propose that your sample of humanity is limited and greatly skewed to such an extent that it doesn't come within a million miles of being representative of the general population. This is, of course, just a guess. And I have met more than a few Italian catholic women from Brooklyn who believe everything the priest says. If you haven't met people like this you don't get out enough.


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Re: God is a Republican [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4152318 -

Quote:
Incorrect. The church is very much concerned with legal issues. Hence the phrase "church law". Hence the church's ceaseless efforts to influence secular law as well.


Sure, granted.

Quote:
No, I am capable of maintaining a separation of the two issues on the above mentioned grounds. I don't find it the least bit difficult to do so.


Whether it is easy to maintain a seperation is not an indication of whether the seperation is the right one to make. Abortion is a sexual, ethic and legal issue. All three, not just one of them.

Quote:
And I propose that your sample of humanity is limited and greatly skewed to such an extent that it doesn't come within a million miles of being representative of the general population. This is, of course, just a guess. And I have met more than a few Italian catholic women from Brooklyn who believe everything the priest says. If you haven't met people like this you don't get out enough.


I propose that your sample of humanity consists only of Americans, whereas mine consists only of Europeans. The general population depends on where you live, doesn't it? Naturally, my observations will have different results than yours, simply because of the slight change in culture.

I'm curious, though. What did you ask to know if they believe everything the priest says? How long was your conversation on that topic? Have you had this conversation only with Catholic women of Italian descent?


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: God is a Republican [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4152324 -

We all have a long way to go, friend....

How can you possibly know where 6+ billion people are on the path?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: God is a Republican [Re: Swami]
    #4152755 -

Swami said:
We all have a long way to go, friend.... 

How can you possibly know where 6+ billion people are on the path?


Excellent point. I like to speak only for myself. Or Swami will remind me that, I is the only thing I can speak about with some athority. :thumbup: :mushroom2: :grin:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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