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OfflineDroz
Love of Life
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Registered: 10/16/00
Posts: 2,746
Loc: Floorida
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Randomness.
    #3950260 - 03/22/05 02:23 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

How do you define randomness? When you define it is it real?

Can you guess what fractal most resembles randomness? Now once you know that fractal do you know how to manifest it's power? For it is the power of the sun.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: Randomness. [Re: Droz]
    #3950290 - 03/22/05 02:29 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Randomness is sequancing that follows unknown laws...
when those laws become formiliar, it is not random anymore


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineDroz
Love of Life
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Posts: 2,746
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Re: Randomness. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3950299 - 03/22/05 02:32 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

To me randomness is pure unfiltered chaos.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
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Re: Randomness. [Re: Droz]
    #3950305 - 03/22/05 02:33 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

But chaos is allso the domain of yet unknown laws


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineDroz
Love of Life
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Re: Randomness. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3950322 - 03/22/05 02:37 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

No, these laws are completely understood.


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
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Registered: 02/02/05
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Re: Randomness. [Re: Droz]
    #3950373 - 03/22/05 02:58 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Laws of chaos?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlineergot
MydriasicVisionary
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 685
Last seen: 16 years, 17 days
Re: Randomness. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3950409 - 03/22/05 03:06 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Randomness is simply laws we are still ignorant about.


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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OfflineDigitalBuddha
The Wanderer

Registered: 09/09/04
Posts: 91
Loc: Tibet
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: Randomness. [Re: ergot]
    #3950412 - 03/22/05 03:07 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Anything without pre-meditation is random.


--------------------
"The pioneers of a warless world are the youth who refuse military service"

-Albert Einstein-


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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
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Re: Randomness. [Re: Droz]
    #3950421 - 03/22/05 03:09 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

this is random..


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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InvisibleSmami
Bullshit Artist

Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 1
Loc: All up in yer
Re: Randomness. [Re: Droz]
    #3950592 - 03/22/05 03:57 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

THE DUMBEST CONVERSATION IN THE WORLD GOMP AND DROZ :penis:


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You are getting s-l-e-e-p-y. My willy is your willy. My willy is your willy...


Jacking young male since 1999!


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OfflineDroz
Love of Life
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Re: Randomness. [Re: Smami]
    #3950624 - 03/22/05 04:06 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

... and the greatest reply Swami.

Chaos is distortion.


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
Not here
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Registered: 06/26/01
Posts: 16,503
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...
Re: Randomness. [Re: Droz]
    #3952666 - 03/22/05 05:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

... and the greatest reply Swami.




It made me laugh out loud... randomly, I guess.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/10/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Randomness. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3952848 - 03/22/05 06:35 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Randomness is sequancing that follows unknown laws...

If it follows a law, known or otherwise, then it's not random.

Randomness follows no laws.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlineergot
MydriasicVisionary
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 685
Last seen: 16 years, 17 days
Re: Randomness. [Re: Diploid]
    #3952901 - 03/22/05 06:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Then, I'll declare randonmess does not exist according to your definition.


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/10/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Randomness. [Re: ergot]
    #3952921 - 03/22/05 07:01 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Then, I'll declare randonmess does not exist according to your definition.

My definition doesn't address the existence of randomness; it only states that randomness follows no laws.

If something follows a law, then it can't be random because it follows a law and can therefor be predicted by understanding the law that governs it. Randomness, by definition, cannot be predicted.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinea_h_w
Stranger
Registered: 10/13/04
Posts: 236
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Randomness. [Re: Diploid]
    #3952934 - 03/22/05 07:06 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

the random function so widely used in computer programming is built out of defined algorithms.

actually this is one class of programming always open for a challenge, like compression, you can always ask:

how random can you get?


interesting thing also is that it seems that no matter what algorithm you write most of the result depends on your capacity of feeding the algorithm a good random seed - the input data. usually coming from the computer clock.

now I find all of this interesting because just recently and on account of all this did I start giving some credit to astrology. what is astrology? an algorithm working results based on input data. you give your date and place of birth and it delivers an output.

my guess is this was developed over thousands of years finding patterns of human behavior and personality. so if it based on experience and relies on input data for algorithmically processing data why shouldn't it work?


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/10/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Randomness. [Re: a_h_w]
    #3952990 - 03/22/05 07:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

the random function so widely used in computer programming is built out of defined algorithms.

Yes, and these algorithms are called pseudo-random because, while they produce strings of numbers that meet many of the statistical requirements for random numbers, they are nevertheless totally predictable and non-random because they follow a law (algorithm).

my guess is this was developed over thousands of years finding patterns of human behavior and personality. so if it based on experience and relies on input data for algorithmically processing data why shouldn't it work?

Astrology predicts no patterns of human behavior, and no controlled study has ever demonstrated otherwise.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinea_h_w
Stranger
Registered: 10/13/04
Posts: 236
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Randomness. [Re: Diploid]
    #3958022 - 03/23/05 02:35 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

well you should first explain what is random in this world. the classic case is the coin thrown in the air, which result obviously depends on the laws of physics and the conditions evolved: the force and direction you use, wind, etc...

can you really predict the results of a good random function without decoding the program and knowing the seed?
why should the result be pseudo-random then?

about astrology maybe pattern of human behavior was not the best expression. it really comes down to individual potential and personality.
I thought it was all crap, and the astrology we usually see on the media is real garbage. what made me change a little bit my opinion was having my astral chart done. many things about it were surprisingly correct, it even stated most probably my children would be boys, which became true. it's a 50% shot, but it hit the target nevertheless.

having my maya signature done at www.icandosomething.com just helped bringing it all back to my mind a few months ago. and the most interesting thing about the maya signature is that it clearly addresses your personality in a cosmic perspective. it had so much to do with my spiritual path and exposed so well the struggles I face in it... I believe there is something to it. furthermore the maya were a tremendously interesting culture and all this stuff is based in a mathematical, lunar calendar combining a 13 day cycle with a 28 x 13 days + 1 day out of time cycle, creating a matrix that is in itself a 52 years cycle. inside this cycles there are also other cycles evolving tribes, archetypes, and many other things. it's a pretty complex thing and its results are quite interesting.


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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
Stranger

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 230
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: Randomness. [Re: a_h_w]
    #3958097 - 03/23/05 03:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

let's all eat mushrooms and get wacky!  :tongue: :smile:


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar


Edited by Delusion_of_Self (03/23/05 03:38 PM)


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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 11 months, 20 days
Re: Randomness = disorder [Re: Droz]
    #3958137 - 03/23/05 04:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

entropy


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/10/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Randomness. [Re: a_h_w]
    #3958205 - 03/23/05 04:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

well you should first explain what is random in this world.

Radioactive decay, for one, is random. It is mediated by probability waves studied by Quantum Mechanics. The probability that a particular atom will decay at a given time can be known with great precision, but whether or not the decay will actually occur is completely random, completely unpredictable, and completely unknowable.

the classic case is the coin thrown in the air

Here, also, there is Quantum Randomness. While the gross laws of mechanics can approximately predict the movement of a given mass, if you get down to the details, classical Newtonian mechanics falls short because tiny quantum perturbations of the coin as it flies through the air accumulate quickly to the point where the flip becomes unpredictable.

can you really predict the results of a good random function without decoding the program and knowing the seed?

Of course not. If you don't know anything about the system, then you can't know anything about the result. You must know the algorithm and the seed.

My point is that if it's possible to predict the future configuration of the system given the starting configuration, and if that sequence from start to finish will always be the same given the same starting conditions, then the system is not random.

Setting up a complicated machine with a zillion gears, cogs, springs, and such, then turning the crank that makes the whole thing go doesn't generate randomness. In the end, all the gears, cogs, and springs will end up in the same configuration given the same number of turns of the crank. Furthermore, turning the crank in reverse will always bring the system back to the same starting conditions. The movement of all those parts may seem random, but it's everything but. All the movements are fated, for lack of a better word, from the start.

This applies to pseudo-random number generators in computers too. Unlike a pseudo-random number generator, a coin flip is truly random and cannot be predicted nor run backwards.

why should the result be pseudo-random then?

Because that's what it is. It's a seemingly random string of numbers that is nevertheless, preordained and fixed from the start.

about astrology

If astrology and all the other mumbo-jumbo worked even a little, places like Las Vegas would not exist and insurance companies would hire psychics instead of actuaries.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (03/23/05 10:08 PM)


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Offlineergot
MydriasicVisionary
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 685
Last seen: 16 years, 17 days
Re: Randomness. [Re: Diploid]
    #3958688 - 03/23/05 07:26 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Of course... like Einstein or Bohm have mentioned, there could be HIDDEN VARIABLES determining the outcomes.


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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Offlinea_h_w
Stranger
Registered: 10/13/04
Posts: 236
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Randomness. [Re: Diploid]
    #3958748 - 03/23/05 07:40 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
the decay will actually occur is completely random, completely unpredictable, and completely unknowable.




what we don't know now, maybe we'll know tomorrow

Quote:

Diploid said:
tiny quantum perturbations of the coin as it flies through the air accumulate quickly to the point where the flip becomes unpredictable.





sure. while we don't work quantum mechanics out.

Quote:

Diploid said:
if that sequence from start to finish will always be the same given the same starting conditions, then the system is not random.





that's how life works in general. the smart thing about it is you can never have the same starting conditions twice.


Quote:

Diploid said:
If astrology and all the other mumbo-jumbo worked even a little, places like Las Vegas would not exist and insurance companies would hire psychics instead of actuaries.





sure. problem is astrology is not really about predicting the future. it's about revealing the nature of things, something quite different.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/10/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Randomness. [Re: a_h_w]
    #3958898 - 03/23/05 08:10 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

what we don't know now, maybe we'll know tomorrow

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If somehow it turns out to be possible to predict quantum events, and Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle turns out to be wrong (highly unlikely) then we'll have an algorithm to predict quantum pseudo-randomness. All current research from disparate areas of physics suggests such knowledge cannot be found.

sure. while we don't work quantum mechanics out.

You miss my point. Even working out the QM of the coin flip, calculating the interaction of every subatomic particle in the coin and air, and accounting for relativistic effects in the space-time, and every other detail you like, you will still be unable to predict how it will land. The best you can ever achieve is a precise knowledge of the probability that it will land one side or the other, but you can never predict on which side it will actually land. That's the crux of the problem Quantum Randomness presents.

that's how life works in general. the smart thing about it is you can never have the same starting conditions twice.

You're right WRT life, but we're discussing algorithms and Quantum Randomness. In both fields of study, the same starting conditions can be set up as many times as you like. In the case of an algorithm, the result will always be known in advance and will always be the same; in QM, the result will never be known in advance and the result will only occasionally be the same, all based on Quantum Probabilities and true randomness.

sure. problem is astrology is not really about predicting the future. it's about revealing the nature of things

Wrong on both counts. My local newspaper?s astrology column daily 'predicts' what will happen to me and makes suggestions on how to adjust my life to better accommodate those predictions. As for revealing the nature of things, that's what science does; astrology has yet to reveal the nature of anything but the gullibility of people who buy into it.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (03/23/05 10:00 PM)


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Offlineergot
MydriasicVisionary
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 685
Last seen: 16 years, 17 days
Re: Randomness. [Re: Diploid]
    #3959715 - 03/23/05 10:08 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Diploid... unlike most dudes on here--you know what you're talking about! However, I must admit I still have "faith" in hidden variables determining the outcome of supposed quantum indeterminancy (double-slit experiment, shroedinger's cat, etc.)...


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/10/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Randomness. [Re: ergot]
    #3959796 - 03/23/05 10:23 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"faith" in hidden variables determining the outcome of supposed quantum indeterminancy (double-slit experiment, shroedinger's cat, etc.)...

I'm on the fence re 'hidden variables' pending the discovery of evidence either way, but so far, mounting evidence precludes their existence and Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle seems unlikely to ever be shown to be wrong.

One very deep consequence of 'hidden variables' is that if they exist, then there is no such thing as free will because those 'hidden variables' would account for the behavior of every particle in the universe and render the universe a giant pre-ordained and unchangeable sequence of events. Nothing in the universe could have free will any more than a valve in a diesel engine could. Everything in the universe, like the valve, would be locked into its fate.

This leads to lots of new philosophical questions. For example, if 'hidden variables' can be found to account for QM events, and if this renders all future configurations of the universe fixed and unchangeable, then why would it be wrong for me to murder someone if, in fact, I am powerless to do otherwise.

I don't think this is how the universe works.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (03/23/05 10:32 PM)


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Offlineautomaton
DistortingReality

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 1
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Randomness. [Re: Diploid]
    #3960928 - 03/24/05 02:20 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Even if HV (hidden variables) are never found, quantum indeterminancy (randomness) does not amount to free will. The "surface" layer of reality is probabilistic (not wholly determined), but still lacking free will.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/10/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Randomness. [Re: automaton]
    #3961520 - 03/24/05 04:45 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quantum Indeterminancy does not necessarily amount to free will, I agree, but a lack of Quantum Indeterminancy (i.e. the discovery of those conjectured hidden variables) would amount to a lack of free will.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Shop: Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract, Kratom Powder For Sale   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds, Bulk Cannabis Seeds, Feminized Cannabis Seeds, High THC Strains, USA West Coast Strains   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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