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OfflineEllis Dee
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GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb?
    #388665 - 09/08/01 01:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It occoured to me the other day that during the 1980's when Reagan was president and the cold war all important America engaged in massive spending increases. Those spending increases resulted in mortaging the future prosperity of America in order to outspend the Soviets military spending and eventually caused their collapse. It occoured to me that the Soviets didn't engage in deficit spending as America did. If America had not borrowed all the money it did we would have gone broke and collapsed first. Only our indebtedness and good credit has kept America afloat since Reagan's supply side policies were instituted.

Now another republican president has instituted the same supply side fiscal policies that will result in record peace time deficit spending. This peace time deficit spending serves no purpose other than to give the wealthiest Americans more money in the short term. This deficit spending is not going to strengthen America or serve any important international purpose as it can be argued that Reagan's did.

What long term ramifications will this frivelous peace time deficit spending have? It will no doubt cause our record trade deficit to increase quite a bit puting more Americans out of good jobs and in to lower paying service jobs. The dollar might weaken in the long run as we become more and more over-extended with our national debt. It's hard to say what else could happen. Only time will tell but I doubt that it will be good for the future of America.

Any thoughts any of you have on what I've said please feel free to share. Thanks



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineSyngenor
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #388769 - 09/08/01 05:07 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The bomb exploded 30 years ago when Nixon ended the Bretton-Woods currency system. From that point on, the value of currency has been a measure of how much production the ruling classes can beat out of a worker with a stick. They can print all the paper money they want to for their deficit and compensate inflationary pressure merely by increasing social aggression. To that end they often create false pretenses for more deficit spending, since it makes them more powerful (which in turn leads to more deficit spending). However, Dubya has done a lousy job in creating those false pretenses. Deficit spending does not only give the elites more money in the short term; it keeps making them richer and richer and richer in a neverending spiral. Without the gold standard, there is as much funding availible as there is potential human suffering; the value of currency will be maximized by turning the whole world into one big Auschwitz.





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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Syngenor]
    #401808 - 09/23/01 06:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not quite sure but I think the ticking timebomb of illogical GOP econimic policy might have just blown up. Goodbye revinue surplus, welcome back massive GOP deficit spending. If it hadn't been for that moronic tax cut we'de still have a surplus for the forseeable future. Ha.



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineMrKurtz
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #404176 - 09/25/01 11:31 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Damn, exactly my thoughts on the issue. This tax cut is one of the most troubling moves I've seen in a while. I guess Bush is pretty lucky about the recent events... before this i haven't seen him make one good move. Huh, strange how a massive tragedy can make a so far pathetic presidency into a memorable one.



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Offlinechuwie
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Syngenor]
    #404278 - 09/26/01 12:23 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

this post intrigues me, ive always felt/known that the 'gap' between the rich/poor has been increasing - but i must admit i dont know much about world economics or the history of american economics & policies.. can anyone suggest some reading material? (online maybe? ;)

thanks

The sea was red and the sky was grey, wondered how tomorrow could ever follow today.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #404567 - 09/26/01 08:50 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

The surplus is ours and we deserve our money back. we earned it. I say instead of worrying about the surplus we focus on the federal programs that give money away. Eliminate the welfare programs, WIC, and other federal dependant programs. I once heard that there was a 250,000 dollar federally funded program to study the mating habits of the butterfly. Get rid of these dependant programs and we will never run in the red.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineMrKurtz
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #404803 - 09/26/01 02:23 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

well.. 250,000 dollars on the mating habits of butterflies is pretty much nothing for the government to spend. If someone wants to study that, why not let them? But, this tax cut gives people a little extra cash, and it costs the country tens of billions of dollars. If we don't give funding to science, even if its as simple as the mating habits of butterflies, how will anything be learned? And, if its up to the government to choose whos studies are stupid and whos aren't, isn't that undemocratic? The tax cut was like 1 extra pay check for pretty much every american, it doesn't affect there life at all but can hurt the country quite badly in the long run.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: MrKurtz]
    #404855 - 09/26/01 03:05 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

****well.. 250,000 dollars on the mating habits of butterflies is pretty much nothing for the government to spend****

with that thinking $600 per family is a drop in the bucket.  There are many programs that are useless that add up after time.

****But, this tax cut gives people a little extra cash, and it costs the country tens of billions of dollars****

Basic economics tells you if you have a surplus of money it doesn't cost you anything if you spend that money.  In a perfect economic scenerio the government would have ZERO dollars at the end of the fiscal year after all the bills are paid.  I'll Put it to ya this way: If you make $4000 dollars a month and your bills are $3000 what do you do with that money? you can save it because it's your money or you can spend it on anything you want and you will not be in debt.  But what if the government charges you $4000 but you really only owe $3000?  Do you think you deserve your money back?

****If we don't give funding to science, even if its as simple as the mating habits of butterflies, how will anything be learned? ***

I'll use stem research as an example, the private industry involved with stem cell research ia a wash with money and can supply the research more than the government can.  The medical industry makes an enormous profit through their sale of medicine and research and development.  In a capatilistic society private industries have to be innovating and not be supported by the government who'll control what and how much can be studied.

****if its up to the government to choose whos studies are stupid and whos aren't, isn't that undemocratic? ****

exactly. The government should say if you want to research the butterfly find private funding or put it up to the people to decide via the voting booth.

****The tax cut was like 1 extra pay check for pretty much every american, it doesn't affect there life at all but can hurt the country quite badly in the long run.****

How will it hurt the country if it is taken from the surplus?  Noone has been able to answer that one.....and it was less than a paycheck..but it did become a down payment on my new windows..believe me i needed those &^%$^%# windows..;)

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick  *  there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineMrKurtz
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #405176 - 09/26/01 07:29 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

well, couldnt the government invest the money into programs like Social Security, seeing as how there will soon be a massive amount of senior citizens and i doubt theres gonna be enough money to give them all.

"But what if the government charges you $4000 but you really only owe $3000? Do you think you deserve your money back?"

isn't that what tax returns are for? if the country has a "drop in the bucket" leftover, why not invest it into things to improve the country? $600 dollars a family is alot of money...



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: MrKurtz]
    #405203 - 09/26/01 07:48 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

****couldnt the government invest the money into programs like Social Security****

and now you see the down fall of the rediculus program called social security. Social security was set up so the workers of the country would support the retired. The program is doing just as it was intended on doing...and that's failure. The social security program is not a federally funded (nor should it be) program rather a people funded program. The social security program should be changed so the people that are in my generation and beyond can invest and be in physical control of their money. Rather than getting a meager 3% (inflation is around 3%)....besides a large amount of these seniors didn't put in a 100th of what they are collecting, and that's factoring in inflation.

****isn't that what tax returns are for? *****

If you get taxes back then the government taxed you too much...kinda pisses me off really. But it's not as simple as the example i gave you. You never really get back what you deserve and i just want the money that i earned in my pocket.

****if the country has a "drop in the bucket" leftover, why not invest it into things to improve the country?****

Why?..it's not their money? If i steal a 100 bucks from you and give it to charity, am i justified? The government, except in rare occasions, doesn't improve the country. Private innovations are usually the improvers...name a program that the government has created recently that has improved the country and i can find an example of lost freedom, money or competative rights.

****$600 dollars a family is alot of money...*****

Your right it is a lot of money...it's to bad the government feels as if they should be able to keep these families' $600 (actually it's more)

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #405214 - 09/26/01 08:03 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Innvertigo, no, the surplus is not yours. It is your government's. And welfare is one of our most important social programs. Do you really want to starve to death a couple million welfare kids? That sounds pretty heartless of you.



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #405412 - 09/26/01 10:35 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

****Innvertigo, no, the surplus is not yours. It is your government's****

No it's mine. It's quite simple if you think about it. The government, at least in a representative republic, doesn't have the right to keep what is not theirs....perhaps a socialist one would suit you better? That way the government can take what they want and give you what they think you deserve. In a capatilistic society it doesn't work that way, in fact keeping money which is not your own is anticapitist. If you are anticapatilist then i can see why you would say the money is the governments.

****And welfare is one of our most important social programs****

Then why does it form a dependance and not a helping hand? A welfar mother can make upwards of $27,000 a year if she plays her cards right. This is not an incentive to go back to work, at Mcdonalds where she'll make about $17,000 while working 40+ hours. I'm all for helping those who are willing to hep themselves and NOT awarding those on welfare when they have extra children that they cannot support....basic economics.

****Do you really want to starve to death a couple million welfare kids? ****

When did i say this? Your assuming and again you know what they say when you assume

****That sounds pretty heartless of you.****

I was wondering how long this topic would go before someone would get personal. What's heartless is the present way of doing things, for example: "We care about the homeless so as a gesture of good will we have bought you a shiney new shopping cart because we care." My way of helping that person is to get them a job (you can insert any social problem into this scenerio and it would suffice)

The heartless one's are those that think that these people are unable to work and contribute to society i want them to have the opportunity not the reliance on the government.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #406351 - 09/27/01 04:37 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

So if the government doesn't help starving kids on welfare, will you? We don't need a middle man to redistribute what is ours in the first place. If you see a family having trouble keeping food in their mouths, the community should rally together and all pitch in on helping them.



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InvisibleLenore
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: ]
    #406896 - 09/27/01 11:28 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Government give us our money back?
is this a joke?

Unfortunatly many 'Mericans think that taxes are robbing them of their money. where do roads come from? how does our society ensure the safety of foods and drugs? what about national security? these are all tax essential programs. sadly many selfish people think taxation is wrong, well I'll tell you what's fuckin wrong.
Those who steal our money are called capitalist. Surplus value exerted in our labors is taken from us. If bush really wanted to hand us a tax refund our govt. would simply quite pandering to capital interest. that's where our money we deserve really resides, in the coffers of a few rich men.




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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Lenore]
    #407281 - 09/28/01 08:32 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

****Government give us our money back? is this a joke? ****

ah...no.

****Unfortunatly many 'Mericans think that taxes are robbing them of their money****

Excessive taxing is wrong. I have no problem with a certain amount to run the country and i would be more than willing to give "my" part. However the mating habit of the butterfly is not something i am pleased to pay for.

***how does our society ensure the safety of foods and drugs? ***

And the government can do this?...now that's funny. the food i can see not the drugs.

****these are all tax essential programs. sadly many selfish people think taxation is wrong*****

wow...making money and wanting to keep it is now selfish. hmm that's sad. Well i'm sure you donate your entire check to these programs and will send back your tax refunds eh?

****Those who steal our money are called capitalist****

please explain to me how capitalism steals money?....unless you are not in favor of competition.

****Surplus value exerted in our labors is taken from ****

how?..just because you say it doesn't make it so.

****If bush really wanted to hand us a tax refund our govt. would simply quite pandering to capital interest. ****

or funding the welfare leaches and other liberal socialized programs who suck the money from the workers pulling the united states economy.

****in the coffers of a few rich men****

wow..a grand case of class envy

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleLenore
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #407526 - 09/28/01 03:04 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

whenever you exert your body or mind you produce value in your labor. When you are paid you recieve less than you deserve. The wealth you have created is taken from you, it is called surplus value, or to your boss, profit.
simple.



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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #408047 - 09/29/01 05:06 AM (16 years, 26 days ago)

In reply to:

The surplus is ours and we deserve our money back. we earned it. I say instead of worrying about the surplus we focus on the federal programs that give money away. Eliminate the welfare programs, WIC, and other federal dependant programs. I once heard that there was a 250,000 dollar federally funded program to study the mating habits of the butterfly. Get rid of these dependant programs and we will never run in the red.




Innvertigo, maybe you did't know it, but 60 - 70 years ago before America began spraying for mosquitos butterflies were common. They were as common as bees and much more common than moths. Spraying for mosquitos had the side effect of killing the vast majority of the beautiful butterflys. Now this is a bit off topic, but I think that one of the reasons we're here on earth is to be a good steward to nature, and we haven't been a good steward to the butterflies. If the federal government can spend a few millio dollars to repopulate the butterflies they definatly should. There's been 3 generations now that have grown up without seeing all the beautiful butterflies that once fluttered around so prettily. If we can give the blessing of butterflies to our posterity then lets do it!

And as far as our gov determining who's studies are 'stupid' being undemocratic you bet it is. So what?

In reply to:

****But, this tax cut gives people a little extra cash, and it costs the country tens of billions of dollars****

Basic economics tells you if you have a surplus of money it doesn't cost you anything if you spend that money. In a perfect economic scenerio the government would have ZERO dollars at the end of the fiscal year after all the bills are paid. I'll Put it to ya this way: If you make $4000 dollars a month and your bills are $3000 what do you do with that money? you can save it because it's your money or you can spend it on anything you want and you will not be in debt. But what if the government charges you $4000 but you really only owe $3000? Do you think you deserve your money back?




Hmm, Basic economics tells you if you have a surplus of money it doesn't cost you anything if you spend that money.

It doesn't cot you money to spend money. Now that's a flat out lie. Spending money is spending money and it cost's whoever spends it money. I think that's the most ludicrous thing I've heard you say yet.

I'll Put it to ya this way: If you make $4000 dollars a month and your bills are $3000 what do you do with that money? you can save it because it's your money or you can spend it on anything you want and you will not be in debt. But what if the government charges you $4000 but you really only owe $3000? Do you think you deserve your money back?

I think this is really the point, we are in debt by trillions of dollars and the GOP prefers to go further in debt by cutting revinue and drastically increasing federal spending so that we'll go even more in debt. It's not about giving back what's ours, it's about not paying back what we owe.

That's one of the things that puzzles me about GOP economics. The GOP that is allegedly fiscally conservative is dead set on tremendous liberal spending increases and deficit spending. And the rank and file GOP just go along with the fiscal liberalness.

In reply to:

****The tax cut was like 1 extra pay check for pretty much every american, it doesn't affect there life at all but can hurt the country quite badly in the long run.****

How will it hurt the country if it is taken from the surplus? Noone has been able to answer that one.....and it was less than a paycheck..but it did become a down payment on my new windows..believe me i needed those &^%$^%# windows..




It hurt the country by reducing the resources available to pay off the debt. By going back to deficit spending interest rates may be forced up and the dollar may weaken against foreign currencies. Deficit spending in peace time with a good economy doesn't make sense.

In reply to:

****Innvertigo, no, the surplus is not yours. It is your government's****

No it's mine. It's quite simple if you think about it. The government, at least in a representative republic, doesn't have the right to keep what is not theirs....perhaps a socialist one would suit you better? That way the government can take what they want and give you what they think you deserve. In a capatilistic society it doesn't work that way, in fact keeping money which is not your own is anticapitist. If you are anticapatilist then i can see why you would say the money is the governments.




The point is that in that case the national debt is yours too and you prefer to continue paying exorbatant interest on that debt, spending huge sums of money unproductivly, as opposed to paying down the debt. By paying down the debt the money that is used to pay interest becomes available to pay the debt down further and further. By refunding money now costs trillions of dollars in the long run. There would be room for a tax cut or GOP spending increases after the debt was paid down but instead they want to spend for today without regard to the future economic stability of the country, the GOP has become the true big liberal spender.

In reply to:

****if the country has a "drop in the bucket" leftover, why not invest it into things to improve the country?****

Why?..it's not their money? If i steal a 100 bucks from you and give it to charity, am i justified? The government, except in rare occasions, doesn't improve the country. Private innovations are usually the improvers...name a program that the government has created recently that has improved the country and i can find an example of lost freedom, money or competative rights.




I knew that's what you really believed, that taxation is theft. That tired old libertarian mantra 'taxation is theft'. You know that's a crock of lies. I remember in one of our former debates I even made the point of pointing out that taxes are the price we pay for our civilization and you had the nerve to act like I was rambeling without a point. Some libertarion nut always ends up saying that taxation is theft and I was just trying to make a pre-emptive argument to that. You've shown your true economic beliefs, they're not conservative as you've claimed so often, they're libertarian...

In reply to:

****Do you really want to starve to death a couple million welfare kids? ****

When did i say this? Your assuming and again you know what they say when you assume




And what do they say about those that don't plan for the future. Cause and effect. If welfare was eliminated the food would be taken from the mouths of a couple million underprivilaged children.

In reply to:

****That sounds pretty heartless of you.****

I was wondering how long this topic would go before someone would get personal. What's heartless is the present way of doing things, for example: "We care about the homeless so as a gesture of good will we have bought you a shiney new shopping cart because we care." My way of helping that person is to get them a job (you can insert any social problem into this scenerio and it would suffice)

The heartless one's are those that think that these people are unable to work and contribute to society i want them to have the opportunity not the reliance on the government.




Don't give me that. You make more personal attacks than anyone. And what's more you purposfully twist the words of others into sounding like they said somthing they didn't more than anyone. You're not innocent.



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #408076 - 09/29/01 06:24 AM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Innvertigo,
In reply to:

****Unfortunatly many 'Mericans think that taxes are robbing them of their money****

Excessive taxing is wrong. I have no problem with a certain amount to run the country and i would be more than willing to give "my" part. However the mating habit of the butterfly is not something i am pleased to pay for.




You apparently have a problem with paying money for welfare children to have food and not starve to death too... And you seem to have a problem with paying back your share of the national debt [I make that assumption from your previous statements about wanting your money back].

In reply to:

***how does our society ensure the safety of foods and drugs? ***

And the government can do this?...now that's funny. the food i can see not the drugs.




And can you see the virus's, bacteria, and minute amounts of fecal material in your food, NO YOU CAN"T. You can not ensure that the your food or drugs you purchase from companies are pure without government certification. And if you say you can you're a liar.

In reply to:

or funding the welfare leaches and other liberal socialized programs who suck the money from the workers pulling the united states economy.




The welfare leaches, like innocent children born in to poverty and orphans and the disabled? My O my, you are a heartless one...

In reply to:

****in the coffers of a few rich men****

wow..a grand case of class envy




Again you have nothing to use as an argument so you resort to accusations of class envy. Tsk Tsk Tsk...





--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Lenore]
    #408082 - 09/29/01 06:49 AM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Comrade Lenore,

You said:
In reply to:

whenever you exert your body or mind you produce value in your labor. When you are paid you recieve less than you deserve. The wealth you have created is taken from you, it is called surplus value, or to your boss, profit.
simple.




Now you aren't the only one that ever read the 'Manifesto of the Communist Party' by Comrade Karl Marx. I read it in high school and instantly realized what a bunch of rubbish it was.

Your statments about the worker adding to the value of raw materials is taken directly from the communist manifesto. Comrade Marx explained it about workers taking wood and making a chair out of it for their boss. Marx said the difference in value between the materials that the chair was made from and the sale price of the chair is the value of the craftsman's work and that they recieve an hourly wage for their work instead of the value of their work is exploitation by the capatalist chair selling guy.

Well, back in the days the Manifesto was written there did exist that sort of pure exploitation by capatalists making nothing but tremendous unreasonable profits at the expense and detrement of the workers. But that type of pure capatalist exploitation does not exist in America anymore and probably never will again. These days the profit made by the capatalist goes to make his business more efficient, for taxes to benefit the worker and business owner, for new equipment, for supplies, and for fair wages for the employee, etcetera. We now have a fair system with a minimum wage and employee benefits and training. And it's not like you are forced to work for a company. If you want you can start your own business and become the capatalist, and you might even be able to get government help for your new enterprise.

So I hate to break it to you but communism is nice in theory but it doesn't work in practice and the manifesto you took your example from is in no way applicable to our society today. It's not just wrong, it's outdated and wrong.




--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineMrKurtz
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Registered: 08/04/01
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #408128 - 09/29/01 10:23 AM (16 years, 26 days ago)

"Then why does it form a dependance and not a helping hand? A welfar mother can make upwards of $27,000 a year if she plays her cards right. This is not an incentive to go back to work, at Mcdonalds where she'll make about $17,000 while working 40+ hours. I'm all for helping those who are willing to hep themselves and NOT awarding those on welfare when they have extra children that they cannot support....basic economics"

so, you think its better if the mom is working her ass off and still doesn't have enough money to live? if you think ANYONE can support a family off 17k a year, you really don't understand what welfare is then. Maybe the system is flawed, and money should go to people who are working at shitty ass jobs, but just because it needs improving doesn't mean it should be removed.

"name a program that the government has created recently that has improved the country and i can find an example of lost freedom, money or competative rights."

financial aid programs maybe? or are you against poor people going to college to? how about public school fundings? and if you think we could fit all these children into private schools, you are badly mistaken. And about social security, it reduced povery among the elderly from about 50% to 12%, maybe you don't care about being dirt poor when you're old, but i do.





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