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 Ellis Dee
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 GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? 
#388665 - 09/08/01 11:57 AM (23 years, 9 days ago) |
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It occoured to me the other day that during the 1980's when Reagan was president and the cold war all important America engaged in massive spending increases. Those spending increases resulted in mortaging the future prosperity of America in order to outspend the Soviets military spending and eventually caused their collapse. It occoured to me that the Soviets didn't engage in deficit spending as America did. If America had not borrowed all the money it did we would have gone broke and collapsed first. Only our indebtedness and good credit has kept America afloat since Reagan's supply side policies were instituted.
Now another republican president has instituted the same supply side fiscal policies that will result in record peace time deficit spending. This peace time deficit spending serves no purpose other than to give the wealthiest Americans more money in the short term. This deficit spending is not going to strengthen America or serve any important international purpose as it can be argued that Reagan's did.
What long term ramifications will this frivelous peace time deficit spending have? It will no doubt cause our record trade deficit to increase quite a bit puting more Americans out of good jobs and in to lower paying service jobs. The dollar might weaken in the long run as we become more and more over-extended with our national debt. It's hard to say what else could happen. Only time will tell but I doubt that it will be good for the future of America.
Any thoughts any of you have on what I've said please feel free to share. Thanks
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Syngenor
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Ellis Dee]
#388769 - 09/08/01 03:07 PM (23 years, 9 days ago) |
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The bomb exploded 30 years ago when Nixon ended the Bretton-Woods currency system. From that point on, the value of currency has been a measure of how much production the ruling classes can beat out of a worker with a stick. They can print all the paper money they want to for their deficit and compensate inflationary pressure merely by increasing social aggression. To that end they often create false pretenses for more deficit spending, since it makes them more powerful (which in turn leads to more deficit spending). However, Dubya has done a lousy job in creating those false pretenses. Deficit spending does not only give the elites more money in the short term; it keeps making them richer and richer and richer in a neverending spiral. Without the gold standard, there is as much funding availible as there is potential human suffering; the value of currency will be maximized by turning the whole world into one big Auschwitz.
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Ellis Dee
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Syngenor]
#401808 - 09/23/01 04:14 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm not quite sure but I think the ticking timebomb of illogical GOP econimic policy might have just blown up. Goodbye revinue surplus, welcome back massive GOP deficit spending. If it hadn't been for that moronic tax cut we'de still have a surplus for the forseeable future. Ha.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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MrKurtz
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Ellis Dee]
#404176 - 09/25/01 09:31 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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Damn, exactly my thoughts on the issue. This tax cut is one of the most troubling moves I've seen in a while. I guess Bush is pretty lucky about the recent events... before this i haven't seen him make one good move. Huh, strange how a massive tragedy can make a so far pathetic presidency into a memorable one.
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chuwie
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Syngenor]
#404278 - 09/25/01 10:23 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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this post intrigues me, ive always felt/known that the 'gap' between the rich/poor has been increasing - but i must admit i dont know much about world economics or the history of american economics & policies.. can anyone suggest some reading material? (online maybe? ;)
thanks
The sea was red and the sky was grey, wondered how tomorrow could ever follow today.
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The sea was red and the sky was grey, wondered how tomorrow could ever follow today.
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 Innvertigo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Ellis Dee]
#404567 - 09/26/01 06:50 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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The surplus is ours and we deserve our money back. we earned it. I say instead of worrying about the surplus we focus on the federal programs that give money away. Eliminate the welfare programs, WIC, and other federal dependant programs. I once heard that there was a 250,000 dollar federally funded program to study the mating habits of the butterfly. Get rid of these dependant programs and we will never run in the red.
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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MrKurtz
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#404803 - 09/26/01 12:23 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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well.. 250,000 dollars on the mating habits of butterflies is pretty much nothing for the government to spend. If someone wants to study that, why not let them? But, this tax cut gives people a little extra cash, and it costs the country tens of billions of dollars. If we don't give funding to science, even if its as simple as the mating habits of butterflies, how will anything be learned? And, if its up to the government to choose whos studies are stupid and whos aren't, isn't that undemocratic? The tax cut was like 1 extra pay check for pretty much every american, it doesn't affect there life at all but can hurt the country quite badly in the long run.
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Innvertigo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: MrKurtz]
#404855 - 09/26/01 01:05 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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****well.. 250,000 dollars on the mating habits of butterflies is pretty much nothing for the government to spend****
with that thinking $600 per family is a drop in the bucket. There are many programs that are useless that add up after time.
****But, this tax cut gives people a little extra cash, and it costs the country tens of billions of dollars****
Basic economics tells you if you have a surplus of money it doesn't cost you anything if you spend that money. In a perfect economic scenerio the government would have ZERO dollars at the end of the fiscal year after all the bills are paid. I'll Put it to ya this way: If you make $4000 dollars a month and your bills are $3000 what do you do with that money? you can save it because it's your money or you can spend it on anything you want and you will not be in debt. But what if the government charges you $4000 but you really only owe $3000? Do you think you deserve your money back?
****If we don't give funding to science, even if its as simple as the mating habits of butterflies, how will anything be learned? ***
I'll use stem research as an example, the private industry involved with stem cell research ia a wash with money and can supply the research more than the government can. The medical industry makes an enormous profit through their sale of medicine and research and development. In a capatilistic society private industries have to be innovating and not be supported by the government who'll control what and how much can be studied.
****if its up to the government to choose whos studies are stupid and whos aren't, isn't that undemocratic? ****
exactly. The government should say if you want to research the butterfly find private funding or put it up to the people to decide via the voting booth.
****The tax cut was like 1 extra pay check for pretty much every american, it doesn't affect there life at all but can hurt the country quite badly in the long run.****
How will it hurt the country if it is taken from the surplus? Noone has been able to answer that one.....and it was less than a paycheck..but it did become a down payment on my new windows..believe me i needed those &^%$^%# windows..;)
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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MrKurtz
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#405176 - 09/26/01 05:29 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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well, couldnt the government invest the money into programs like Social Security, seeing as how there will soon be a massive amount of senior citizens and i doubt theres gonna be enough money to give them all.
"But what if the government charges you $4000 but you really only owe $3000? Do you think you deserve your money back?"
isn't that what tax returns are for? if the country has a "drop in the bucket" leftover, why not invest it into things to improve the country? $600 dollars a family is alot of money...
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Innvertigo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: MrKurtz]
#405203 - 09/26/01 05:48 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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****couldnt the government invest the money into programs like Social Security****
and now you see the down fall of the rediculus program called social security. Social security was set up so the workers of the country would support the retired. The program is doing just as it was intended on doing...and that's failure. The social security program is not a federally funded (nor should it be) program rather a people funded program. The social security program should be changed so the people that are in my generation and beyond can invest and be in physical control of their money. Rather than getting a meager 3% (inflation is around 3%)....besides a large amount of these seniors didn't put in a 100th of what they are collecting, and that's factoring in inflation.
****isn't that what tax returns are for? *****
If you get taxes back then the government taxed you too much...kinda pisses me off really. But it's not as simple as the example i gave you. You never really get back what you deserve and i just want the money that i earned in my pocket.
****if the country has a "drop in the bucket" leftover, why not invest it into things to improve the country?****
Why?..it's not their money? If i steal a 100 bucks from you and give it to charity, am i justified? The government, except in rare occasions, doesn't improve the country. Private innovations are usually the improvers...name a program that the government has created recently that has improved the country and i can find an example of lost freedom, money or competative rights.
****$600 dollars a family is alot of money...*****
Your right it is a lot of money...it's to bad the government feels as if they should be able to keep these families' $600 (actually it's more)
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Ellis Dee
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#405214 - 09/26/01 06:03 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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Innvertigo, no, the surplus is not yours. It is your government's. And welfare is one of our most important social programs. Do you really want to starve to death a couple million welfare kids? That sounds pretty heartless of you.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Innvertigo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Ellis Dee]
#405412 - 09/26/01 08:35 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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****Innvertigo, no, the surplus is not yours. It is your government's****
No it's mine. It's quite simple if you think about it. The government, at least in a representative republic, doesn't have the right to keep what is not theirs....perhaps a socialist one would suit you better? That way the government can take what they want and give you what they think you deserve. In a capatilistic society it doesn't work that way, in fact keeping money which is not your own is anticapitist. If you are anticapatilist then i can see why you would say the money is the governments.
****And welfare is one of our most important social programs****
Then why does it form a dependance and not a helping hand? A welfar mother can make upwards of $27,000 a year if she plays her cards right. This is not an incentive to go back to work, at Mcdonalds where she'll make about $17,000 while working 40+ hours. I'm all for helping those who are willing to hep themselves and NOT awarding those on welfare when they have extra children that they cannot support....basic economics.
****Do you really want to starve to death a couple million welfare kids? ****
When did i say this? Your assuming and again you know what they say when you assume
****That sounds pretty heartless of you.****
I was wondering how long this topic would go before someone would get personal. What's heartless is the present way of doing things, for example: "We care about the homeless so as a gesture of good will we have bought you a shiney new shopping cart because we care." My way of helping that person is to get them a job (you can insert any social problem into this scenerio and it would suffice)
The heartless one's are those that think that these people are unable to work and contribute to society i want them to have the opportunity not the reliance on the government.
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Anonymous
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Ellis Dee]
#406351 - 09/27/01 02:37 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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So if the government doesn't help starving kids on welfare, will you? We don't need a middle man to redistribute what is ours in the first place. If you see a family having trouble keeping food in their mouths, the community should rally together and all pitch in on helping them.
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Lenore
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: ]
#406896 - 09/27/01 09:28 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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Government give us our money back?
is this a joke?
Unfortunatly many 'Mericans think that taxes are robbing them of their money. where do roads come from? how does our society ensure the safety of foods and drugs? what about national security? these are all tax essential programs. sadly many selfish people think taxation is wrong, well I'll tell you what's fuckin wrong.
Those who steal our money are called capitalist. Surplus value exerted in our labors is taken from us. If bush really wanted to hand us a tax refund our govt. would simply quite pandering to capital interest. that's where our money we deserve really resides, in the coffers of a few rich men.
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Innvertigo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Lenore]
#407281 - 09/28/01 06:32 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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****Government give us our money back? is this a joke? ****
ah...no.
****Unfortunatly many 'Mericans think that taxes are robbing them of their money****
Excessive taxing is wrong. I have no problem with a certain amount to run the country and i would be more than willing to give "my" part. However the mating habit of the butterfly is not something i am pleased to pay for.
***how does our society ensure the safety of foods and drugs? ***
And the government can do this?...now that's funny. the food i can see not the drugs.
****these are all tax essential programs. sadly many selfish people think taxation is wrong*****
wow...making money and wanting to keep it is now selfish. hmm that's sad. Well i'm sure you donate your entire check to these programs and will send back your tax refunds eh?
****Those who steal our money are called capitalist****
please explain to me how capitalism steals money?....unless you are not in favor of competition.
****Surplus value exerted in our labors is taken from ****
how?..just because you say it doesn't make it so.
****If bush really wanted to hand us a tax refund our govt. would simply quite pandering to capital interest. ****
or funding the welfare leaches and other liberal socialized programs who suck the money from the workers pulling the united states economy.
****in the coffers of a few rich men****
wow..a grand case of class envy
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Lenore
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#407526 - 09/28/01 01:04 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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whenever you exert your body or mind you produce value in your labor. When you are paid you recieve less than you deserve. The wealth you have created is taken from you, it is called surplus value, or to your boss, profit.
simple.
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Ellis Dee
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#408047 - 09/29/01 03:06 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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In reply to:
The surplus is ours and we deserve our money back. we earned it. I say instead of worrying about the surplus we focus on the federal programs that give money away. Eliminate the welfare programs, WIC, and other federal dependant programs. I once heard that there was a 250,000 dollar federally funded program to study the mating habits of the butterfly. Get rid of these dependant programs and we will never run in the red.
Innvertigo, maybe you did't know it, but 60 - 70 years ago before America began spraying for mosquitos butterflies were common. They were as common as bees and much more common than moths. Spraying for mosquitos had the side effect of killing the vast majority of the beautiful butterflys. Now this is a bit off topic, but I think that one of the reasons we're here on earth is to be a good steward to nature, and we haven't been a good steward to the butterflies. If the federal government can spend a few millio dollars to repopulate the butterflies they definatly should. There's been 3 generations now that have grown up without seeing all the beautiful butterflies that once fluttered around so prettily. If we can give the blessing of butterflies to our posterity then lets do it!
And as far as our gov determining who's studies are 'stupid' being undemocratic you bet it is. So what?
In reply to:
****But, this tax cut gives people a little extra cash, and it costs the country tens of billions of dollars****
Basic economics tells you if you have a surplus of money it doesn't cost you anything if you spend that money. In a perfect economic scenerio the government would have ZERO dollars at the end of the fiscal year after all the bills are paid. I'll Put it to ya this way: If you make $4000 dollars a month and your bills are $3000 what do you do with that money? you can save it because it's your money or you can spend it on anything you want and you will not be in debt. But what if the government charges you $4000 but you really only owe $3000? Do you think you deserve your money back?
Hmm, Basic economics tells you if you have a surplus of money it doesn't cost you anything if you spend that money.
It doesn't cot you money to spend money. Now that's a flat out lie. Spending money is spending money and it cost's whoever spends it money. I think that's the most ludicrous thing I've heard you say yet.
I'll Put it to ya this way: If you make $4000 dollars a month and your bills are $3000 what do you do with that money? you can save it because it's your money or you can spend it on anything you want and you will not be in debt. But what if the government charges you $4000 but you really only owe $3000? Do you think you deserve your money back?
I think this is really the point, we are in debt by trillions of dollars and the GOP prefers to go further in debt by cutting revinue and drastically increasing federal spending so that we'll go even more in debt. It's not about giving back what's ours, it's about not paying back what we owe.
That's one of the things that puzzles me about GOP economics. The GOP that is allegedly fiscally conservative is dead set on tremendous liberal spending increases and deficit spending. And the rank and file GOP just go along with the fiscal liberalness.
In reply to:
****The tax cut was like 1 extra pay check for pretty much every american, it doesn't affect there life at all but can hurt the country quite badly in the long run.****
How will it hurt the country if it is taken from the surplus? Noone has been able to answer that one.....and it was less than a paycheck..but it did become a down payment on my new windows..believe me i needed those &^%$^%# windows..
It hurt the country by reducing the resources available to pay off the debt. By going back to deficit spending interest rates may be forced up and the dollar may weaken against foreign currencies. Deficit spending in peace time with a good economy doesn't make sense.
In reply to:
****Innvertigo, no, the surplus is not yours. It is your government's****
No it's mine. It's quite simple if you think about it. The government, at least in a representative republic, doesn't have the right to keep what is not theirs....perhaps a socialist one would suit you better? That way the government can take what they want and give you what they think you deserve. In a capatilistic society it doesn't work that way, in fact keeping money which is not your own is anticapitist. If you are anticapatilist then i can see why you would say the money is the governments.
The point is that in that case the national debt is yours too and you prefer to continue paying exorbatant interest on that debt, spending huge sums of money unproductivly, as opposed to paying down the debt. By paying down the debt the money that is used to pay interest becomes available to pay the debt down further and further. By refunding money now costs trillions of dollars in the long run. There would be room for a tax cut or GOP spending increases after the debt was paid down but instead they want to spend for today without regard to the future economic stability of the country, the GOP has become the true big liberal spender.
In reply to:
****if the country has a "drop in the bucket" leftover, why not invest it into things to improve the country?****
Why?..it's not their money? If i steal a 100 bucks from you and give it to charity, am i justified? The government, except in rare occasions, doesn't improve the country. Private innovations are usually the improvers...name a program that the government has created recently that has improved the country and i can find an example of lost freedom, money or competative rights.
I knew that's what you really believed, that taxation is theft. That tired old libertarian mantra 'taxation is theft'. You know that's a crock of lies. I remember in one of our former debates I even made the point of pointing out that taxes are the price we pay for our civilization and you had the nerve to act like I was rambeling without a point. Some libertarion nut always ends up saying that taxation is theft and I was just trying to make a pre-emptive argument to that. You've shown your true economic beliefs, they're not conservative as you've claimed so often, they're libertarian...
In reply to:
****Do you really want to starve to death a couple million welfare kids? ****
When did i say this? Your assuming and again you know what they say when you assume
And what do they say about those that don't plan for the future. Cause and effect. If welfare was eliminated the food would be taken from the mouths of a couple million underprivilaged children.
In reply to:
****That sounds pretty heartless of you.****
I was wondering how long this topic would go before someone would get personal. What's heartless is the present way of doing things, for example: "We care about the homeless so as a gesture of good will we have bought you a shiney new shopping cart because we care." My way of helping that person is to get them a job (you can insert any social problem into this scenerio and it would suffice)
The heartless one's are those that think that these people are unable to work and contribute to society i want them to have the opportunity not the reliance on the government.
Don't give me that. You make more personal attacks than anyone. And what's more you purposfully twist the words of others into sounding like they said somthing they didn't more than anyone. You're not innocent.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Ellis Dee
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#408076 - 09/29/01 04:24 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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Innvertigo,
In reply to:
****Unfortunatly many 'Mericans think that taxes are robbing them of their money****
Excessive taxing is wrong. I have no problem with a certain amount to run the country and i would be more than willing to give "my" part. However the mating habit of the butterfly is not something i am pleased to pay for.
You apparently have a problem with paying money for welfare children to have food and not starve to death too... And you seem to have a problem with paying back your share of the national debt [I make that assumption from your previous statements about wanting your money back].
In reply to:
***how does our society ensure the safety of foods and drugs? ***
And the government can do this?...now that's funny. the food i can see not the drugs.
And can you see the virus's, bacteria, and minute amounts of fecal material in your food, NO YOU CAN"T. You can not ensure that the your food or drugs you purchase from companies are pure without government certification. And if you say you can you're a liar.
In reply to:
or funding the welfare leaches and other liberal socialized programs who suck the money from the workers pulling the united states economy.
The welfare leaches, like innocent children born in to poverty and orphans and the disabled? My O my, you are a heartless one...
In reply to:
****in the coffers of a few rich men****
wow..a grand case of class envy
Again you have nothing to use as an argument so you resort to accusations of class envy. Tsk Tsk Tsk...
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Ellis Dee
Archangel
Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Lenore]
#408082 - 09/29/01 04:49 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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Comrade Lenore,
You said:
In reply to:
whenever you exert your body or mind you produce value in your labor. When you are paid you recieve less than you deserve. The wealth you have created is taken from you, it is called surplus value, or to your boss, profit.
simple.
Now you aren't the only one that ever read the 'Manifesto of the Communist Party' by Comrade Karl Marx. I read it in high school and instantly realized what a bunch of rubbish it was.
Your statments about the worker adding to the value of raw materials is taken directly from the communist manifesto. Comrade Marx explained it about workers taking wood and making a chair out of it for their boss. Marx said the difference in value between the materials that the chair was made from and the sale price of the chair is the value of the craftsman's work and that they recieve an hourly wage for their work instead of the value of their work is exploitation by the capatalist chair selling guy.
Well, back in the days the Manifesto was written there did exist that sort of pure exploitation by capatalists making nothing but tremendous unreasonable profits at the expense and detrement of the workers. But that type of pure capatalist exploitation does not exist in America anymore and probably never will again. These days the profit made by the capatalist goes to make his business more efficient, for taxes to benefit the worker and business owner, for new equipment, for supplies, and for fair wages for the employee, etcetera. We now have a fair system with a minimum wage and employee benefits and training. And it's not like you are forced to work for a company. If you want you can start your own business and become the capatalist, and you might even be able to get government help for your new enterprise.
So I hate to break it to you but communism is nice in theory but it doesn't work in practice and the manifesto you took your example from is in no way applicable to our society today. It's not just wrong, it's outdated and wrong.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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MrKurtz
enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 303
Last seen: 22 years, 5 months
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#408128 - 09/29/01 08:23 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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"Then why does it form a dependance and not a helping hand? A welfar mother can make upwards of $27,000 a year if she plays her cards right. This is not an incentive to go back to work, at Mcdonalds where she'll make about $17,000 while working 40+ hours. I'm all for helping those who are willing to hep themselves and NOT awarding those on welfare when they have extra children that they cannot support....basic economics"
so, you think its better if the mom is working her ass off and still doesn't have enough money to live? if you think ANYONE can support a family off 17k a year, you really don't understand what welfare is then. Maybe the system is flawed, and money should go to people who are working at shitty ass jobs, but just because it needs improving doesn't mean it should be removed.
"name a program that the government has created recently that has improved the country and i can find an example of lost freedom, money or competative rights."
financial aid programs maybe? or are you against poor people going to college to? how about public school fundings? and if you think we could fit all these children into private schools, you are badly mistaken. And about social security, it reduced povery among the elderly from about 50% to 12%, maybe you don't care about being dirt poor when you're old, but i do.
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Lenore
enthusiast
Registered: 01/30/00
Posts: 366
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: MrKurtz]
#408295 - 09/29/01 12:48 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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ok?
first of all i am not a communist. i simply recognize the wisdom and usefullness of the ideas expressed by marx and engles. second, the ideas i refer to are not soley expressed in the communist party manifesto, i'm glad you have read it railgun, but you might try Capital, both volumes. Marx's manifesto for the comm. party was merely a pamphlet of the day to rile up some political support for the party's cause, not an economic theory manuscript of any sort.
I know its difficult to break with culture and society, to look at capitalist organization for what it is (wasteful and exploitive) but please try to do so.
As for communism, well I'm sure you really don't understand what it really means for human development, the word has lost all critical meaning since mccarthyism.
As for all the comments about welfare moms, this baffles me. You should all do some research into the facts surrounding welfare before you make foolish and utterly wrong generalizations concerning those who recieve welfare. Welfare is not a free lunch, it is not an incentive to not work. Women who recieve welfare do so because they live in a world which devalues thier labor, why in America is domestic work and the job of raising a child considered worthless i do not know.
MrKurtz has some good points
If we were really out to stop the damage done to taxpayers through welfare programs we would quit giving away our money to already wealthy multinational corporations in the form of corporate welfare. What a fraud, if you truely believe in a capitalist economy how could one justify the unecessary support of businesses? isn't it sink or swim in economics? it surely shouldn't be when it comes to human life.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: MrKurtz]
#408662 - 09/29/01 10:20 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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****so, you think its better if the mom is working her ass off and still doesn't have enough money to live****
No i am more in favor of MOM getting off her ass and working like every other person.
****if you think ANYONE can support a family off 17k a year, you really don't understand what welfare is then****
That's not what i meant. What i meant is why would someone want to get off welfare when they can get paid 27k a year staying on it. IE: Dependance. This is a lot worse on our economy than awarding couples $600.
****financial aid programs maybe? or are you against poor people going to college to? how about public school fundings? ****
I tend to agree with you on the Student aid programs however, HAVE to be paid back so i think that is a bad example. Public school funding is a joke. Do you honestly think that the more money you throw at a school the better it will be? Detroit schools have the highest per student cost and have the lowest test scores in the state.....would you care to wager what schools ranked close to the top?...Yep the lower funded schools. The problem isn't the money but the Dumb ass Dept of Education where the average teacher there dumber than the average person.
****and if you think we could fit all these children into private schools, you are badly mistaken****
Some people weren't meant or just aren't smart enough to go to private schools. That's life
****And about social security, it reduced povery among the elderly from about 50% to 12%, maybe you don't care about being dirt poor when you're old, but i do. ****
So you're depending on social security as your only means of retirement? Not a very wise decision my friend. I will never have to worry about being dirt poor when i retire because i have prepared for that day. I have a pension, 401k, IRA's and other savings plans...if i get my social security it will be a bonus.
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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ElPrimo
journeyman
Registered: 09/29/01
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Ellis Dee]
#408731 - 09/29/01 11:18 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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What I find amusing is how conservatives are always saying that government programs are bad economics and can't help anybody... then they turn right around and claim that a war will boost the economy... like a war isn't a government program! LOL
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Lenore]
#409893 - 10/01/01 06:05 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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****You should all do some research into the facts surrounding welfare before you make foolish and utterly wrong generalizations concerning those who recieve welfare****
Then feel free to tell us what the proper generalization is....As to date you haven't done that. Not one generalization i've made was false.
****Welfare is not a free lunch, it is not an incentive to not work. ****
Welfare is a free lunch when used as a lifestyle and IS an incentive not to work. Why work when you get a check in the mail...hell i guess you can't really blame the welfare men/woman doing it..hey free money.
****Women who recieve welfare do so because they live in a world which devalues thier labor, why in America is domestic work and the job of raising a child considered worthless i do not know. ****
Now this is funny.....woman aren't the only one's on welfare...are you implying that those that are men are just lazy or is it that society devalues their labor as well?...i'm curious.
****If we were really out to stop the damage done to taxpayers through welfare programs we would quit giving away our money to already wealthy multinational corporations in the form of corporate welfare****
this makes almost no sense......
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
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Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Ellis Dee]
#409898 - 10/01/01 06:28 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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****Innvertigo, maybe you did't know it, but 60 - 70 years ago before America began spraying for mosquitos butterflies were common. They were as common as bees and much more common than moths. Spraying for mosquitos had the side effect of killing the vast majority of the beautiful butterflys****
My GOD did you miss the point...shheesshh
****If we can give the blessing of butterflies to our posterity then lets do it!****
.....eh?....man are you in touch with your feminine side or what..WOW!
**** And as far as our gov determining who's studies are 'stupid' being undemocratic you bet it is. So what****
Well you are a prime example of a socialistt.....and you wonder why noone takes you seriously.
****It doesn't cot you money to spend money. Now that's a flat out lie. Spending money is spending money ****
yep you guessed it i'm lying......get a clue. Companies that make a profit, at times, use that extra money to train employees this may cost money to run but the company does not go in debt....ie: doesn't cost the company it's bottom line. Take an economics class and report back....or just pay your bills and see what you do with the extra money.
****I think this is really the point, we are in debt by trillions of dollars ****
Yet you have no problem in thousands of federally funded programs that are useless...typical socialist response.
****It hurt the country by reducing the resources available to pay off the debt. By going back to deficit spending interest rates may be forced up and the dollar may weaken against foreign currencies. Deficit spending in peace time with a good economy doesn't make sense. ****
First off they weren't deficit spending for the fiscal budget. If you consider any spending until the debt is paid off then i would have to say you are correct but that's not what deficit spending is. So are you in favor of social programs when we "can't afford" it? Maybe your liberal friends can do without them until we're out of debt?
****I knew that's what you really believed, that taxation is theft. ****
If i steal a 100 bucks from you and give it to charity, am i justified? answer that question and think for yourself. I am not against taxes, however, if it takes $100 to run the country and it's resources then i'm against any taxes that exceed that amount.....
****I even made the point of pointing out that taxes are the price we pay for our civilization and you had the nerve to act like I was rambeling without a point. ****
you tend to without coherance....
****You've shown your true economic beliefs, they're not conservative as you've claimed so often, they're libertarian****
WOW you do read my posts..this is the first true thing you have said in the entire post, however, i've NEVER claimed to be conservative, economically or socially....so maybe YOU are the one who has problems with the truth.
****And what do they say about those that don't plan for the future****
What do i call it?...moronic.
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Crobih
rap-cord
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#409986 - 10/01/01 09:19 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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you are all very smart people
afterall you are all good people sometimes
~Crobih
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Crobih]
#410020 - 10/01/01 10:47 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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E equals M C squared......;)
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Ellis Dee]
#410120 - 10/01/01 01:07 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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****You apparently have a problem with paying money for welfare children to have food and not starve to death too... ****
That sounds more like a parental problem then a social problem...and yess i have a problem paying for them if nothing is being done to improve their lives...throwing money at it doesn't work.
****You can not ensure that the your food or drugs you purchase from companies are pure without government certification. And if you say you can you're a liar. ****
Thank you you proved my point...if the government tells you that the food and drugs are clean are you going to blindly believe them?......and yes i can see molecules because i have 20/20 vision and i eat lots of carrots........or am i a liar...ha ha..your getting more and more weird by the post...quite humorous.
****The welfare leaches, like innocent children born in to poverty and orphans and the disabled? My O my, you are a heartless one..****
I am sick and tired of hearing about "THE CHILDREN" maybe if their lazy ass parents would make an honest attempt at getting a job these children wouldn't be born into poverty...and why are these parents having kids when they can't afford it?..i'm not heartless i'm a realist!!!!
***Again you have nothing to use as an argument so you resort to accusations of class envy. Tsk Tsk Tsk... ***
man are you jealous or what..ha ha... Railgun doesn't make a lot of money so the whole world sucks. It has occured to me that you are bitter at anyone that makes more money or is more successful than yourself. BIG TIME CLASS ENVY!!! tsk tsk tsk
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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MrKurtz
enthusiast
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#410418 - 10/01/01 06:43 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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". Public school funding is a joke. Do you honestly think that the more money you throw at a school the better it will be? "
I have gone to both schools that have a good amount of public funding and ones that have very little. Guess what I found? The ones with more funding have far better teachers, far better classes, and actually have computer labs, good libraries, etc. I don't see any logic in a school that gets less funding does better.
"The problem isn't the money but the Dumb ass Dept of Education where the average teacher there dumber than the average person. "
Well, maybe if they hired a better dept of education and better teachers the schools would do better? Maybe if teachers actually got paid better we would get more intelligent people working as them? I think money has alot to do with it.
"****so, you think its better if the mom is working her ass off and still doesn't have enough money to live****
No i am more in favor of MOM getting off her ass and working like every other person. "
Well, if you actually read the quote, i was saying that people work there asses off and still can't support there family. Maybe welfare is an unfair program.. but it works. It reduces poverty.
"So you're depending on social security as your only means of retirement? Not a very wise decision my friend. I will never have to worry about being dirt poor when i retire because i have prepared for that day. I have a pension, 401k, IRA's and other savings plans...if i get my social security it will be a bonus. "
Well, I haven't put any thought into retirement since I've only been working 3 years, most of it as a clerk at a pet store, but recently got a job working on a farm. But anyways, what about people who don't make enough money to save up for retirement? They don't deserve to retire because they don't have a job as good as yours?
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: MrKurtz]
#410522 - 10/01/01 08:38 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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****The ones with more funding have far better teachers,....I don't see any logic in a school that gets less funding ****
A majority of the teachers in the Detroit public school system are dumber than rocks and their school contributes more per studant than anyother school district in Michigan. Their test scores suck and are at the bottom of the educational food chain. I as well have been in both more affluent public schools and not so affluent public schools and have noticed that the quality of education was better at the lesser funded school. So who is correct? I will agree that a school needs money but test scores have shown that more money doesn't equate to higher test scores. If that was so Detroit would be pretty close to the top. Can you explain the Detroit School system?....in some cases private schools spend less per studant than does public schools...and what about home schoolers who use even less money and blow both public and private schools out of the water when test scores are concerned....i have a neice that is home schooled and aces standardized tests....her parents aren't rich.
****maybe if they hired a better dept of education and better teachers the schools would do better? ****
You have no argument with me on this one...in addition the pathetic teachers union should be eliminated.
****Maybe if teachers actually got paid better we would get more intelligent people working as them? *****
I wish this would be true but i think all you'd get would be more wealthy dumb teachers. Money is a short term motivator and would eventually become expected instead of earned. Now you have a point about hiring better teachers, That i agree with. Teachers should be tested so they at least know how to teach their prospective grades and subjects......gym teachers should not be Triganometry teachers like the "more affluant" school i went to had...he was a dumbass. With this teaching they should be paid accordingly and fairly.
****Well, if you actually read the quote, i was saying that people work there asses off and still can't support there family****
If you can't afford to have a family you shouldn't have one...simple economics..if it takes 100 dollars to have a family and you make 50 then you can't afford it......it's called responsibility.
****what about people who don't make enough money to save up for retirement? They don't deserve to retire because they don't have a job as good as yours?****
Noone deserves to retire. Retirement is not a right it's a privilage. However isn't that what social security is for? Wouldn't it be nice if these people had the opportunity to choose where their money is invested? Or is it fair to let them look forward to their social security that makes at most about 3% anually? If they had an opportunity to invest them into a IRA they could make their monmey work for them instead of them haveing to scrape enough together at age 65.....
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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jonniedumbass
Stranger
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#410683 - 10/01/01 10:43 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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You can label something with an approximate value in regards to other somethings-this is why we have money.
However, money has ceased to be a reflection of "true value" because things are valued irrationally in the sickened planet we live on (try and tell me pollution doesnt affect rational thinking)- some confused people (for varied reasons)value the idea of a "job" or "status" (just one example) over things that (IMO) really matter, like a peaceful and joyous existance (long term as well). In short, in a world of lies, greed and misunderstanding, money can take on a crazy concept. When so much importance is placed on something that is basically an illusion, problems are gonna result.
I believe our basic survival as a species is being threatened by the premise of "globalisation" and all that it entails.
Who cares about money when nobody's selling or there's nothing worth buying .
"And so castles made of sand fall into the sea...eventually"- Jimi Hendrix
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MrKurtz
enthusiast
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: jonniedumbass]
#411736 - 10/02/01 08:24 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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Eh, so you think people didn't believe in meaningless titles and such before industrialization and the rise of capitalism? Have you actually studied history ever? People were considered gods among men because of who there parents were. Power is always an indicator of self worth, from the beginning of history.
"some confused people (for varied reasons)value the idea of a "job" or "status" (just one example) over things that (IMO) really matter, like a peaceful and joyous existance (long term as well). "
Well, the reason people value jobs and status, is because they bring peaceful and joyous existance. Without money, life sucks.
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MrKurtz
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#411743 - 10/02/01 08:36 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well, I'm guessing Detroit has sad ass schools because they need to spend so much money on things that don't effect grades. They need to build a big school, upkeep it, pay the staff, etc. Even if they had more money, they were probably had much less to actually pay for the education of the students. I mean, if they don't have enough money to hire math teachers and used gym teachers to teach trig, you know they got budget problems. As for private schools, they usually get public and private funding. And, for the amount of money a students parent pays, he better get a good education. Home schooling is a different matter, the parents don't need to pay any teachers or hire a staff, they just need to buy some books, thats it. Of course its gonna be cheaper.
"If you can't afford to have a family you shouldn't have one...simple economics..if it takes 100 dollars to have a family and you make 50 then you can't afford it......it's called responsibility."
What if you have enough money, and lose it? I'm sure the majority of people who have families and money troubles didn't see them coming.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: MrKurtz]
#412505 - 10/03/01 01:15 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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****Well, I'm guessing Detroit has sad ass schools because they need to spend so much money on things that don't effect grades****
Congrats.......you are 200% correct. Unfortunatly Detroit is not unique.
****Even if they had more money, they were probably had much less to actually pay for the education of the students****
You're making my point.
****if they don't have enough money to hire math teachers and used gym teachers to teach trig, you know they got budget problems****
Unfortunatly this happened in a different district that i attended..not Detroit. Our test scores were still higher..quite sad (this is in the 80's so relativly speaking ofcourse)
****As for private schools, they usually get public and private funding. And, for the amount of money a students parent pays, he better get a good education****
this aught to give you some perspective
The national average cost per student of public schools was $6,857. This was 120% higher than $3,116 for private schools, and 215% higher than $2,178 for catholic schools. (CATO Institute/U.S. Dept. of Education Digest of Education Statistics 1995)....and homeschooling isn't even listed.....
****What if you have enough money, and lose it? I'm sure the majority of people who have families and money troubles didn't see them coming****
That's what unemployment is for..not welfare. Lets face it: Jobs are easy to get if you are really looking for them.
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....Edited by Innvertigo on 10/03/01 02:17 PM.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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MrKurtz
enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/01
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#414020 - 10/04/01 06:38 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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"****Even if they had more money, they were probably had much less to actually pay for the education of the students****
You're making my point. "
that it would take a ton of money to run a decent public school in a city?
"That's what unemployment is for..not welfare. Lets face it: Jobs are easy to get if you are really looking for them. "
What I meant was what if say dad skips town and leaves an unemployed mom with 3 kids? Thats a situation where, if you don't get alot of help, the whole family is fucked.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: MrKurtz]
#414126 - 10/04/01 08:02 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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****that it would take a ton of money to run a decent public school in a city? ****
No.....that it doesn't matter how much you throw at some schools...if the teachers are stupid all the money in the world won't educate the students
****What I meant was what if say dad skips town and leaves an unemployed mom with 3 kids? Thats a situation where, if you don't get alot of help, the whole family is fucked****
How many of the welfare recipiants has this happened to?...1% 2% 3% or more? I agree that this may be a good thing if this in deed happens to scale...but on a very temporary scale, meaning Ms. mother of three needs to now find a job that will support her kids and daddy needs to be found and dealt with. Unfortunatly in the real world it pays for a majority of losers and underachievers who are too lazy to get off their asses and find a job. It's unfortunate that all you have to do is be lazy and you get this money when there are actual mothers of 3 working 2 jobs long hours because they have too much dignity to stoop to the welfare level.
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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ElPrimo
journeyman
Registered: 09/29/01
Posts: 92
Last seen: 22 years, 5 months
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#415237 - 10/05/01 09:24 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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"If you can't afford to have a family you shouldn't have one...simple economics..if it takes 100 dollars to have a family and you make 50 then you can't afford it......it's called responsibility. "
*** Go tell that to a hungry child....
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: ElPrimo]
#415387 - 10/06/01 12:32 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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******* Go tell that to a hungry child.... *****
What kind of dribble is that?...what does a hungry "child" have to do with irresponsible parents?
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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ElPrimo
journeyman
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#417353 - 10/07/01 09:42 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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A lot... all you can think about is condeming the parents and posting self rightious lectures... The kids are not the guilty ones..
Some folks want to see that all children have enough to eat, medical care and schooling... not just those with 'responsible' parents..
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: ElPrimo]
#417684 - 10/08/01 05:59 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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****all you can think about is condeming the parents and posting self rightious lectures****
If it's not the parents then who is it? If you didn't know it the parents are responsible for their kids. Get off this liberal bullshit it's very unbecomming.
****The kids are not the guilty ones****
ha ha...Who's blaming the "children"? Not once has that been expressed on either side...try reading before posting, it would help your credibility.
****Some folks want to see that all children have enough to eat, medical care and schooling... not just those with 'responsible' parents****
You make absolutly no sense when the fact is that there's not a person alive that doesn't want "children" to have all these things...but at what expense? The thing is, is that responsible parents are providing these things...it's too bad your too blind to see this
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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MrKurtz
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#418562 - 10/08/01 05:36 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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eh, i think what he was saying is that there are alot of parents out there who aren't responsible, and therefore have starving children. If there is welfare, at least the children won't suffer for there parents faults. Like i said before, theres alot of imperfect people... welfare at least helps to take care of them. Are you saying you're a Social Darwinist?
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Innvertigo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: MrKurtz]
#418627 - 10/08/01 06:25 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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Social Darwinist?...no i'm not, but i like that phrase.
If a parent does not take responsibility for their children, the children need to be taken from them. It's that simple. The welfare system was not set up to pay for children that parents don't want to help. I'm sorry to break this to you but welfare is a losing program that on;y helps those that don't want to help themself.
Now if they put severe limits on it and don't award a parent on welfare with more money for each kid she pops out, themn i may support it. Welfare should be something you don't want to be on and strive to get off of it. It's too bad that there are a majority of those that want the check that welre supplies them but don't want to better their situation.
I'm not heartless, i'm a realist on a idealistic web-site.
Why is it the responsibility of the many to take care of the few?....just an after thought
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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MrKurtz
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#420141 - 10/09/01 08:49 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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well, when the number of starving people is cut in half due to the current welfare program, we are talking about hundreds of thousands of people. I agree its a faulty program, but our constitution has its faults also, should we just throw it out also?
"I'm not heartless, i'm a realist on a idealistic web-site. "
I found a quote somewhere... think it was from Winston Churchill. "If a person is young and not a liberal, he has no heart. If a person is old and not a conservative, he has no brain." I thought it was funny, don't no the truth of it, but young people generally want to improve things. Oh well, I guess I just don't feel right if I don't want to improve the world I live in when I think it could be improved.
"Why is it the responsibility of the many to take care of the few?....just an after thought"
Like I said, you sound like a Social Darwinist when you say things like that. I don't think there is anything wrong with taking care of someone who can't take care of themselves when you can. Hell, with your logic, we should abolish capitalism in favor of communism. After all, workers are the majority, and they support there bosses. The working class should choose how much money they make, after all, they are doing 99% of the work.
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ElPrimo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: MrKurtz]
#424480 - 10/13/01 08:10 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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It costs to much to see that children have decent schools and medical care, huh? What a bunch of crap... I don't think you're heartless. I think you're dumb and swollen with self deluded pride.
Our society would save in the long run by building responsible citizens. Just like we would save by having a standard and universal health care system. Like most if not all other industrialized Nations. Your kind always has enough money for prisons or bombs, but never enough to help out some poor kid with education or a social program to keep them away from gangs...
Then again, I could be wrong. You might be heartless, you might figure the more poor kids who get held back, the better chance for you and yours. Handicap them and you can compete and get the better jobs...... you might shedding a few crocidile tears..
I can you hear you telling the kids,,, 'We're not helping you out for your own good... after all, your parents have to learn 'responsibility'... A lot of single moms don't have the tools or the skills or the money to help their kids.... Your self rightious lectures aren't helping anything...
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Innvertigo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: ElPrimo]
#425539 - 10/14/01 07:09 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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****It costs to much to see that children have decent schools and medical care, huh? ****
What is your point? Who are these people that you keep saying are trying to take this money away from ...."THE CHILDREN"?
****I think you're dumb and swollen with self-deluded pride. ****
Call me what you want but from your response I can see that the only thing that you can attack is my character (which is fine) and not the debate at hand.....typical
****Our society would save in the long run by building responsible citizens****
Build?....sounds a bit Stalinistic doesn't it?
****Just like we would save by having a standard and universal health care system.......Like most if not all other industrialized Nations****
HA HA HA...just go ask them countries how that's working for them. Their healthcare is a joke and is bankrupting their economy (cutting off their nose, to spite their face)..as well as any other country that "SOCIALIZES" their health care.
The United States is a more successful country economically than most of them nations combined..i think I?ll stick to how it is here thank you very much.
****Your kind always has enough money for prisons or bombs, but never enough to help out some poor kid with education or a social program to keep them away from gangs...****
Sure I want to help the poor kids. I would love to teach them that blaming your failures on the environment they were brought up in is complete and utter bullshit. Do you know how you help these kids? Well first off get teachers that know what the fuck they are doing and hire NO ONE that is an idiot. (this would include affirmative action as an example). I have the stats to prove that money is not the answer....quality is the answer..but if you aren't willing to go back and read I?ll post it here:
The national average cost per student of public schools was $6,857. This was 120% higher than $3,116 for private schools, and 215% higher than $2,178 for catholic schools. (CATO Institute/U.S. Dept. of Education Digest of Education Statistics 1995)....and home schooling isn't even listed.....
now who's the dumb one?
****Then again, I could be wrong****
and you'd be right...
****You might be heartless, you might figure the more poor kids who get held back, the better chance for you and yours****
well that narrow mindedness is why you are making no sense...what does being poor have to do with whether a student gets held back? Are you saying that poor people are stupid? 2+2 is 4 if you?re rich or poor.
****Handicap them and you can compete and get the better jobs...... you might shedding a few crocidile tears.. ****
Well competing for "better jobs" is very competitive (it is obvious that you haven't had to get a good job yet) and giving them passes and treating them like affirmative action cases is not going to help them in the long run. The nasty truth is, is that if you and I are competing for the same job most people would step on the head of their opponent to get that job....I hope you have a helmet when you go to an interview.
****I can you hear you telling the kids,,, 'We're not helping you out for your own good... after all, your parents have to learn 'responsibility'****
Actually you may be correct. parents do need to be responsible...but who really wants to purposely hold back kids?
****lot of single moms don't have the tools or the skills or the money to help their kids***
You underestimate the skills of women.....and there are single dads as well (I guess that stat has eluded you.) If it took $100 to raise my 2 kids and I made $50 I would sacrifice luxuries ie: cable, telephone, Internet, TV?s, cars..etc and if that wasn't enough I?d get an additional job.
****Your self rightious lectures aren't helping anything****
Neither are your handout programs.
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
Edited by Innvertigo (10/14/01 07:14 PM)
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ElPrimo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#431008 - 10/19/01 10:26 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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I do pretty good for myself. But I appreciate the public education I received. I appreciate my parents moral guidence. I'm grateful I was so fortunate. I recognize that our prisons are filled with the poor, not the wealthy or the upper middle class. I recognize that 10 times as many minorities go to prison as Whites (per capita). I attribute this to their environments. I want to improve those environments.
Whereas, I figure you for just another GOP semi-racist who attributes it to 'character'... That way you can believe you and yours are better than other folks. Especially all those Black folks ...
Course, you secretly know that you have an advantage and hence do everything you can to see they remain handicapped.... In fact, you try and make it worse for them every chance you get...
I know you're afraid to compete on an even playing field... .... your bullshit about 'quality' doesn't fool me... tell it to some other selfish, self rightious White boy ... I know why you don't want to spend the money to help these kids get a good education... it keeps your advantage... Keeps those minorities at the menial jobs....
Edited by ElPrimo (10/19/01 10:29 PM)
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nugsarenice
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: jonniedumbass]
#431918 - 10/20/01 11:14 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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on the note of the cost of schools, why don't you compare Cuba's public school system, it costs nothing, students who wish to go to school go farm the field outside of school half day and the other half study, it was the first initiative of Fidel Castro's horrible regime, bringing cuba to the status of first world in a matter of 20 years, notice how cuban currency is equal to that of the united states, without even trading with any of United Nations countries. But altogether I agree, we should appoint Fidel Castro fix our economic issues. unless they are not good Ideas?
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Innvertigo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: ElPrimo]
#433056 - 10/22/01 06:12 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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****I make 6 figures and worked my way up from washing dishes. ****
Yeah right..why did you edit this out?....or do busboys make more money then they did when i was a kid?
****But I appreciate the public education I received***
I'm sure you did appriciate it as well did I.
****I attribute this to their environments.****
So their environments caused them to perform a crime....so what good is your statistic of Ten times if you contribute it to their environment?
****Whereas, I figure you for just another GOP semi-racist who attributes it to 'character'****
This makes absolutly no sense. What does character have to do with this? As for being a GOP racist, i'm neither. The real racists are the whiney little socialist white "kids" who don't believe that a black man can do anything without their help...that thinking is purely pathetic.
****That way you can believe you and yours are better than other folks. Especially all those Black folks ...****
Again you make no sense..where have i ever said i'm better than a black man? Now your just making things up.
****Course, you secretly know that you have an advantage and hence do everything you can to see they remain handicapped.... In fact, you try and make it worse for them every chance you get...*****
I have no advantage over a black man. 2+2 is still 4 to them and I. Please don't pretend you speak for african americans, it is obvious from what you're saying you've never worked with them, especially african americans that are hard workers....
****I know you're afraid to compete on an even playing field****
Actullay brain-child i've competed for jobs with some black men and some got the job over me and i got the job over them. Please don't pretent that the work force is a black versus white environment because your just setting yourself up for failure....since you make 6 figures you'd figure you'd know that...maybe you should stick yo washing dishes.
****your bullshit about 'quality' doesn't fool me... ****
I'm not surprised you don't accept the quality issue....your socialist attitude shines through...i'm glad you don't own a business.
****tell it to some other selfish, self rightious White boy ****
now who's the racist?
****I know why you don't want to spend the money to help these kids get a good education... it keeps your advantage... Keeps those minorities at the menial jobs.... ****
hey dipshit look back and you'll see that private schools spend less and get better results.....you my friend should stick to the menial jobs....you know, the ones who pay 6 figures..ha ha ha
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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MrKurtz
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#433274 - 10/22/01 01:34 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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"I have no advantage over a black man. 2+2 is still 4 to them and I."
Yeah, but the majority of black people live in ghetto-like areas. And guess who put them there? Yes, things are getting much better nowadays for the average black man (or woman), but its still harder. America is moving in the right direction on this issue... hell, most of the black kids I grew up with are off to college while I'm working a farm 50 hours a week, lol.
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Innvertigo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: MrKurtz]
#433346 - 10/22/01 02:58 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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****Yeah, but the majority of black people live in ghetto-like areas. And guess who put them there? ****
I won't even dignify this with a response...
****hell, most of the black kids I grew up with are off to college while I'm working a farm 50 hours a week, lol. ****
I thought they were in the ghetto?...cue "in the ghetto" by elvis.ha
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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MrKurtz
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#433415 - 10/22/01 04:25 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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i grew up in the projects. And, like I said, the MAJORITY is a key word.
"I won't even dignify this with a response... "
Um, have you ever heard about slavery? How about segregation? Black people weren't allowed to buy property in better neighborhoods... hense they were ghettos. Once you are placed in a ghetto, its pretty damn hard to get out of it. Is this concept to hard for you to understand?
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Innvertigo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: MrKurtz]
#433703 - 10/22/01 09:00 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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****i grew up in the projects****
he he..i love it when people say that. I'll take your word for it. Am i supposed to be impressed? Does that mean you know more about "real" life then I do?...for the sake of argument i believe you...I didn't grow up in the hood..i grew up in a little hick town called Algonac in SE Michigan.
****Um, have you ever heard about slavery? ****
Gee...no what is it?
***How about segregation? Black people weren't allowed to buy property in better neighborhoods... hense they were ghettos****
get out of the past it's a little unbecomming. Now adays, with the exception of the truly poor, it's a choice to live there. Not everyone can live in hollywood.
****Once you are placed in a ghetto, its pretty damn hard to get out of it. ****
Do they have bars on the city limits? How come they can't work their way to the top by washing dishes like Lenore did?..Now that's a success story. Jobs are easy to find if you really want one.
****Is this concept to hard for you to understand? ****
It's not that i don't understand, it's just pathetic that's all. Noting can stop a Black man/woman from succedding but him/herself..i will grant you that times have changed and in the past it was hard for them but now it is just a pathetic excuse. I work with african americans that make 6 figures and they did work their way up.
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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ElPrimo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#434785 - 10/23/01 10:38 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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"Is this concept to hard for you to understand? "
Kurtz - there's not much this guy does understand. But I'll bet you this... I bet if it's his kid that gets a chance to go to a good school he'll jump on it. I bet if he has a choice between his kid going to a school with good teachers and computers and such as opposed to one where there are gangs and drugs and such, he'll take it in a New York minute. And not just let his kids rely on character and 'hard work'. LOL .
And Vertigo, I put that in about my climbing the ladder to answer your slur about my job capabilities. And I took it out because it seemed like bragging and was irrelevent to the discussion. You see, I have more class than someone like you could even imagine.
And I am more than aware of the competition and corporate environment. My company is having a RIF and I'm required to lay off 2 people this coming Monday. I've done it before and had it done to me as well. But unlike you, I support systems such as unemployment and the idea of a government safety net. I do the best job I can, but I'm not an ignorant, selfish, cold hearted skin flint... :-)
I support giving all children the best schooling possible. And I believe college tuition should be provided as well. For I know our society will benefit by having an educated populace. Whereas you are only thinking of the dollar in your pocket today, and how somebody might be 'getting something for nothing'. You'd starve 20 people just to get that one lazy guy... Someone once said you should think twice about a guy who thinks most people are cheats....
Edited by ElPrimo (10/23/01 10:57 PM)
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Innvertigo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: ElPrimo]
#435081 - 10/24/01 06:21 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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****I bet if it's his kid that gets a chance to go to a good school he'll jump on it. I bet if he has a choice between his kid going to a school with good teachers and computers and such as opposed to one where there are gangs and drugs and such****
Why would i send my kid to a school that has gangs? Public schools spend more money per studant and they suck....i'd send my kid to a private school or move to a community that's safe..you'll have no argument from me that teachers (a majority) at public schools are idiots
****You see, I have more class than someone like you could even imagine. ****
how could you have class when your a dipshit?...you own a company?...ha ha ha..just goes to show you anyone will buy bullshit.
****And I am more than aware of the competition and corporate environment****
I doubt it.
****But unlike you, I support systems such as unemployment ****
I've never said i don't support unemployment. I said i don't support Welfare as it is today. Keep up brain child.
****I do the best job I can, but I'm not an ignorant, selfish, cold hearted skin flint... :-) ****
no your just a dipshit
****I support giving all children the best schooling possible. ****
as do every american...including myself
****And I believe college tuition should be provided as well. ****
You own a company? do the ecomomics...who's going to pay for it? I bet you want those that are successful to have to support those that are not..so will you be sending a check to your state univ. soon?
****Whereas you are only thinking of the dollar in your pocket today, and how somebody might be 'getting something for nothing'. ****
no i'm thinking basic ecomomics. You should try it
*****You'd starve 20 people just to get that one lazy guy******
Who's starving?...and what the hell are you trying to say?..you make no sense.
****Someone once said you should think twice about a guy who thinks most people are cheats.... ****
would that someone be you?...someone also said never trust someone who wants something for nothing.
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
Edited by Innvertigo (10/24/01 06:25 AM)
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ElPrimo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#435644 - 10/24/01 05:16 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Jeez, I wonder where that word 'dipshit' comes from? beats me... but I know who generally uses it...
Low class, white trash one step removed from a trailer park.
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MrKurtz
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#435943 - 10/24/01 09:25 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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"he he..i love it when people say that. I'll take your word for it. Am i supposed to be impressed? Does that mean you know more about "real" life then I do?...for the sake of argument i believe you...I didn't grow up in the hood..i grew up in a little hick town called Algonac in SE Michigan. "
Eh, why do you think I was trying to impress you? It's not something be proud of, living in poverty and all. But, I think I would know a little more about how its like growing up in a poor area then you.
"get out of the past it's a little unbecomming. Now adays, with the exception of the truly poor, it's a choice to live there. Not everyone can live in hollywood. "
Eh, and most black people living in ghetto-like areas ARE truly poor. Your a dumbass if you think people live in poverty for the hell of it. Unless you're saying black people are generally lazy and self righteous?
"It's not that i don't understand, it's just pathetic that's all. Noting can stop a Black man/woman from succedding but him/herself..i will grant you that times have changed and in the past it was hard for them but now it is just a pathetic excuse. I work with african americans that make 6 figures and they did work their way up."
I'm sure thats true. You seem to be someone who really believes if someone doesn't give there life to a cause they are pathetic. Is it then fair that a black man has to work 3 times harder then you to get the same position? I mean, he could do it, but had to work a hell of alot harder to even get to that job interview. So is it therefore fair because he can theoritcally get the same job as you, or even better?
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MrKurtz
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#435945 - 10/24/01 09:28 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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"Why would i send my kid to a school that has gangs? Public schools spend more money per studant and they suck....i'd send my kid to a private school or move to a community that's safe..you'll have no argument from me that teachers (a majority) at public schools are idiots "
No shit genius... the problem is the majority of people who are in these bad communities are there cause they can't afford to move to a better one, much less send there kids to private school.
"I've never said i don't support unemployment. I said i don't support Welfare as it is today. Keep up brain child. "
So you support poverty?
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Innvertigo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: ElPrimo]
#436211 - 10/25/01 06:09 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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****but I know who generally uses it****
I use it quite frequently..refering to you ofcourse
****Low class, white trash one step removed from a trailer park. ****
that is a fitting signature...make it permanent
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Innvertigo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: MrKurtz]
#436221 - 10/25/01 06:26 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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****It's not something be proud of, living in poverty and all****
The reason i don't believe you is because people use that to justify thier stance on position due to experience. It's over used and the word Poverty is not accurate. Do you have a TV, Car...etc. If you live in the United states and make around 15,000 (i can't remember the exact amount) a year you're considered to be in poverty....people in africa are in poverty..not the US.
****But, I think I would know a little more about how its like growing up in a poor area then you.****
I rest my case
****Eh, and most black people living in ghetto-like areas ARE truly poor****
Go to a poor area in Detroit and you will find the "Projects"...then in front of these sit Mercedes, Corvettes, and BMW's...Poverty must be tough
****Your a dumbass if you think people live in poverty for the hell of it****
Some are lazy some are truly poor due to unforseen circumstances..i say help the truly poor...but no handouts...you should have to work for what you want if it's possible
****Unless you're saying black people are generally lazy and self righteous****
not just black people...there are many whites that are lazy as well.....what does color have to do with it?
****You seem to be someone who really believes if someone doesn't give there life to a cause they are pathetic****
If you complain that you're not successful but haven't tried...then yes they are pathetic...nothing says that you have to reach your goal to be successful. The journey is usually very rewarding.
****it then fair that a black man has to work 3 times harder then you to get the same position? ****
You've been watching to much cable TV...i forgot you're in poverty...Basic TV. This is a bullshit stat.
****I mean, he could do it, but had to work a hell of alot harder to even get to that job interview. ****
Well one of my bosses is black and he must be on the fast track because he's been there about the same amount of time as i do..and yes..we're friends too!!
****So is it therefore fair because he can theoritcally get the same job as you, or even better? ****
You're very misinformed
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Innvertigo
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: MrKurtz]
#436223 - 10/25/01 06:28 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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****the problem is the majority of people who are in these bad communities are there cause they can't afford to move to a better one****
If they really wanted to move they would do everything within their power to move...my parents did it..i'm sure they can as well.
****So you support poverty? ****
I support a persons choice to be in Poverty...just like yourself.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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MrKurtz
enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 303
Last seen: 22 years, 5 months
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#436917 - 10/25/01 08:04 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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"****But, I think I would know a little more about how its like growing up in a poor area then you.****
I rest my case "
So personal experience means nothing to you? If you were talking about how life was growing up in a hick town, I would take your word for it, seeing as how you grew up in a hick town.
"Go to a poor area in Detroit and you will find the "Projects"...then in front of these sit Mercedes, Corvettes, and BMW's...Poverty must be tough "
Drug dealers often live in the projects to.. you see plenty of 10 year old piece of shit cars also, my best friends family had to walk to the super market and carry groceries home on there back cause they had no car.
"not just black people...there are many whites that are lazy as well.....what does color have to do with it? "
I said a large majority of black people live in poor urban areas... and from your logic they would then be lazy because if they really wanted to they could leave. Get my point now?
"If you complain that you're not successful but haven't tried...then yes they are pathetic...nothing says that you have to reach your goal to be successful. The journey is usually very rewarding. "
Lots of people try and fail, your point?
"You've been watching to much cable TV...i forgot you're in poverty...Basic TV. This is a bullshit stat. "
And you're oblivious. I didn't give a "stat", i was saying a poor person generally has to work harder, and many black people are poor.
"Well one of my bosses is black and he must be on the fast track because he's been there about the same amount of time as i do..and yes..we're friends too!! "
Thats great, my boss is a German woman. So, because I have a female boss, thats proof enough that women are equal?
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ElPrimo
journeyman
Registered: 09/29/01
Posts: 92
Last seen: 22 years, 5 months
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#437514 - 10/26/01 09:04 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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"I support a persons choice to be in Poverty...just like yourself. "
Yep, Vertigo... people choose eveything that happens to them in life... circumstance has no role in defining anything we do or become..... just like you choose to be a macho, self rightious, dumb ass blowhard.
Although, I actually believe it's because you were molded that way and are just too dumb to see it. But then, I'm a liberal and excuse your ignorance and insensitivity to the fact of your poor environmental upbringing... no doubt a chip off the ol' block.. LOL
Edited by ElPrimo (10/26/01 09:06 AM)
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ElPrimo
journeyman
Registered: 09/29/01
Posts: 92
Last seen: 22 years, 5 months
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: ElPrimo]
#445223 - 11/02/01 09:16 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Hey.. you all remember that sign James Carville had when he was helping elect Clinton in '92?
"It's the Economy, Stupid!"
Well it still is. And all this flag waving ain't gonna mean shit when it comes November and people are out of work.... and afraid of being out of work.
GOPers might have a hard time stealing the next election...
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: ElPrimo]
#447446 - 11/05/01 05:55 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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James Carville is a fucking idiot..nice company
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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philtrick
Stranger
Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 8
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: Innvertigo]
#4902935 - 11/07/05 12:13 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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A few minor things..
Race means very little in America. Rather than race, the real problem is socio-economic standing. The problem for minorities in America isn't their race, it's their starting economic position.
You all scream the 'starving child' card, but how many stories do you see about women on welfare that barely feed their child and use the money in ridiculous ways. It IS a handout that feeds the lazy, unwilling people of this country. I agree that poor single mothers deserve help, but paying them for having a kid every 3 years is stupid. I saw a report where they intervied this single mother in south Dallas about some new welfare laws that were upping the requirement for welfare ot having a child under 3 years old instead of under 5 years old. You know what this lady said? She said, "Well now I have to have a new kid every 3 years instead of every 5."
That is irresponcible and stupid.
At the least, welfare should require that the mother be working a job atleast 20 hours a week and providing additonal help - in the form of food stamps - for the rest of it. Welfare should not be providing a mother with cable television, a nice TV, and a computer. It should be in the form of food stamps for food, and maybe 'children dollars' for children's clothing and goods.
People who don't attempt to work, don't deserve to be paid. Look at all the of illegal immigrants who line up along roads and work for 3$ an hour and support themselves and their families in Mexico. That's capitalism, and people willing to work coming together.
On the whole worker value-added argument. What kind of skills does it take to work a cash register? You barely have to know math. Any retard off the street can do it, so you offer the job to the person willing to work for the least amount of pay. You get to more difficult jobs, where you require training and such, and you offer more pay. Most hard manual labor jobs that require skill, such as carving and such, are done by machine in today's world. All of the 'training' is educational, so the well-paying jobs are the jobs that fewer people are qualified for. It would be a good thing to have more education, because it would increase competition for these jobs, and the salaries would drop, so overall business costs would drop, and prices would drop as well.
But now, you have a problem. The top earners in America pay 40+% of their income yearly to the Federal government. Middle earners (30-40k) pay more like 10%. This makes the income-to-benefit curve a logarithmic type curve where as income grows, benefit/income decreases. This harms incentives to get to the top, so only the most ambitious and interested work toward the top -- the people who can make the most out of it. This is a problem as we get more people who want to take advantage of the system since there are not alot of 'qualified' people for the position, and additionally, pumps their salaries up in an attempt to attract more people to these positions. On the other end of this, you have welfare where people don't have to do jack but fuck each other and have kids to get paid. The current welfare doesn't ensure that they take care of the kids.
...
This is a longass post, and i'm getting tired and can't remember everything I wanted to address. But, here's a summary of what I think.
America's problem is not racial, but socio-economical. We encourage people to be poor with a generous welfare system without having safe-checks to ensure that this money is well-spent. We discourage people from climbing to the very top because that marginal benefit just isn't worth the additonal marginal effort for most people. Our schools are a mess due to many many many reasons, and simply throwing more money at them isn't going to fix it.
Oh, one more rant. The government should NEVER bail companies out. Examples: Chysler, the airlines..
It's just bad for everybody but the airline employees, who are overpaid for their jobs due to the ending of government regulation of prices. Inefficient companies SHOULD fail.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: GOP economic policy, a ticking timebomb? [Re: philtrick]
#4903869 - 11/07/05 10:04 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
You all scream the 'starving child' card, but how many stories do you see about women on welfare that barely feed their child and use the money in ridiculous ways. It IS a handout that feeds the lazy, unwilling people of this country. I agree that poor single mothers deserve help, but paying them for having a kid every 3 years is stupid. I saw a report where they intervied this single mother in south Dallas about some new welfare laws that were upping the requirement for welfare ot having a child under 3 years old instead of under 5 years old. You know what this lady said? She said, "Well now I have to have a new kid every 3 years instead of every 5."
That is irresponcible and stupid.
Do you have any statistics here that show a trend, or are you committing the fallacy of hasty generalization?
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