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Offlinesqueedgie
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A promising means to supercharge potency?
    #4534263 - 08/14/05 05:01 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Last night in my glossing over of the wonderful archives of shroomery.org, I came across Tryptamine Cubensis, an experiment in which Psilocybe Cubensis was successfully made three times more potent by the addition of pure tryptamine HCL into the growing substrate -- tryptamine HCL being the chemical precursor to psilocin/psilocybin. The tryptamine molecule itself is the base of psilocin.

Well, of course, every grower wants some way to intensify his or her product with very minimal effort. Unfortunately the article said nothing of where one can obtain this miracle juice. Underneath the article, someone asked the obvious question:

Quote:

Posted by: crazymanja
2005-04-12 13:18:59

WHATT!?!?!? Where do ya get some of thaT?

Posted by: GemMiner22
2005-04-13 10:29:49

I looked around some...chem supply places have it




This is true. However, to my knowledge, all commercially available tryptamines and even tryptophan (5-HT), with the one exception that is the basis of this thread, are Watched Chemicals by law in the United States, meaning they won't sell these compounds to private persons, and they won't just hand it to you from over the counter; there is a great deal of licensing and legality involved because these chemicals can be used to synthesize basically any hallucinogen one might wish to derive.

So with that officially out of the question for the small-scale sole grower of this much feared fungus, I looked upon my vitamin shelf and pondered the plausibility of melatonin as a strengthener of psilocybe mushrooms -- and the very possibility that melatonin could be the very legal tryptamine gold under our noses.

Melatonin is a tryptamine, although not a psychedelic tryptamine (there are a great many tryptamines that are not psychedelic). It has no known LD50 or toxic dose. It is completely harmless -- your brain produces melatonin naturally when the sun sets every day. It is the hormone that causes you to feel sleepy; melatonin is the regulator of your circadian rhythm. You can take a tablet of melatonin and it will unbelievably improve your quality of rest, and for me intensifies my dreams (but that?s another topic ? I suggest you go to http://www.erowid.org/smarts/melatonin/ for more information on dosing melatonin). Relative to this particular topic though, it's being a tryptamine makes it a near chemical cousin of psilocin, psilocybin (the phosphate ester of base compound psilocin), and all the other tryptamine hallucinogens including DMT and LSD.

Melatonin (5-methoxy-n-acetyl tryptamine) can be found in nearly every drugstore and retail store that carries vitamin or dietary supplements. You can find a bottle of pure melatonin tablets for under $10. My particular bottle was $8 and contains 120 3mg tablets. That's a lot of melatonin considering you only need one tablet to knock you the hell out in under an hour. With that in mind, I realized the ease by which a PF Tek grower could [possibly] strengthen their product very, very cheaply and for a great many flushes with such minimal expenditure.

Additionally, I realized the ease by which a PF Tekker could include a quantity of melatonin into their substrate. One can easily pulverize the chalky tablet(s) thoroughly and merely assimilate the powder into the verm/BRF upon mixing. Easy as pie, and the integration meshes seamlessly with essentially all teks, even casings and high volume grow methods.

But alas, that's about as far is it could be thought out with my current awareness. Can melatonin have use for us? How come no one has said anything about this in the past? How come I can't find any information on people using melatonin to potentiate their product? Is this a completely novel idea?

Below is a structural chemical comparison of the three compounds: tryptamine, melatonin, and psilocin.

Code:
Compound		R2 	N1 	N2 	alpha 	R4 	R5 	R6

tryptamine H H H H H H H
melatonin H acetyl H H H OCH3 H
4-HO-DMT, psilocin H CH3 CH3 H OH H H


Reference: http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/faqs/faqs_tryptamine.shtml

I know relatively nothing about the fungi's chemical synthesis of psilocin de-novo. Is melatonin excluded from being considered a usable "precursor" to psilocin if the substrate is impregnated with it? The only structural differences that distinguish melatonin from pure tryptamine are the acetyl group in position N1 and the OCH3 group in R5. Chemistry experts knowledgeable in this, if you know anything about this please make yourself heard!

Additionally in the diagram on http://deoxy.org/trypgif.htm, melatonin is displayed residing on the same strata as psilocin, unlike tryptophan, tryptamine, and DMT which precede psilocin, the derivative. Does this exclude melatonin from being considered a "precursor?" Can the metabolism of the fungi still make use of the melatonin and up the potency?

There are many unresolved questions as of yet. I suppose the only way we would know for certain is to try it on a PF cake, unless someone here knows something more about the possibility of melatonin.


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InvisibleThinkPink
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Re: A promising means to supercharge potency? [Re: squeedgie]
    #4534283 - 08/14/05 05:08 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

>>How come I can't find any information on people using melatonin to potentiate their product? Is this a completely novel idea?

Unfortunately no, melatonin is, I believe, the stuff in turkey that makes you sleepy.  Several people have offered the idea of adding turkey to a substrate, but good thinking anyway.  What you may want to consider adding N (blood and bone meal both have high levels) to your substrate.  N IS THE ANSWER!!!!  Give those pills atry though.  Oh and if melatonin is not in turkey, ignore this post. :smile:


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Offlinesqueedgie
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Re: A promising means to supercharge potency? [Re: ThinkPink]
    #4534287 - 08/14/05 05:11 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Turkey contains a great deal of tryptophan, which makes you tired because your body then converts the tryptophan to melatonin during metabolism.


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InvisibleThinkPink
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Re: A promising means to supercharge potency? [Re: squeedgie]
    #4534301 - 08/14/05 05:18 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Thats the one, thanks, and yes, people have suggested turkey, but not sure if anyone uses it or not. Someone experianced will chime in, otherwise search for turkey??


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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: A promising means to supercharge potency? [Re: squeedgie]
    #4534305 - 08/14/05 05:19 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Looks like a lot of work and research to me.  Why don't you just spawn to horse poo instead?  That will get you supercharged potency.  :smile:



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Offlinesqueedgie
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Re: A promising means to supercharge potency? [Re: Holydiver]
    #4534335 - 08/14/05 05:34 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Those mushrooms look wondrous! Yours?

Research? Naw...I'm hoping that this can be proven with a simple attempt at impregnating a cake. But I want to know what people think of it, if someone has tried it before, and if the chemistry backs up the theory.

Horse poo would work just as well, I am sure.


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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: A promising means to supercharge potency? [Re: squeedgie]
    #4534366 - 08/14/05 05:46 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, those are mine. I guess I feel that trying to improve cakes is pointless. These teks have been out for awhile, and whenever they are attempted, you never hear much beyond that. If there was a guaranteed way to produce potent shrooms off of cakes, we'd all be using it. Meanwhile, there is horse poo. Get grains down, and spawn them to poo; you'll never mess with another cake again. Approx. 30% potency increase above cakes in my estimation.


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Offlinesqueedgie
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Re: A promising means to supercharge potency? [Re: squeedgie]
    #4534406 - 08/14/05 05:57 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I don't doubt the validity of that method whatsoever.

But you don't take into consideration the poor-man grower who does the PF cakes because it is easiest, cleanest, and least expensive. This is why I think PF is more popular than people throwing down grains and horse poo. Casing is always a much much more labor intensive endeavor from what I have read, but I do not intend to argue the nuances of the method.

It's my interest that with melatonin it could possibly make the PF harvest much more worthwhile for the small scale grower, who only has the experience or the energy to follow the PF tek -- but instead it would reap measurably more potent mushrooms like in the Tryptamine Mushroom experiment, without diverting from path of the tried and true cake method.


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Re: A promising means to supercharge potency? [Re: squeedgie]
    #4534427 - 08/14/05 06:04 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I see where you're coming from, but I'm naturally opposed to cakes because I've found them to be labor and environment intensive. It too, was my belief years ago that cakes were the simpler, inexpensive way to grow shrooms. Years later I find whipping up a few quart jars of grains FAR easier and cheaper than taking the time to make individual 1/2 pint jars that require next-to-perfect moisture levels, verm barriers, 4 holes, etc. In short, I think cakes are an utter pain in the ass. They even require stricter conditions than casings to pin. Not only that, but the substrate (BRF) is underperforming by far.

Ok, I could go on all day long on this, and I just lost my train of thought.

Why devote the time to an antiquated recipe? (cakes) It's like trying to push the limits of a Ford Model-T when you'd be better off getting with the times and driving a Honda.


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Offlinesqueedgie
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Re: A promising means to supercharge potency? [Re: Holydiver]
    #4534446 - 08/14/05 06:12 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I am not devoting time to an antiquated recipe.

I said and have said that melatonin could be applied towards

Quote:

essentially all teks, even casings and high volume grow methods.




The topic of choice here is melatonin, not the value of the PF Tek. Melatonin might even have the capability to TURBOcharge that 30% you say you can achieve with dung.

I merely implied that it would be painless to apply to virtually all methods, even those as stubborn as PF Tek.


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OfflineRamuh
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Re: A promising means to supercharge potency? [Re: Holydiver]
    #4534464 - 08/14/05 06:16 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Whats to say this could limited to only cakes though?

And even if this were only a cake thing, if you could make your cakes even more potent than with the poo, wouldnt you want to do that anyway instead? Id be willing to give this a shot sometime, but probably couldnt try it out for a few weeks. Id say give it a try, see what happens. If nothing happens, you still got some mushrooms :P, and if something does, then you have...awesome mushrooms haha.


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Offlinesqueedgie
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Re: A promising means to supercharge potency? [Re: Ramuh]
    #4534492 - 08/14/05 06:22 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Right.

That the applicability is not limited to only cakes was my point. It's the fact that the insertion of melatonin could be for the benefit of all of our different methods of choice...and that's why there are so many teks each claiming to be the most effective.


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OfflineMagicalMystery
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Re: A promising means to supercharge potency? [Re: squeedgie]
    #4534589 - 08/14/05 06:48 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Since tryptophan is the precursor to tryptamine, why not just get tons of tryptophan, which is totally legal? I'd state that the best method for the highest probability for sucess would be using n,n,-DMT in the substrate. The 4-indolehydroxylation of DMT would lead to 4-HO-DMT.


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Offlinesqueedgie
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Re: A promising means to supercharge potency? [Re: MagicalMystery]
    #4534633 - 08/14/05 07:01 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Related, a comment also from Tryptamine Cubensis:

Quote:

Posted by: ST341THN1NJ4
2005-06-08 21:23:33

what if you were to use DMT instead? phalaris is reported to grow very fast and it would be a renewable resource.




Code:
Compound 		R2 	N1 	N2 	alpha 	R4 	R5 	R6

tryptamine H H H H H H H
DMT H CH3 CH3 H H H H
4-HO-DMT, psilocin H CH3 CH3 H OH H H



You are quite right MagicalMystery, DMT is the nearest precursor compound to psilocin, even closer than pure tryptamine HCL as used in Tryptamine Cubensis. It?s just one ?simple tryptamine derivative? away.

Growing phalaris grass for the purpose of putting its clippings in a substrate (horse dung, grains, and pulverized phalaris grass clippings) would, I think, be the simplest and most intuitive use of the grass. Don?t bother with extracting the DMT selfishly, let the mushroom use it! And it will ? as it?s nearest precursor it will spawn maximally potent mushrooms. As much, or more than what was seen in the Tryptamine Cubensis experiment.

Have you seen the extraction processes for DMT alkaloids from phalaris grasses? It takes a chemistry degree to do that without royally botching the batch. Mother Nature makes it exceedingly difficult for us to isolate the stuff. But maybe it?s because she put it in our bodies for us and never intended that we spend three weeks or more crystallizing the DMT from the phalaris.

But you see, the downfall to this is that you'd probably need to do a case grow, and also there arises the issue of procuring the phalaris grass and maintaining it, although minimal it still requires additional attention besides the mushrooms themselves.

I suppose the nuances towards constructing a Tek for that could be done elsewhere -- melatonin is still by far the easiest to procure.

But, L-Tryptophan is indeed not "totally legal". 5-HT is, but Tryptophan is still considered a controlled substance from 1989 when the FDA banned it.

http://www.erowid.org/smarts/tryptophan/tryptophan_law.shtml


Edited by squeedgie (08/14/05 07:09 PM)


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OfflineHotnuts
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Re: A promising means to supercharge potency? [Re: Holydiver]
    #4534783 - 08/14/05 07:46 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diver said:
Looks like a lot of work and research to me.  Why don't you just spawn to horse poo instead?  That will get you supercharged potency.  :smile:






Cheers to that!


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Offlinesqueedgie
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Re: A promising means to supercharge potency? [Re: Hotnuts]
    #4534807 - 08/14/05 07:55 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

DELICIOUS!


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OfflineJutboy
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Re: A promising means to supercharge potency? [Re: squeedgie]
    #4534844 - 08/14/05 08:03 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Hell I'll give it try.....I'll make a new post and pm you squeedgie.

Thanks for the work.


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Offlinesqueedgie
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Re: A promising means to supercharge potency? [Re: Jutboy]
    #4534855 - 08/14/05 08:08 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Splendid.  :handth:

Give the melatonin a try you mean?  Or the phalaris?


Edited by squeedgie (08/14/05 08:10 PM)


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Invisibleagar
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Re: A promising means to supercharge potency? [Re: squeedgie]
    #4534865 - 08/14/05 08:09 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

P. Cubensis genetics determine what they produce in a fruit body.

IMHO, adding precursors into an optimal substrate does no good.

Simply because anything over & above what mycelium require to form fruit bodies is excreted as waste.

For instance, various vitamins are good for humans, up to a certain point. Doses beyond that point create excess & are simply passed out of our bodies as waste.

The same goes for mycelium, as they gather the nutrient components, with which to form fruit bodies, and in doing so excrete waste metabolites.

The MOST POTENT P. Cubensis I (and my acquaintances) have ever experienced were derived from optimal custom compost, or horse manure based substrates, high in biodegraded fiber & nitrogen.

The only additive being kelp meal, to insure a source of macro vitamins, and micro trace elements.

Compost tailored just for dung lovers: carbon / nitrogen ratio <17:1, nitrogen 2.6-3.1%, phosphorus 0.2-05%, potassium 1.5-2.5%, calcium 1.5-2.5%, available boron <2 ppm, available ammonium <10 ppm, soluble salts 3.0-5 OdS/m.



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Offlinesqueedgie
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Re: A promising means to supercharge potency? [Re: agar]
    #4534873 - 08/14/05 08:12 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

That is true to an extent.

But if that is wholly the case, then explain why this happened? http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/7953


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Cultivation

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