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 silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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 Fuck Welfare! 
#1602380 - 06/02/03 06:21 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Bet you never expected me to say that. Let me explain. While I do not for a second believe that the majority of people on welfare are just plain lazy, I don't think welfare is the answer. We need to go to the source of the problem.
So let's examine what exactly the problem is:
The poor have been cheated out of a ton of opportunities that most of us take for granted. Most poor people attend underfunded inner-city schools that often do not have computers, libraries, or many other such facilities. The classrooms are often over-crowded, making it difficult to learn. The teachers tend to be afraid of the students. These schools get far less funding than public schools in more affluent areas. This is partly the government's fault, but mostly it's the voters' fault. Voters continually strike down ballot measures which increase funding for schools in general, and especially for inner-city schools.
So to all you people who say poor people are lazy and stupid, cast your vote to get them a better education, and then we'll see how lazy and stupid they are. Of course, I have only identified a small part of a much more complicated problem. I will bring up other causes of poverty in future posts.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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 rommstein2001
Rise ye Must!
Registered: 05/10/01
Posts: 3,182
Loc: South GA
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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I grew up in an inner-city with under-funded schools and teachers getting beat. MANY of the people there grew up and got good jobs, good pay, etc. etc. etc. Bad schooling is just another excuse used by the lazy. If you have the will to succeed, no matter where you are you will succeed.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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I agree that some of the best students from inner-city schools can make it, but not the average student. Seriously, what percentage of the students there went on to college?
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Solo
enthusiast
Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 257
Last seen: 19 years, 11 months
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Quote:
Bet you never expected me to say that.
Your right, I didn't.
Let me explain. While I do not for a second believe that the majority of people on welfare are just plain lazy,
Neither do I (and I bet you didn't expect ME to say THAT).
I don't think welfare is the answer.
We agree here.
We need to go to the source of the problem.
So let's examine what exactly the problem is:
The poor have been cheated out of a ton of opportunities that most of us take for granted.
I grew up poor, and my mother and father grew up on welfare and we DO NOT AGREE that poor people have been CHEATED.
They do not HAVE the same opportunites as wealthy people. That is very different than BEING CHEATED. Life is not fair.
Most poor people attend underfunded inner-city schools that often do not have computers, libraries, or many other such facilities.
That may be true. However, many other things are also true. Many come from single parent homes. Many parents have children when they can not afford them. The system is set up so TAXES pay for children that people can not afford. That is bad. The problems start LONG BEFORE poor children enter school.
With a solid, stable, SUPPORTIVE family poor children can and do do quite well. With the consistent loving involvement with capable parents children EXCEL. They can get scholorships and if not, GRANTS for college. That's right. FREE COLLEGE!
The classrooms are often over-crowded, making it difficult to learn.
Yes, true. But with good parenting children will apply themselves with study AFTER SCHOOL. If parents are not able or willing to provide this support and guidance they should not be parents...ESPECIALLY if they are poor.
The teachers tend to be afraid of the students.
No shit dude. I live in the hood and I don't blame them. Other students are afraid of many students, and with good reason! The problem starts long before school age.
These schools get far less funding than public schools in more affluent areas.
Yep. They do. Life is not fair. I don't think wealthy people owe me anything. I grew up poor.
This is partly the government's fault, but mostly it's the voters' fault.
Blame does not solve anything. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY is the only solution.
Voters continually strike down ballot measures which increase funding for schools in general, and especially for inner-city schools.
The pubilc school system sucks and should be overhauled. Changing the system so that the school system is not run by the government is the anwser. There should be competing school systems so that the shitty ones can be taken over by companies that produce results.
So to all you people who say poor people are lazy and stupid, cast your vote to get them a better education, and then we'll see how lazy and stupid they are.
Sorry dude, but that is not the anwser.
Of course, I have only identified a small part of a much more complicated problem. I will bring up other causes of poverty in future posts.
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,760
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 40 minutes, 22 seconds
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 Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: Solo]
#1602534 - 06/02/03 07:17 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm getting free college.
Free college rawks.
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This space for rent
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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What you don't seem to understand is it IS the students. It's not cool to do school work, get good grades, learn how to spell, speak clear and concise English, and the like. As a business owner I can tell you, and those who will admit it will most likely agree, I'll hire the applicant who seems to care. This includes all the above factors. When the students don't care enough to get good grades and make themselves presentable, THEY suffer by not being hired. Customers, like it or not, often judge a store by the actions, demeanor, and yes, looks. They don't want to have to strain to figure out if someone is a moron or just didn't take the time to learn how to communicate.
These skills don't require expensive schools. If someone wants to learn to spell they can. As a matter of fact in this country, anyone (not retarded or otherwise learning impaired) CAN learn whatever they wish in their pre college-years. IF THEY CARE TO.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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 Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: Solo]
#1602582 - 06/02/03 07:32 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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You've identified another source of poverty: unwanted children. While it's true that people shouldn't be having children that they can't afford to raise, the children are left in a situation which they do not deserve to be in. My proposed solution(a lot of conservatives are not gonna like this): Make both abortions and birth control more readily available and convenient.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,760
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 40 minutes, 22 seconds
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I personally hope the government is working on a new designer virus that leaves it's victims perfectly healthy, but sterile.
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This space for rent
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Quote:
I personally hope the government is working on a new designer virus that leaves it's victims perfectly healthy, but sterile.
Yes, and then smears it all over food stamps and welfare checks.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Zoning also affects a student's likelihood of escaping poverty. If the poor are isolated from the rest of society, they can be shoved aside and disregarded. However, if you bring middle-income housing closer to lower-income housing, you bring with it better schools and facilities.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Quote:
Most poor people attend underfunded inner-city schools that often do not have computers,
not to split hais but the detroit public school gets more per student than private and home schooled children..
Quote:
schools get far less funding than public schools in more affluent areas.
see above.
Quote:
This is partly the government's fault, but mostly it's the voters' fault. Voters continually strike down ballot measures which increase funding for schools in general, and especially for inner-city schools.
Money has NEVER been the cure to these problems. There are THOUSANDS of reports out there that prove this. I will agree that classrooms should be smaller and in better repair but what happened to the money that they were given by the state and federal govt? maybe the cause of the problems is within the administration and teacher level?
It is NOT the voters fault. The voters want vouchers. This is a continuing theme in the inner city but sniviling little liberals think that they know better as to what inner city people want. (Even though a majority of inner city families are in favor of vouchers)
Quote:
So to all you people who say poor people are lazy and stupid, cast your vote to get them a better education, and then we'll see how lazy and stupid they are. Of course, I have only identified a small part of a much more complicated problem. I will bring up other causes of poverty in future posts.
This whole thread had nothing to do with welfare and everything to do with the public education failure.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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hongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 20 years, 4 months
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Good post. This is sort of what I was driving at in the other welfare thread--exploring a long-term reform that gets past the symptoms.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: hongomon]
#1603304 - 06/02/03 11:30 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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The problem is that the conservatives don't favor any reform that has any positive effect on the poor(except for vouchers).
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Yes, and then smears it all over food stamps and welfare checks.
Don't forget wheelchairs.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Unfortunately it was decided in the early 80's to follow economic policies that would result in the creation of enormous numbers of poor people with zero opportunity. This situation didn't happen by "accident". The rich have decided they can make more profit by driving down wages, destroying unions and creating an enormous army of poor. Then use a subservient media to attack them for being "idle" and hope the rest of the population are too fucking stupid to see through it.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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JohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 21 years, 3 months
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: Xlea321]
#1603434 - 06/03/03 12:31 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think that our welfare problem needs to be addressed as such:
firstly, everyone one welfare is already recieving pay from the government, and medical benefit from the government. Lets put them to work doing anything. Shoveling snow off sidewalks, helping the elderly. If the welfare momma's had a day care for other welfare momma's kids, hopefuly SOME of the mothers would have the opportunity to get good jobs. The able-bodied people on welfare could go out and pick trash up off the street, whatever. The quality of the work we assign to them doesn't matter, because we'd still be giving them the same things they are beign given now, and they aren't doing anything. Therefore, anything we can have them do to contribute to the community will be MORE than they are doing now. Daycare centers run by welfare recipients for welfare recipients kids would, I'm sure, lessen the burden on a large majority of welfare families, and help them get decent jobs (or education, or learn a trade)
Secondly, we need to have the welfare recipients to STOP PROCREATING AT SUCH A FAST RATE. This isn't a matter of me disliking them and wanting their to be less of them, it's a matter of "if you can't support your FIRST kid without government money, why have another kid" (of course, that kid gets them more money too)
Third, drug testing for all welfare recipients. I am sure that this will draw alot of heat, but I think it's for the best. the argument that people make for legalizing drugs is "Why can't educated adults do as they please in the privacy of their own homes?". I agree that their isn't really a reason, UNLESS the person we are speaking of has claimed themselves so destitute that they can't work at all (for some reason). If you can afford drugs, you are being given too much money.
Forth, the US govt needs to organize a system of trade-schools where companies (constrction, electrician, etc) come in and teach welfare recipets how to work. They get soem sort of certification, and in return, the company gets people that are trained to perform certain tasks that benefit the company. This would lead to education of the welfare recipients, and give them an easy lead into a job.
Welfare is supposed to carry people through tough times, not become a way of life for people. If it's somewhat difficult being on the conditions I outlined, well, maybe it'll inspire them to get soem education, or find a decent job. I personally would never demean anyone else for any job they are doing (it's just as important for someone to wax the floors in a hospital as it is for their to be nurses there), so these peopel shouldn't feel as if the jobs they'd be required to do while on welfare (trash pickup, for example) are demeaning. Maybe being compelled into some sort of less-than-glamorous labor as that would give them the push they need to attend some sort of classes, learn a job, and get a job.
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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: Xlea321]
#1603684 - 06/03/03 04:02 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yes, and then smears it all over food stamps and welfare checks.
Don't forget wheelchairs.
Thanks, almost forgot those. Hearings aids and seeing eye dogs as well.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,760
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 40 minutes, 22 seconds
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Don't forget money.
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This space for rent
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,760
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 40 minutes, 22 seconds
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What about Medical Marijuana users? I wouldn't want someone with fused vertabrae losing their disability because they were using an unrecognized medicine to treat pain.
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This space for rent
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angryshroom
Stranger
Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,264
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I live in a town which is actually the only county in CA which allows homeless to live here. They have set up a few homeless camps near the river and under this bridge. So I see a lot of ho-bo's walking around asking for quarters and shit.
Just recently I've been pissed off by it.
They get annoying as hell...but then I realize...these people (mostly men) are either fucked up from drugs, or just have some sort of mental problem. I think more often than not they have mental problems...They do not think correctly...they dont even really smell like alcohol ever. I dont ever seeing them drinking.
I have a few stories about some of them. A lot play guitar and make money from that on the street. THis one ho-bo told me NEVER to give stuff to other bums (even himself) because they get through just fine. I asked him "how do you make money?!" he said that he gets like $100 per day from playing his gutair on the street. So I think he either must be lazy or just doesn't care about getting a real job...witht hat money he could buy some nice clothes, a razor and a shower to maybe get a job.
But what it ocmes down to is that to get a job, you need an address, or a phone number. How, when you're SO LOW, that you dont have either of those, and there is no way of having a real income, do you get an address to actually get an okay part-time job!?!?!
Seems like they should get some federal money for a time period...only for 6-8 months, while they try to get a job. Then they should have to check into the office or whatever they get the government funding from...if they are still not making progress, then they shouldn't get money anymore
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Anonymous
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Who cares about all these problems? Lets ignore it and go back to watching TV.
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Solo
enthusiast
Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 257
Last seen: 19 years, 11 months
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: Xlea321]
#1604296 - 06/03/03 11:05 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Unfortunately it was decided in the early 80's to follow economic policies that would result in the creation of enormous numbers of poor people with zero opportunity.
Democratic policy is what keeps people poor. Entitlement programs and hand outs that do not make people work for their keep. This is what keeps people poor and creates more poor people. Welfare, etc...
This situation didn't happen by "accident". The rich have decided they can make more profit by driving down wages, destroying unions and creating an enormous army of poor.
Sorry dude, but Democrats benefit from poor votes, not the rich. How many welfare people vote republican? The armies of poor people do not work and vote democratic so they can continue to recieve free hand outs without helping themselves improve.
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JohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 21 years, 3 months
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I agree with you. Medical Marijuana would be acceptable, as would medical opiates.
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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!
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JohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 21 years, 3 months
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I also think that the federal/state government needs to more closely monitor those that are on welfare. The ones that really can do the work and just aren't looking for jobs shouldn't be allowed to recieve any federal benefits. The problem is that people on welfare basically get free money, free healthcare, and a free place to live. Would YOU want to work if all of your basic needs were taken are of for you?
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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!
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Skikid16
fungus fan
Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
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That's why they should earn the handouts.
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Re-Defeat Bush in '04
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: Solo]
#1604422 - 06/03/03 11:50 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sorry dude, but Democrats benefit from poor votes, not the rich. How many welfare people vote republican?
A better question: How many welfare people even vote? The answer: not very many. The Democratic strongholds are in working-class areas where unions are strong and there's lots of minorities.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Solo
enthusiast
Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 257
Last seen: 19 years, 11 months
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Quote:
Quote:
Sorry dude, but Democrats benefit from poor votes, not the rich. How many welfare people vote republican?
A better question: How many welfare people even vote? The answer: not very many. The Democratic strongholds are in working-class areas where unions are strong and there's lots of minorities.
I'll take your word for it, but I thought this thread was about welfare.
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: Solo]
#1606680 - 06/03/03 11:48 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Democratic policy is what keeps people poor. Entitlement programs and hand outs that do not make people work for their keep. This is what keeps people poor and creates more poor people. Welfare, etc...
Nah, to force through free market(rigged for the rich) policy you need to create enormous numbers of desperate and poor people first. This was blatantly obvious in the UK when before Thatcher implemented her lunacy she drove unemployment way past 3 million first. Before you can start driving down wages, destroying unions and workers rights you need lots of desperate people. Otherwise it isn't going to work. Once you've created huge numbers of desperately poor you can start forcing them into slave labour and "improving conditions for business".
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Psilocybeingzz
Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
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Quote:
So to all you people who say poor people are lazy and stupid, cast your vote to get them a better education, and then we'll see how lazy and stupid they are. Of course, I have only identified a small part of a much more complicated problem. I will bring up other causes of poverty in future posts.
very true
your a smart guy with your heart in the right place
personally I belive ALL post secondary education should be free
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,760
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 40 minutes, 22 seconds
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College is free. Haven't you heard of the "Pell Grant"? If you're as poor as I am, and are either over 25 or have parents that are also as poor as I am the Pell will pay for all of your tuition and books. (Grants are money you don't have to pay back.)
And with Stafford loans It's not difficult to get by working 15 hours a week or less. Those do have to be paid back though, but not as long as you stay in school.
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This space for rent
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Cracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,809
Loc: Swamp
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Quote:
The classrooms are often over-crowded, making it difficult to learn. The teachers tend to be afraid of the students. These schools get far less funding than public schools in more affluent areas.
The schools in my county get paid too fucking much and suck ass. That's what magnet schools are for. I goto this public school out in the neighboring county that's the equivelent to a private school.
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The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
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Solo
enthusiast
Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 257
Last seen: 19 years, 11 months
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: Xlea321]
#1608533 - 06/04/03 04:08 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Democratic policy is what keeps people poor. Entitlement programs and hand outs that do not make people work for their keep. This is what keeps people poor and creates more poor people. Welfare, etc...
Nah, to force through free market(rigged for the rich) policy you need to create enormous numbers of desperate and poor people first.
I live in the USA and am not familiar with UK economics. Here the democrats are the ones who support policies that keep people down. Welfare is a perfect example. Collect a check from other people's taxes, free apartment, free food, free clothes, free medical care.....
This is BAD, not good.
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Skikid16
fungus fan
Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: Solo]
#1608640 - 06/04/03 04:43 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Dude, you are bringing up great points, but you are killing me with your inability to use the quote function. Throw us a bone.  Quote:
Welfare is a perfect example. Collect a check from other people's taxes, free apartment, free food, free clothes, free medical care.....
This is BAD, not good.
While I agree that the current system is flawed, I don't think it should be abandonned. I think it needs reform.
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Re-Defeat Bush in '04
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: Solo]
#1609749 - 06/04/03 11:16 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Welfare is a perfect example. Collect a check from other people's taxes, free apartment, free food, free clothes, free medical care.....
You're right. We should just let them starve. That would be "good".
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: Xlea321]
#1609778 - 06/04/03 11:24 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Let them starve? Wouldn't they be letting themselves starve? It's funny, people sneak into this country from Mexico with no possesion but what they can carry with them, get jobs feed themselves and their families live better than they ever could in Mexico and then send money back home! Yet, native born people will starve if they don't live off the labor and ingenuity of others?
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Fuck Welfare! [Re: Evolving]
#1610555 - 06/05/03 03:54 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Gosh Evolving, that requires personal responsibility. Surely you can't be suggesting that?
You mean spirited bastard!
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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