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InvisibleSclorch
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"First American" Drunks
    #2280428 - 01/28/04 12:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Now this is something that really confuses me.

Around here, few would question that Native Americans are more spiritual than most people living in America. And it's almost clich? to mention the irony of the large incidence of alcohol abuse among Native Americans, but it brings up an interesting point.

Since the Native American Church (and others) considers peyote to be a very powerful spiritual tool, then why do there seem to be more alcoholics than peyote abusers among the Native American population?

Granddaddy?s cough syrup must be a more powerful ?medicine? than The Great Spirit?s alkaloid-containing cactus.


--------------------
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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: "First American" Drunks [Re: Sclorch]
    #2280464 - 01/28/04 12:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Since the Native American Church (and others) considers peyote to be a very powerful spiritual tool, then why do there seem to be more alcoholics than peyote abusers among the Native American population?

Granddaddy?s cough syrup must be a more powerful ?medicine? than The Great Spirit?s alkaloid-containing cactus.




The number one epidemic in this country is alcoholism. Your conclusion makes no sense. Maybe Natives regard peyote with respect and do not abuse it like they do alcohol. How does one measure a spiritual aspect of a sacrament by abuse?


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Offlinerecalcitrant
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Re: "First American" Drunks [Re: Sclorch]
    #2280477 - 01/28/04 12:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Alcohol is easier to get. ALcohol is addictive. Alcohol eases the pain of having no money and no purpose. First nations are brain washed early to become alcoholics. Alcoholics are easily manipulated.

Spiritual communion, like mescaline use, free's your mind. It defeats consumerism. It lends new perspective to the vices, like (national) pride, greed, covetousness, etcetera.

And as we all know, they must rid the world of different perspective. If you don't dress like them, act like them, talk like them, think like them, they'll throw you in jail, they'll burn a cross on your lawn, they'll steal your house and car and all your possesions.


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We have to answer our own prayers


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: "First American" Drunks [Re: Sclorch]
    #2280484 - 01/28/04 12:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I've heard that peyote is a good way to get the Native Americans OFF of the booze, actually. :wink:
Peace.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: "First American" Drunks [Re: Sclorch]
    #2280574 - 01/28/04 01:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

A good friend of mine is Native, and she has given me the "inside story" as to why so many Natives are alcoholics these days (it wasn't always so...)

She told me about how, years ago, young Natives were routinely beaten and abused in schools and other government-run institutions. She said this is the reason for most of the alcoholism. Combine this with the fact that we almost segregate Natives to their reserves and all but fence them in...and you have a breeding ground for alcoholism.


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You've felt it your entire life.
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You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: "First American" Drunks [Re: Sclorch]
    #2280601 - 01/28/04 01:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Right, so denial is also a river in S&P.


No drug is inherently more spiritual than another.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: "First American" Drunks [Re: Sclorch]
    #2280644 - 01/28/04 01:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

no drug is inherently spiritual


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: "First American" Drunks [Re: Sclorch]
    #2280655 - 01/28/04 01:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

your asking why do there seem to be more alcoholics than peyote abusers among the Native American population? i believe recalcitrant nailed it on the head...


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this is the purpose


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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: "First American" Drunks [Re: Sclorch]
    #2280774 - 01/28/04 02:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Why is crack more commonly abused by inner-city african-americans (or so I've been told by Mama Media)?  'Cause it's what's cheap and available.  People who are in bad situations look to escape.  Lots of the time things are structured so that they can't.  Intoxication is the other way out.  Alcohol is cheaper and easier to get one's hands on than peyote.

The Myth of the Level Playing Field is one of the central dellusions of North-American culture, and least when it comes to colonialism and rascism.  Native people as a whole have been fucked over.  Support self-governing first nations territories like Nunavut and Chiapas!  Hurray!!!  :thumbup: :thumbup: :grin: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: "First American" Drunks [Re: Sclorch]
    #2280785 - 01/28/04 02:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
Right, so denial is also a river in S&P.


No drug is inherently more spiritual than another.



I read some statistic once about some psilocybin research where about 1/4 to 1/3 of the test group reported having religious experiences on the drug. I'd like to see any research that can make the same claim regarding alcohol.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: "First American" Drunks [Re: Sclorch]
    #2280875 - 01/28/04 03:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Around here, few would question that Native Americans are more spiritual than most people living in America.



I would. Native Americans are people too. Not all of them are shamans or medicine men. Most of them live pretty much like the rest of us(except in extreme poverty). My ex-girlfriend was 1/4 Cherokee, and she didn't strike me as being very spiritual at all(though to be fair, she was adopted).

Quote:

Since the Native American Church (and others) considers peyote to be a very powerful spiritual tool, then why do there seem to be more alcoholics than peyote abusers among the Native American population?



Well, first of all, not all Native Americans belong to the Native American Church. Second, the fact that you mention peyote "abusers" is very telling. Peyote does not lend itself to abuse as much as alcohol. It tastes awful and you're pretty much guaranteed to puke on it, not to mention the long trip it gives the user. It's not the kind of thing you'd want to do on a frequent basis. Furthermore, it should be noted that the Native American Church forbids the use of alcohol, and consequently, alcoholism rates are much lower among its members than among the general Native American population.

Quote:

Granddaddy?s cough syrup must be a more powerful ?medicine? than The Great Spirit?s alkaloid-containing cactus.



Or maybe they just like to get fucked up like the rest of us.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "First American" Drunks [Re: silversoul7]
    #2280934 - 01/28/04 03:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

If spirituality is so soothing to the soul why would someone (regardless of social condition or ethnicity) choose alcohol over God? Is God just too hard to access or is he nonexistent?

If peyote (or mushrooms or ... ) puts one in touch with God, why is there little or no real personal transformation?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: "First American" Drunks [Re: Swami]
    #2280943 - 01/28/04 03:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If spirituality is so soothing to the soul why would someone (regardless of social condition or ethnicity) choose alcohol over God? Is God just too hard to access or is he nonexistent?



I don't think many people actually choose alcohol over God. I think the two are independent of one another. Someone might believe in God and choose to drink, while someone else might be a non-drinking atheist. I fail to see any correlation between the two.

Quote:

If peyote (or mushrooms or ... ) puts one in touch with God, why is there little or no real personal transformation?



Do you have any real evidence that people who do peyote or mushrooms do not experience any real personal transformation compared to non-psychedelic users? Or are you just basing that on subjective observations and assumptions?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "First American" Drunks [Re: silversoul7]
    #2280999 - 01/28/04 03:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think many people actually choose alcohol over God.
Well most of the Amazonian people are choosing alcohol over ayahuasca even when they have access to both. I don't know if most Native Americans have equal access to peyote and alcohol.

Someone might believe in God and choose to drink, while someone else might be a non-drinking atheist. I fail to see any correlation between the two.
Not talking about casual drinking, but about "climbing into a bottle" as a way to deal with life.

Or are you just basing that on subjective observations and assumptions?
Other than the interesting small-scale "Good Friday Experiment" in 1963, there have been (to my knowledge) no large-scale sociological studies; so yes, my opinion is based on subjective observation.

As I have stated once before, go to the political forum here (we will skip OTD). Tell me how much evidence you see of transformative thinking and behavior.

I was brought up in the acid-generation. There was little talk among my friends and schoolmates about the "divine" or changing one's life and no evidence of it either, from the many burn-outs that I knew. The same today with ketamine, XTC and DXM. These users think they have touched some profound truth. Maybe they have, but cannot seem to keep hold of it.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: "First American" Drunks [Re: Swami]
    #2281361 - 01/28/04 05:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I don't think many people actually choose alcohol over God.
Well most of the Amazonian people are choosing alcohol over ayahuasca even when they have access to both. I don't know if most Native Americans have equal access to peyote and alcohol.



You said God, not peyote, ayahuasca, etc. Besides, such substances are used for rituals, not recreation.

Quote:

Someone might believe in God and choose to drink, while someone else might be a non-drinking atheist. I fail to see any correlation between the two.
Not talking about casual drinking, but about "climbing into a bottle" as a way to deal with life.



I have a friend who is a very devout Catholic, as well as a recovering alcoholic. Again, I fail to see any correlation here.

Quote:

Or are you just basing that on subjective observations and assumptions?
Other than the interesting small-scale "Good Friday Experiment" in 1963, there have been (to my knowledge) no large-scale sociological studies; so yes, my opinion is based on subjective observation.



Well your subjective observation contradicts my personal experience with psychedelics.

Quote:

As I have stated once before, go to the political forum here (we will skip OTD). Tell me how much evidence you see of transformative thinking and behavior.



I frequent that forum regularly, and I don't see how that is relevant. I don't see how you could measure very personal changes in thought by someone's political views. Psychedelics can be a catalyst for great personal change, but they do not always produce the same changes in different individuals. Drugs affect different individuals differently. In my experience, the revelations and personal changes I've gotten from psychedelics were not political in nature, but rather personal.

Quote:

I was brought up in the acid-generation. There was little talk among my friends and schoolmates about the "divine" or changing one's life and no evidence of it either, from the many burn-outs that I knew. The same today with ketamine, XTC and DXM. These users think they have touched some profound truth. Maybe they have, but cannot seem to keep hold of it.



That is why religious experiences do not necessarily translate into religion. A religion which incorporates psychedelics or other forms of personal religious experience usually accompanies those with the structure and discipline necessary to apply those experiences to everyday life. The acid generation did not have such a context in which to incorporate their experiences, and thus many simply became burn-outs, as you pointed out. The Native American Church provides such a context for its followers.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: "First American" Drunks [Re: silversoul7]
    #2281385 - 01/28/04 05:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Silversoul - I think what you're failing to see (what Swami is pointing out) is that people here aren't much different from the outside world. In other words, the form is the same but it's painted with different colors.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "First American" Drunks [Re: Sclorch]
    #2281405 - 01/28/04 05:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for translating from Swamiese to English. :eyemouth:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: "First American" Drunks [Re: Sclorch]
    #2281410 - 01/28/04 05:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

In some ways, you're right--we aren't all that different from the outside world. We have political views, we have emotions, we have virtues and vices. So what? I haven't seen a lot of the ideas here on S&P presented in the outside world. I bet a higher percent of Shroomerites are into meditation and Eastern religions than the general public(Christians certainly are underrepresented here). In the Political forum, I have only met maybe 1 or 2 people who are against gay marriage, which certainly is not representative of the general public, and suggests to me that the members of this message board tend to be more freedom-oriented than most. So maybe in a lot of ways we aren't that different from the outside world, but in many significant ways we are.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "First American" Drunks [Re: silversoul7]
    #2281427 - 01/28/04 06:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

which certainly is not representative of the general public, and suggests to me that the members of this message board tend to be more freedom-oriented than most
Beware of the illusion of cause and effect. People coming here generally have committed the crime of drug use and perhaps *gasp!* "manufacturing". So even IF there were ZERO effect from entheogen usage, this pre-filtered group of people would probably be more freedom-loving.

I bet a higher percent of Shroomerites are into meditation and Eastern religions than the general public
Here you are making the unsubstantiated assumption that these are higher teachings / practices than prayer and Western religion. Can you back this up?

Leary, Alpert, The Beatles, Santana, McKenna, myself and many other westerners turned eastward in their youth as they/we found our own religion to be lacking. After much exploration, I found some eastern religions to be more in accord with my world view, but still did not have transformative power.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: "First American" Drunks [Re: Swami]
    #2281437 - 01/28/04 06:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
which certainly is not representative of the general public, and suggests to me that the members of this message board tend to be more freedom-oriented than most
Beware of the illusion of cause and effect. People coming here generally have committed the crime of drug use and perhaps *gasp!* "manufacturing". So even IF there were ZERO effect from entheogen usage, this pre-filtered group of people would probably be more freedom-loving.



Yes, I am aware of this. I was merely pointing this out as an instance in which this online community differs from the outside world.

Quote:

I bet a higher percent of Shroomerites are into meditation and Eastern religions than the general public
Here you are making the unsubstantiated assumption that these are higher teachings / practices than prayer and Western religion. Can you back this up?



Could you point me to where I said that Eastern religions are better? I don't believe I made such a claim.

Quote:

Leary, Alpert, The Beatles, Santana, McKenna, myself and many other westerners turned eastward in their youth as they/we found our own religion to be lacking. After much exploration, I found some eastern religions to be more in accord with my world view, but still did not have transformative power.



Fair enough, but I believe that many of those other Westerners you mentioned would claim they did have transformative power over them.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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