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OfflineHashface
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Recased mycelia potency???
    #3924337 - 03/16/05 05:32 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I'm trying to re-case using the casserole flat cake tek. Spent cakes are crumbled, cased, and then rehydrate with a damp layer of vermiculite. Well, I tweaked the tek some, here's the steps I use.

Step 1. - Instead of using all spent cakes and filling the casserole pan, I fill the bottom of the casserole pan with only a one-inch layer of crumbled-spent cakes.
Step 2. - I make some new cakes using the PF recipe and then I sterilize them(Note: When I make the jars I don't add the top layer vermiculite)
Step 3. - I take the new cake(s) and lay down a layer on-top of the spent cakes; I add another inch of substrate. I cover the casserole pan with the damp vermiculite and aluminum-foil then put it in a dark location.
Step 4. - I take it out when I see the Mycelia permeating the vermiculite.
Step 5. - I fruit the cake, harvest a banging crop of shrooms
Step 6. - I take the spent flat cake clean it and scrap of the old Mycelia(the original top inch of spent cakes)and bottom layer of vermiculite.
Step 7. - I crumble the remainder of the flat cake, return to Step 1. and begin the process anew.
I've gone two generations with success(I'm going for three).

My question: Do successor generations of shrooms lower in potency with each iteration of this technique? I know if cloning using a mushroom potency degrades with each generation. Am I really cloning using Mycelia which is really a mushroom? I have no clue, but somebodies insight would be appreciated. What good would it be If I ended up with a ton of weak mushrooms????


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OfflineHotnuts
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Re: Recased mycelia potency??? [Re: Hashface]
    #3925048 - 03/16/05 12:56 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Are you saying that you add new and uncolonized cakes to spent cakes in order to make a colonized, reguvinated casing tray?


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Recased mycelia potency??? [Re: Hotnuts]
    #3925067 - 03/16/05 01:04 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Its not potency that degrades, its the mycelium over all. It gets weaker, produces fewer flushes, is way more open to contams, mutants, non spore producing shrooms..possibly weaker or possibly strong shrooms.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflinePhotoguy
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Re: Recased mycelia potency??? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3925119 - 03/16/05 01:17 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Thats wicked cool if you are putting new cakes in to let the mycelia grow. I mean thats really really cool, and little effort for big rewards.


--------------------
You gotta check yo' self before you wreck yo' self

B, Z, F, Burma, Cambodian, Golden Teacher, Puerto Rico, South American, Costa Rica, African

My name is Ender Wiggen and I will own you soon. Bean is my second in command, he is PC'ing jars right now.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Recased mycelia potency??? [Re: Photoguy]
    #3925154 - 03/16/05 01:28 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Actually...its mixing in good spawn and crapping it down with some shit that increases the contam risk.

Its like saying that watering down liquors wicked cool cause you end up with so much more..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflinePhotoguy
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Registered: 02/24/05
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Re: Recased mycelia potency??? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3925203 - 03/16/05 01:44 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Well, wouldn't you just put it back in a fruiting chamber and reload your casing?

WHO THE FUCK WATERS DOWN LIQUORS?

THAT IS BLASPHEMY TO AN ALCOHOLIC.

Its 12:40 and I'm three beers, two shots, and a margarita already.

But for real, i don't see whats wrong with doing that. Yes, contams probably will be a larger problem, but it also would, maybe, increase the time you can actually use a casing. Its like recharging a battery over and over again.

Please, i am a newbie, still learning SO much, so correct me if im wrong, im just trying to find ways to get the most out of a grow.


--------------------
You gotta check yo' self before you wreck yo' self

B, Z, F, Burma, Cambodian, Golden Teacher, Puerto Rico, South American, Costa Rica, African

My name is Ender Wiggen and I will own you soon. Bean is my second in command, he is PC'ing jars right now.


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: Recased mycelia potency??? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3925255 - 03/16/05 01:56 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

scatmanrav said:Its not potency that degrades, its the mycelium over all. It gets weaker, produces fewer flushes, is way more open to contams, mutants, non spore producing shrooms.




scatmanrav, have you actualy tried this before? At what point ( after how many repeat iterations ) did you experience a high enough degree of senescence to end the cycle and begin fresh?

The question is when does this degradation actualy begin to occur generally? How many times can this be done before the mycelium is basically "spent"? There is ZERO real info on this, but alot of "won't werk... senescence. contams. weak myc. don't bother." -- but yet I've seen/read/heard actual evidence of this method being quite successfull by more than a couple people who've actualy gone and done it.

I don't understand why so many people around here think that myc is so damned short lived, and that refurbishing casings is doomed to failure or not worth trying. Kept flourishing and healthy, under the correct methodology, myc should stay strong for many many flushes.


--------------------
Nature is the Technology of the Divine.


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: Recased mycelia potency??? [Re: Hashface]
    #3925285 - 03/16/05 02:05 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Hashface said:I'm trying to re-case using the casserole flat cake tek. Spent cakes are crumbled, cased, and then rehydrate with a damp layer of vermiculite. Well, I tweaked the tek some, here's the steps I use.






Here's a similar series of steps, for casings.


--------------------
Nature is the Technology of the Divine.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Recased mycelia potency??? [Re: VALIS]
    #3925306 - 03/16/05 02:10 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

There is plenty of info on it. Mycelium degrades over time the more energy it wastes and has to colonize. Pick up some Stamets books if you want to know ALL about it.

This is the same as a grain to grain transfer. How many transfers can you do. Stamets says 3 generations. Now of course this will vary depending on how much spawn you use and how much you vary the substrates (switching up nutrients can help keep it livly). I have ended up with a very cool mutant Z strain after about 5 generations...I couldnt carry it further because the mycelium took forever to colonize and always ended up with bacteria and wouldnt finish up the jars. I cased all the colonized mycelium from this and ended with a bunch of mutants.

I've carried other strains further as well but none of them ended up with a nice col mutant strain..those all went with poor yeild and easy to contaminate.

I still do not understand why you wouldnt just keep them seperate. You dont mix water and alcohol...you keep them seperate...sure if you mix them together it'll last alot longer...but you end up with a whole bunch of shit in the end that wasnt worth it. You can put a casing back in and get flush after flush off of it if the pH was balanced correctly since thats the reason flushes usually stop, not lack of nutes.

After a few generations your wasting your fruiting space...its so easy to make up some grain and colonize it and replace old casings. I dont let casings live past the 3rd or 4th flush usually, because theres no point...that takes 3 or 4 weeks and I can have enough casings in that time to COMPLETLY replace the old shitty ones, instead of being lazy and only making up half the substrate I need and mixing it in with old shit.

Hey though, if you want to drink half the bottle of vodka and just keep filling it back up with water when you drink it half way down, its all the same to me. I'll just drink the whole thing and get a new bottle myself.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: Recased mycelia potency??? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3925415 - 03/16/05 02:46 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

scatmanrav said:
There is plenty of info on it.






http://www.ias.ac.in/resonance/Mar2002/Mar2002p51-55.html

"In some cases, the subterranean mycelium can occupy a very large area and can be several hundred years old. In North America, a colony of a basidiomycetes fungus, Armillaria bulbosa, which had spread to some ten acres in the forest soil was discovered. This colony was estimated to be some 1500 years old and can claim the record for the oldest and largest organism! Fungi can therefore be considered to be very long-lived organisms."

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/1235871#Post1235871
"Now to address the G2G concerns. I wouldn't worry about making several generations as long as the first one is started from a relatively young culture (meaning it hasn't been cloned and fruited and cloned again etc.) Think about this to give you an idea of how many cell divisions it takes to encounter senescence. In GG&MM, stamets recomends that 1 petri be used for liquid culture which then through liquid inoculation of grain, grain to grain transfers (up to 3 generations if sterility is maintained) and finally spawning of bulk sustrates, that one petri can effectively fill an entire warehouse with mycelium. Stamets recomends this method and never once mentions senescence in regards to this.
...
I've seen a 2nd gen qts inoculate 2 gallon bags and the bags then inoculate 3 cubic feet of bulk substrate with absolutely no decline in vigor."


http://www.mssf.org/mnews/0501mn.pdf

"What is known about death in fungi? According to the
German mycologist H. D. Osiewacz, ?the vast majority of
mycelial fungi appear to be immortal? and according to A. J.
F. Griffiths ?organismal death? does not seem to be part of
the reproductive program of these species?.
....
Otherwise a consensus within the mycological community is
that fungi are immortal, and perhaps our most famous example
of an immortal fungus is the humongous fungus Armillaria
bulbosa. A genetic individual in Michigan is estimated to be at
least 1,500 years old."


Stamets, TMC:
"Do not expect mycelium that has been grown over several years at optimum tempuratures to resemble the primary cultrue from which it came."


http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3879043#Post3879043

"I've seen a 2nd gen qts inoculate 2 gallon bags and the bags then inoculate 3 cubic feet of bulk substrate with absolutely no decline in vigor."


http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/584419#Post584419
"My friend uses this technique and has only had minor problems."

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3724922#Post3724922
"I spawned 1 pint of cubensis colonised wbs (wild bird seed) to straw in a giant rubbermaid (roughly 2 foot high & 3 foot length) in October last year. Everytime the first flush is finished & harvested I scrape away the casing (1 part lime, 8 part verm, 8 part peat) and throw it. Then I break the colonised straw underneath in half, and throw one half away.

The remaining half of colonised straw I mix with fresh pasturised straw to start the whole process over.

I've had around 8 flushes (casing removed and part of straw substrate mixed with fresh straw after each first flush, untill fully colonised again, then cased etc) and so far have produced over 250g dry (2.5kg fresh)"


--------------------
Nature is the Technology of the Divine.


Edited by VALIS (03/16/05 02:51 PM)


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: Recased mycelia potency??? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3925461 - 03/16/05 03:00 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

scatmanrav said:Hey though, if you want to drink half the bottle of vodka and just keep filling it back up with water when you drink it half way down.




I nearly shot a mouthfull of beer out my nose after reading that...

Sure bro - keeping mycelium alive and growing ( and fruiting ) is just like pooring water into alcohol.

HA!

( I totally respect you dude, but that was just too much... )


--------------------
Nature is the Technology of the Divine.


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OfflinePhotoguy
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Re: Recased mycelia potency??? [Re: VALIS]
    #3925466 - 03/16/05 03:02 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Valis, are you drinking too? THANK GOD IM NOT THE ONLY ONE DRINKING!


--------------------
You gotta check yo' self before you wreck yo' self

B, Z, F, Burma, Cambodian, Golden Teacher, Puerto Rico, South American, Costa Rica, African

My name is Ender Wiggen and I will own you soon. Bean is my second in command, he is PC'ing jars right now.


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: Recased mycelia potency??? [Re: Photoguy]
    #3925497 - 03/16/05 03:09 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Photoguy said:Valis, are you drinking too?




Fuck man - I'm always drinking.

Currently half-way through a six-pack of Stone IPA.


Quote:

THANK GOD IM NOT THE ONLY ONE DRINKING!




Let the good times roll!

<grinz>


--------------------
Nature is the Technology of the Divine.


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OfflinePhotoguy
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Re: Recased mycelia potency??? [Re: VALIS]
    #3925584 - 03/16/05 03:30 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

12 pack of Tecate, 4 left.


--------------------
You gotta check yo' self before you wreck yo' self

B, Z, F, Burma, Cambodian, Golden Teacher, Puerto Rico, South American, Costa Rica, African

My name is Ender Wiggen and I will own you soon. Bean is my second in command, he is PC'ing jars right now.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Recased mycelia potency??? [Re: VALIS]
    #3925627 - 03/16/05 03:38 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Look what it boils down to is this. Were talking of cubies. Cubies only. Now if I see someone get through 3 flushes..IMO..the substrates spent. If you mix it in with half fresh shit and you can get flushes like this:



Then it would be worth it. Its not gonna happen however. Will it live? Sure. Will it grow mushrooms? Sure. Is it a waste of my space and time because its not optimal? Sure.

Like I said if YOU want to do it, feel free. It works. I'd just rather replace it with a fresh casing than making up some nice fresh spawn and then dumbing it down with some acidic, old shit for my casings.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineHashface
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Re: Recased mycelia potency??? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3925820 - 03/16/05 04:10 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

You probably right...but I'll tell you this when the mycelias done permeating the cake it looks like a brand new cake and the fucking thing fruits like a bastard. I shit you not!


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Recased mycelia potency??? [Re: Hashface]
    #3925849 - 03/16/05 04:21 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Well in actuallity...you could do this ok for a few generations...but I wouldnt go past three...that may be worth it for you to do the less work, compared to the fewer shrooms you'll get. But I wouldnt continue it, or use it myself, just because space is important, I have room for 8 casings these days (bigger ones then the ones I was using you see above) and I want them all to be as good as possible.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineHashface
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 40
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Recased mycelia potency??? [Re: Hotnuts]
    #3925940 - 03/16/05 04:44 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

That's what I'm saying. And, believe it or not it appears to work. It flushes like a new cake.


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OfflineHashface
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Re: Recased mycelia potency??? [Re: VALIS]
    #3926024 - 03/16/05 05:00 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Let me tell you something else I observed: The cake fruits fast!! I'm talking, like faster then a new cake fruits.
Also, I haven't had any problem with contamination. The mycelia grows fast permeating the new substrate within 2 days - 3 tops. You're right about something. People treat cakes like baby's, but I find there pretty durable dudes, the "Teflon cakes" I call them. I got quite a bit of experience with the pf strain and can tell you I've done some shit that goes against convention. I'm going to document some of it and post it with pictures. I got a brandy new 4 megapixel camera.


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OfflineHashface
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Re: Recased mycelia potency??? [Re: VALIS]
    #3926149 - 03/16/05 05:30 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Dude, that's fucking fried. I went back and read your original post and it was like I was reading my own. I did exactly the steps you outlined, without ever reading yours. Well your theory's been proved thus far.


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