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OfflineSeussA
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Potency vs Substrate
    #567624 - 03/02/02 11:52 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I have read several posts that talk about the potency of the shrooms being directly related to the type of substrate used to grow. Most of them claim that BRF produces the most potent fruit, with rye berries in the middle, and compost the weakest. Does anybody have any references regarding this? I am looking for real research (Anno Style), not just a repeat of what people think (which is what most of the posts in my search were). The only thing I could find outside of here was related to increasing yield and not potency. Thanks.


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Offlinebluhoney
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Re: Potency vs Substrate [Re: Seuss]
    #567760 - 03/02/02 03:13 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Ok, Mushrooms thrive on low acidic conditions. You need to have a high nitrogen and a high carbohydrate source in your substrate to actually grow strong mycelia. Note I said strong mycelia and not mushrooms. The reason being, a substrate layer does boost growth, but also, if your moisture content is off, it will cause a struggle and the resuting mushrooms will have weak properties. Then your particular strain where you obtained the spores from could have been grown on the same substrate over and over again, before you obtained spores and just so happen to use the same boring substrate. This also can affect growth. so many variables come into play when wanting to grow very potent fungii. Dont concentrate on so much the substrate as you do the whole process. Just remember to keep the substrate full of carbohydrates and nitrogen and you should be fine.:)bluhoney 


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OfflineBeppoMarx
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Re: Potency vs Substrate [Re: Seuss]
    #567859 - 03/02/02 05:20 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

whoever said brf is the most potent; i dunno. never tried anything else i guess.
all ive done successfully so far is brf and staw and brf; but i can say the little guys arent so little after you spawn some straw; they get big. and i believe more potent too. 1/8 of brf koh samui (about 5 shrooms in my experience with this strain) dont compare to 2 or 3 straw grown mushrooms; which are also larger obviosly. hell ive enen had 30+ gram shrooms growing off straw; man ive never seen shrooms like that before in my life!
im onto rye next; got 9 or so PR jars going on rye now. i love the way mushrooms look grown off rye; they look happy :smile: so i bet they return the favor; but ive yet to try them.
next on my list is millet and oat groats; which i just ordered from ebirdseed.com and should be here shortly and have empty jars awaitin :smile:
no matter what substrate i will try i think i will always spawn straw; it kicks ass and i still have almost a whole bale left! and the bale was like 3 dollars!
sometime i plan on adding worm castings to my spawn; so im thinking my ideal setup eventually will be colonized millet spawning a worm castings/straw substrate. ooh im excited!


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Offlinejosh666
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Re: Potency vs Substrate [Re: BeppoMarx]
    #567990 - 03/02/02 09:03 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

yeah, i'm wondering about bird seed?  I always heard it was better to use then verm/brf.  Why would it be better if the yields were weaker?  That doesn't make very much sense.  I doubt that verm/brf is the best as far as strength goes.....then again, i know nothing :smile:


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Offlinebluhoney
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Re: Potency vs Substrate [Re: josh666]
    #567999 - 03/02/02 09:17 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

This may explain to the reason for the straw yeilds. :smile: I found it on line.:)bluhoney
Growing Mushrooms on Compost

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By preparing compost, you are creating an ideal medium for mycelial growth. Basic mushroom compost is made up of wheat straw, horse manure and gypsum (calcium sulfate). There are a variety of optional ingredients that may be added. A brief outline of some materials used in making composts follows:

Straw:
serves as a carbon source (carbohydrate) source wheat - considered the best - contains xylan oat, barley - break down more rapidly than wheat rye - breaks down slower than wheat also corn cobs, oak and beech leaves, etc.

Other Carbohydrate Sources:
Rice straw, molasses, brewer's grains, cottonseed meal (provides the fatty acid - linoleic acid -which is reported to stimulate yields.)

Manures:
nitrogen source, provides organisms essential to composting horse - most commonly used, fresher the better poultry - higher in nitrogen and phosphorous than horse, not so rich in potash (provided in wheat straw), faster and hotter than horse, use dry pig and sheep - must be used before they become sticky - used partly dry

Other Nitrogen Sources:
Blood meal (dried blood), bone meal urea, ammonium sulfate ((NH4)2SO4) Gypsum: calcium sulfate (CaSO4) - essential to mushroom compost preparation - prevents the compost from becoming too "greasy" - by forming an equilibrium matrix with the water, also helps the colloids to flocculate producing a compost with a more granular structure with increased water holding capacity: provides Ca++ ions; a mineral essential to mushroom growth: helps to prevent the loss of nitrogen (from the breakdown of proteins during the act of composting) by chelating the ammonia

Optional Mineral Sources:
Superphosphate; is said to promote vigorous mycelial growth, but an excess may make the beds too acid too soon which depreciate the crop. 14 lbs./ton of compost should be added at the last turn. It should not be used if there are a lot of droppings 9 fresh) in the compost.

Sulfate of potash; used in synthetic composts. the ubiquitous calcium carbonate.

Activators; compost "activators" can be obtained from nursery and garden stores and assures the presence of the organism essential to composting.

The following recipes create about one half ton of compost. One half ton of compost will provide enough compost for about 60 square feet of beds (surface area). At least one quart of grain spawn per 15 square feet of bed surface should be used.

Sample Compost Recipes:
5 bales wheat straw, half a pickup (half ton) horse manure, third of a pickup of horse manure, 30 lbs. gypsum, 2 lbs. activator, 70 lbs. chicken manure, 4 lbs. Blood meal and 30 lbs. gypsum.

To prepare compost, the straw must be soaked for several days until it just about, but not quite, squeezes water out in your hands. The compost pile is then built by stacking alternating layers of straw, activator, manure and gypsum until all the materials are used up. The stack should be 4-6 feet high.

In about 48 hours the heap will begin to generate heat and will sink somewhat in height. By the fourth to sixth day the temperature in the interior of the pile should reach 160?F (71?C). Temperatures of up to 160?F are due to thermophilic organisms. Temperatures over 170?F are due to chemical bonds being broken as well as other chemical reactions. Temperatures over 160?F are undesirable. After the pile reaches a peak temperature the temp will then begin to fall and the pile should be turned. The pile is turned by moving the middle half third to the bottom, the top and sides to the middle, and the bottom to the top. If any parts appear excessively dry, water should be sprinkled on those parts at this time. There should be no need to add any water after the first turn.

The heap will again heat up and be ready for a second turn after six more days. It should now be turning a rich brown color. With the second turn, no water should be given unless there are very dry patches - wet sparingly. One more turn should complete the mixing but if the temp (peak) is above 130?F a fourth turn may be necessary, (some authors recommend even another turn). If on the final turn the compost is too wet or has a greasy appearance, more gypsum may be added.

When done, the pile should be brown to gold in color, open in texture, and have a rich humus smell. The straw should break readily when twisted, and the compost should be just moist enough to bind together when squeezed in the hand. Initially the compost will have an alkaline pH. When mature and ready for inoculation the pH should be between 7.0 and 8.0. The heating of the compost has pasteurized the compost by the action of the thermophilic organisms. These organisms will not grow at the lower temperature at which mycelium grows. With proper composting the resulting compost will be free from competing organisms. Insects in all their forms will be absent from the medium and the rapid growth of the thermophilic composters will have also eliminated bacterial and fungal competitors.

Inoculating Beds: The compost is then filled in boxes about 10-12 inches deep. The temperature should be 80?F or less and there should be no ammonia fumes present when the boxes or beds are inoculated (spawned). The compost is inoculated with grain spawn either by mixing throughout the compost in the bed or box or by sprinkling a tamped down box with spawn and then covering thin layer of compost. In either cased the compost and spawn are then tamped down and covered with moist newspapers or a sheet of plastic to retain the humidity. The inoculated compost should be allowed to sit for 2-5 weeks (until the mycelium has taken over the compost). It may be necessary to moisten the newspapers occasionally during this time.

When the compost is permeated with mycelium it is then cased for fruit initiation. A drop in temperature and increase in ventilation induce fruiting. As the mushroom and mycelium grows there will be a drop of pH from the excreted metabolites until the pH reaches 5.0-5.5 at which time mushroom production will cease. At this time, the boxes/beds should be removed and the area thoroughly cleaned and sanitized.


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Offlinecookiewhore
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Re: Potency vs Substrate [Re: josh666]
    #568028 - 03/02/02 10:29 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

So what's wrong with whole grain rye kernels. maybe there's a reason as to why it's referred to as BULK substrate.


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Offlinelogosin
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Re: Potency vs Substrate [Re: bluhoney]
    #568681 - 03/03/02 04:02 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

i've been wondering if liquid miracle-gro would be a good substitute for poop. it has three diferent types of nitrogen, phosphate(P205), soluble potash(K2O) and iron, all this is dirived from Ammonium Phosphate; Monopotassium phosphate; potassium nitrate; urea; iron HEDTA. I've also heard that miracle-gro may be toxic for consumable or smokable:) plants, and will this hold true for shrooms? Lastly what about cow poop i live in montana and there's a plethra of that.

By the way this is all for educational perpuses only


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Potency vs Substrate [Re: logosin]
    #568743 - 03/03/02 05:18 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I wouldn't use a plant fertilizer for mushrooms. Anno posted something a few days back (on advanced I think) that had a link to another site that was talking about suppliments you can add, what they do, and how much to use.

Thanks everybody for your responses. They are warmly appreciated.


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Offlinesmiley7
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Re: Potency vs Substrate [Re: BeppoMarx]
    #639293 - 05/21/02 02:57 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

In your post you said youre using rye. Do you think I could replace the brf with rye flour using the PF method instead? Ive been looking everywhere for brf but I cant find it anywhere. I know Im kinda getting off the subject but I realy need some help. Tell me what you think. - smiley7


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InvisibleFloydseamus
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Re: Potency vs Substrate [Re: smiley7]
    #639335 - 05/21/02 03:58 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Grind brown rice into flour.... You can use a supermarkets coffee grinder.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Potency vs Substrate [Re: bluhoney]
    #639345 - 05/21/02 04:05 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

How would one go about breeding a strain of spores that was bred for a specific substrate?

How many generations would it take to see these properties consistently.

If, for example, you wanted spores that were Idealy suited for straw, would you grow the spores on one substrate other than straw, on straw only, or on many diferent substrates other than straw?



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