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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Fuck Welfare!
    #1602380 - 06/02/03 08:21 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Bet you never expected me to say that. Let me explain. While I do not for a second believe that the majority of people on welfare are just plain lazy, I don't think welfare is the answer. We need to go to the source of the problem.

So let's examine what exactly the problem is:
The poor have been cheated out of a ton of opportunities that most of us take for granted. Most poor people attend underfunded inner-city schools that often do not have computers, libraries, or many other such facilities. The classrooms are often over-crowded, making it difficult to learn. The teachers tend to be afraid of the students. These schools get far less funding than public schools in more affluent areas. This is partly the government's fault, but mostly it's the voters' fault. Voters continually strike down ballot measures which increase funding for schools in general, and especially for inner-city schools.

So to all you people who say poor people are lazy and stupid, cast your vote to get them a better education, and then we'll see how lazy and stupid they are. Of course, I have only identified a small part of a much more complicated problem. I will bring up other causes of poverty in future posts.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinerommstein2001
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: silversoul7]
    #1602458 - 06/02/03 08:50 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I grew up in an inner-city with under-funded schools and teachers getting beat. MANY of the people there grew up and got good jobs, good pay, etc. etc. etc. Bad schooling is just another excuse used by the lazy. If you have the will to succeed, no matter where you are you will succeed.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: rommstein2001]
    #1602465 - 06/02/03 08:52 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I agree that some of the best students from inner-city schools can make it, but not the average student. Seriously, what percentage of the students there went on to college?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineSolo
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: silversoul7]
    #1602508 - 06/02/03 09:09 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Bet you never expected me to say that.


Your right, I didn't.

Let me explain. While I do not for a second believe that the majority of people on welfare are just plain lazy,


Neither do I (and I bet you didn't expect ME to say THAT).



I don't think welfare is the answer.

We agree here.

We need to go to the source of the problem.
So let's examine what exactly the problem is:
The poor have been cheated out of a ton of opportunities that most of us take for granted.


I grew up poor, and my mother and father grew up on welfare and we DO NOT AGREE that poor people have been CHEATED.

They do not HAVE the same opportunites as wealthy people. That is very different than BEING CHEATED. Life is not fair.

Most poor people attend underfunded inner-city schools that often do not have computers, libraries, or many other such facilities.


That may be true. However, many other things are also true. Many come from single parent homes. Many parents have children when they can not afford them. The system is set up so TAXES pay for children that people can not afford. That is bad. The problems start LONG BEFORE poor children enter school.

With a solid, stable, SUPPORTIVE family poor children can and do do quite well. With the consistent loving involvement with capable parents children EXCEL. They can get scholorships and if not, GRANTS for college. That's right. FREE COLLEGE!


The classrooms are often over-crowded, making it difficult to learn.


Yes, true. But with good parenting children will apply themselves with study AFTER SCHOOL. If parents are not able or willing to provide this support and guidance they should not be parents...ESPECIALLY if they are poor.


The teachers tend to be afraid of the students.


No shit dude. I live in the hood and I don't blame them. Other students are afraid of many students, and with good reason! The problem starts long before school age.

These schools get far less funding than public schools in more affluent areas.

Yep. They do. Life is not fair. I don't think wealthy people owe me anything. I grew up poor.

This is partly the government's fault, but mostly it's the voters' fault.


Blame does not solve anything. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY is the only solution.

Voters continually strike down ballot measures which increase funding for schools in general, and especially for inner-city schools.

The pubilc school system sucks and should be overhauled. Changing the system so that the school system is not run by the government is the anwser. There should be competing school systems so that the shitty ones can be taken over by companies that produce results.


So to all you people who say poor people are lazy and stupid, cast your vote to get them a better education, and then we'll see how lazy and stupid they are.


Sorry dude, but that is not the anwser.

Of course, I have only identified a small part of a much more complicated problem. I will bring up other causes of poverty in future posts.




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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: Solo]
    #1602534 - 06/02/03 09:17 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I'm getting free college.

Free college rawks.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: silversoul7]
    #1602535 - 06/02/03 09:17 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

What you don't seem to understand is it IS the students. It's not cool to do school work, get good grades, learn how to spell, speak clear and concise English, and the like. As a business owner I can tell you, and those who will admit it will most likely agree, I'll hire the applicant who seems to care. This includes all the above factors. When the students don't care enough to get good grades and make themselves presentable, THEY suffer by not being hired. Customers, like it or not, often judge a store by the actions, demeanor, and yes, looks. They don't want to have to strain to figure out if someone is a moron or just didn't take the time to learn how to communicate.

These skills don't require expensive schools. If someone wants to learn to spell they can. As a matter of fact in this country, anyone (not retarded or otherwise learning impaired) CAN learn whatever they wish in their pre college-years. IF THEY CARE TO.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: Solo]
    #1602582 - 06/02/03 09:32 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

You've identified another source of poverty: unwanted children. While it's true that people shouldn't be having children that they can't afford to raise, the children are left in a situation which they do not deserve to be in. My proposed solution(a lot of conservatives are not gonna like this): Make both abortions and birth control more readily available and convenient.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: silversoul7]
    #1602633 - 06/02/03 09:47 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I personally hope the government is working on a new designer virus that leaves it's victims perfectly healthy, but sterile.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1602657 - 06/02/03 09:54 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I personally hope the government is working on a new designer virus that leaves it's victims perfectly healthy, but sterile.



Yes, and then smears it all over food stamps and welfare checks.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1602704 - 06/02/03 10:05 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Zoning also affects a student's likelihood of escaping poverty. If the poor are isolated from the rest of society, they can be shoved aside and disregarded. However, if you bring middle-income housing closer to lower-income housing, you bring with it better schools and facilities.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: silversoul7]
    #1602730 - 06/02/03 10:13 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Most poor people attend underfunded inner-city schools that often do not have computers,




not to split hais but the detroit public school gets more per student than private and home schooled children..

Quote:

schools get far less funding than public schools in more affluent areas.




see above.

Quote:

This is partly the government's fault, but mostly it's the voters' fault. Voters continually strike down ballot measures which increase funding for schools in general, and especially for inner-city schools.




Money has NEVER been the cure to these problems. There are THOUSANDS of reports out there that prove this. I will agree that classrooms should be smaller and in better repair but what happened to the money that they were given by the state and federal govt? maybe the cause of the problems is within the administration and teacher level?

It is NOT the voters fault. The voters want vouchers. This is a continuing theme in the inner city but sniviling little liberals think that they know better as to what inner city people want. (Even though a majority of inner city families are in favor of vouchers)

Quote:

So to all you people who say poor people are lazy and stupid, cast your vote to get them a better education, and then we'll see how lazy and stupid they are. Of course, I have only identified a small part of a much more complicated problem. I will bring up other causes of poverty in future posts.




This whole thread had nothing to do with welfare and everything to do with the public education failure.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: silversoul7]
    #1603047 - 06/02/03 11:55 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Good post. This is sort of what I was driving at in the other welfare thread--exploring a long-term reform that gets past the symptoms.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: hongomon]
    #1603304 - 06/03/03 01:30 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

The problem is that the conservatives don't favor any reform that has any positive effect on the poor(except for vouchers).


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1603370 - 06/03/03 02:00 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, and then smears it all over food stamps and welfare checks.

Don't forget wheelchairs.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: silversoul7]
    #1603419 - 06/03/03 02:24 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Unfortunately it was decided in the early 80's to follow economic policies that would result in the creation of enormous numbers of poor people with zero opportunity. This situation didn't happen by "accident". The rich have decided they can make more profit by driving down wages, destroying unions and creating an enormous army of poor. Then use a subservient media to attack them for being "idle" and hope the rest of the population are too fucking stupid to see through it.


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1603434 - 06/03/03 02:31 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I think that our welfare problem needs to be addressed as such:

firstly, everyone one welfare is already recieving pay from the government, and medical benefit from the government. Lets put them to work doing anything. Shoveling snow off sidewalks, helping the elderly. If the welfare momma's had a day care for other welfare momma's kids, hopefuly SOME of the mothers would have the opportunity to get good jobs. The able-bodied people on welfare could go out and pick trash up off the street, whatever. The quality of the work we assign to them doesn't matter, because we'd still be giving them the same things they are beign given now, and they aren't doing anything. Therefore, anything we can have them do to contribute to the community will be MORE than they are doing now. Daycare centers run by welfare recipients for welfare recipients kids would, I'm sure, lessen the burden on a large majority of welfare families, and help them get decent jobs (or education, or learn a trade)

Secondly, we need to have the welfare recipients to STOP PROCREATING AT SUCH A FAST RATE. This isn't a matter of me disliking them and wanting their to be less of them, it's a matter of "if you can't support your FIRST kid without government money, why have another kid" (of course, that kid gets them more money too)

Third, drug testing for all welfare recipients. I am sure that this will draw alot of heat, but I think it's for the best. the argument that people make for legalizing drugs is "Why can't educated adults do as they please in the privacy of their own homes?". I agree that their isn't really a reason, UNLESS the person we are speaking of has claimed themselves so destitute that they can't work at all (for some reason). If you can afford drugs, you are being given too much money.

Forth, the US govt needs to organize a system of trade-schools where companies (constrction, electrician, etc) come in and teach welfare recipets how to work. They get soem sort of certification, and in return, the company gets people that are trained to perform certain tasks that benefit the company. This would lead to education of the welfare recipients, and give them an easy lead into a job.

Welfare is supposed to carry people through tough times, not become a way of life for people. If it's somewhat difficult being on the conditions I outlined, well, maybe it'll inspire them to get soem education, or find a decent job. I personally would never demean anyone else for any job they are doing (it's just as important for someone to wax the floors in a hospital as it is for their to be nurses there), so these peopel shouldn't feel as if the jobs they'd be required to do while on welfare (trash pickup, for example) are demeaning. Maybe being compelled into some sort of less-than-glamorous labor as that would give them the push they need to attend some sort of classes, learn a job, and get a job.



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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1603684 - 06/03/03 06:02 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Yes, and then smears it all over food stamps and welfare checks.

Don't forget wheelchairs.



Thanks, almost forgot those. Hearings aids and seeing eye dogs as well.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1603791 - 06/03/03 08:31 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Don't forget money.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1603793 - 06/03/03 08:33 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

What about Medical Marijuana users? I wouldn't want someone with fused vertabrae losing their disability because they were using an unrecognized medicine to treat pain.


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: silversoul7]
    #1603986 - 06/03/03 11:08 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I live in a town which is actually the only county in CA which allows homeless to live here. They have set up a few homeless camps near the river and under this bridge. So I see a lot of ho-bo's walking around asking for quarters and shit.

Just recently I've been pissed off by it.

They get annoying as hell...but then I realize...these people (mostly men) are either fucked up from drugs, or just have some sort of mental problem. I think more often than not they have mental problems...They do not think correctly...they dont even really smell like alcohol ever. I dont ever seeing them drinking.

I have a few stories about some of them. A lot play guitar and make money from that on the street. THis one ho-bo told me NEVER to give stuff to other bums (even himself) because they get through just fine. I asked him "how do you make money?!" he said that he gets like $100 per day from playing his gutair on the street. So I think he either must be lazy or just doesn't care about getting a real job...witht hat money he could buy some nice clothes, a razor and a shower to maybe get a job.

But what it ocmes down to is that to get a job, you need an address, or a phone number. How, when you're SO LOW, that you dont have either of those, and there is no way of having a real income, do you get an address to actually get an okay part-time job!?!?!

Seems like they should get some federal money for a time period...only for 6-8 months, while they try to get a job. Then they should have to check into the office or whatever they get the government funding from...if they are still not making progress, then they shouldn't get money anymore


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