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InvisibleCJay
Dark Stranger
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Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: psilomonkey]
    #3856275 - 03/02/05 08:29 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Governments grant themselves and their agents the privilege of restricting your excerise of rights, by talking your life if necessary. They would say that they have the right to, because they represent the majority.




Tyranny of the majority in effect

- or at least tyranny of the government, that after being elected by a majority decides it will please itself without honouring its commitment to the voters as laid out in its manifesto.

- It's usually a pretty slim majority that gets these governments in in the first place. And usually this so called majority is not a majority in terms of the population as a whole.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: Cyber]
    #3857065 - 03/02/05 11:50 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Cyber said:
It has become painfully obvious that you do not understand what a right is. Your response to my freedom of religious belief made little to no sense. There beliefs exist, some people hold them. They have that right. Whether these views are destructive to your view of society is irrelevant.

Your statement of " Well anyone can taut the fact that all men are/were created equal but this is ultimately not the case; in no way am I suggesting that they don't deserve the respect and consideration that is indeed allotted to humans, but ultimately, we are not all created equal." Only leads me to the conclusion that you believe that some people are above others giving them the ability to decided what is best for those who are of lesser stature.

This is again shown with your statement of "To a degree we have inalienable rights, but also note that individual merit and accounting for an individuals behavior under such parameters that are in fact under question should be tested/quantified first; then and only then should we suggest which rights they are allotted. " So I ask you a simple question, In your world who decides?

Your whole bit about working at a nuclear reactor is moot! It is a job, you do not have a right to a job! More power to you, if you can get one but, there is no right to have a job!






http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=right

Well, review the definition yourself.

Ermmm, right... Anyhow, my point is that rights should be consistant and given to the extent that one can have them. Sorry if that confused you, thought I made it clear, many a time over. Like it or not, some people are above others, sorry, we can stick to old regurgatations that aren't applicable to the real world as much as you want, but it isn't the reality of the world, more of an ideal.

As for your view of religion, you're more then entitled to it, but really, it isn't working in society at large today, and only intensifies group conflict... If you don't mind group warfare, and petty bickering, then that's ok. Sorry, doesn't make sense to willingly allow a catalyst into a society to that degree only to know that it ultimately will prove to be a detriment. E.G. do you go online and seek out a virus/worm/trojan willingly knowing that it will undoubtedly cause harm to your PC? Or do you attempt to prevent it to the degree possible?

As far as who decides what rights are allotted, it isn't any one person, but more so those that can think ahead and denote what rights should and shouldn't be alotted to an individual on the basis of their characteristics.... one size doesn't fit all. Like it or not, not everyone can think for themselves. Sorry, not trying to be an ass or anything, but how daft do you have to be... It is clear that not everyone is created equal. Like it or not, someone with congenital birth defects, and/or lifelong ailments most certainly wasn't created equally, doesn't mean that they should be denied basic freedoms, but to the degree that they are capable of operating under their established condition. Clear enough?

Wow, as for the last statement... Well, sure they aren't given the right to have a job, but under you're carefree do as you please anachrism, life will ultimately be filled with strife. Those that do have jobs aren't going to fare well especially since you believe that everyone is created equal i.e. they will not only be a danger to themselves, but additionally all those they work with, (Note: as for the jobs, don't take it literally, is more for a demonstration of what i believe). Face the facts, not everyone is created equal; I'm merely suggesting that an individual's rights should be consistant with their ability to utilize them, such that don't cause harm to others... If you want to do drugs, have at it, your body, I'm implying in no way that the government has any ownership of your personal conduct to the degree that it doesn't affect another. However, If you're doing drugs, and are not only a harm to yourself, but to others as well.. needless to say, you shouldn't be allowed the right to utilze them (abstract examples, don't read to deep... hope you caught the gist of what I'm saying). Idealism is only applicable to a certain degree in the real world, like it or not. Why not have a better form of governance concerning rights with a basis that lies on rational concepts instead of one based on flawed syllogisms?


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/02/05 01:30 PM)

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OfflineCyber
Ash
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 1,476
Loc: Dearborn Michigan
Last seen: 10 months, 6 days
Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3857651 - 03/02/05 02:23 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Psychoactive1984,

I understand what you are saying but there are so many flaws in it I almost do not know where to start.

You are a socialist (Not stated to be mean just a statement of your ideals)

To believe that a group of people can decided what rights you should have has many problems. So many that I am just going to use one example.
You said "As far as who decides what rights are allotted, it isn't any one person, but more so those that can think ahead and denote what rights should and shouldn't be allotted to an individual on the basis of their characteristics."

So are you saying that the founding Fathers were right in only giving blacks a status of 1/3 of a person? Because "those that can think ahead and denote what rights should and shouldn't be allotted to an individual on the basis of their characteristics." made that decision.

We treated them as second class citizens for 100's of years because of "those that can think ahead and denote what rights should and shouldn't be allotted"

It is a dangerous road you travel my friend. A road that leads to a ruling class and a sub class with the ruling class deciding what is right and wrong.

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Invisible4bin
Sofa Gazer

Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 122
Loc: 46 & 2
Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3857823 - 03/02/05 03:05 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

I hate even responding to this, except that you were just so wrong in nearly everything you wrote. It seems like a borderline flame, as your response had no substance, only anger and bias. You didn't even bother to understand most of the issues that you found fault with (hermeneutics and sutras come to mind), and you dismissed the idea of holding contradictory thoughts in mind without even realizing that it is the only way to come to an informed position. I didn't even know that anyone could give argument with that...

Yes, I am an academic. But I guess all that "book learnin'" is beneath you.

...and I could do a line by line response to your various misunderstandings and "specious" word choices in a slightly more balanced manner than you did mine, but it wouldn't do any good.

"Common people talk about people. Average people talk about events. The intelligent discuss ideas." --*name that quote

Edited by 4bin (03/02/05 03:17 PM)

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Invisible4bin
Sofa Gazer

Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 122
Loc: 46 & 2
Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: Cyber]
    #3857847 - 03/02/05 03:10 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Cyber said:
It is a dangerous road you travel my friend. A road that leads to a ruling class and a sub class with the ruling class deciding what is right and wrong.




Hard to argue with you, except that I'm a little confused how this works out to a socialist position? I only ask to be enlightened.


--------------------
I grow legal edibles only. Fresh Shiitake are the bee's knees - like, straight from the fridge.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Individual Vs Collective Rights [Re: Cyber]
    #3859752 - 03/02/05 08:52 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Cyber said:
Psychoactive1984,

I understand what you are saying but there are so many flaws in it I almost do not know where to start.

You are a socialist (Not stated to be mean just a statement of your ideals)

To believe that a group of people can decided what rights you should have has many problems. So many that I am just going to use one example.
You said "As far as who decides what rights are allotted, it isn't any one person, but more so those that can think ahead and denote what rights should and shouldn't be allotted to an individual on the basis of their characteristics."

So are you saying that the founding Fathers were right in only giving blacks a status of 1/3 of a person? Because "those that can think ahead and denote what rights should and shouldn't be allotted to an individual on the basis of their characteristics." made that decision.

We treated them as second class citizens for 100's of years because of "those that can think ahead and denote what rights should and shouldn't be allotted"

It is a dangerous road you travel my friend. A road that leads to a ruling class and a sub class with the ruling class deciding what is right and wrong.




Ermmm, misconstrue all you wish, I said nothing to that effect. All basic freedoms of equality should be granted. I was suggesting "special rights" that are granted according to an individual's ability to utilize them ... e.g. driving in our current systems basis should be established on the ability of the persons ability to be afforded the right. I'm not saying that just because someone is born differently in terms of skill, physical strength or anything to that denomination they should be treated differently. Merely that people should be afforded "special rights/licensing" on the basis of their ability not to inflict harm to others..

Shit, go ahead harm yourself to whatever degree is necessary, I don't care, wasn't what I was getting across, only that restraints that require additional capacities of intellect/coordination and the like be given on the basis of merit, and not on assignment because your a Human. Like it or not, all people aren't born with the knowledge of how to drive (I know well played out example, easiest to relate to in our case), such that you wouldn't give someone the "right" to drive without first judging that they are indeed aware of how to drive. Not second class, special class (in the good sense).

Beyond that, you must realize that as long as we are talking about flawed statements an individuals rights are determined by a select group of people, and will essentially always be. Their will always be some degree of stratification of power within any system of governance, the only issue is not about fighting it, but to what degree it is exercised, and whether or not the form is serving the
interest it was meant to: to benefit society at large, and not to subdue an individuals freedoms to the extent that they exercise self control.

Edit: Only a socialist concerning social rights, not actually in regards to financial considerations among others. Take the parts that work for affording rights and constructing a system, toss out the unnecessary elements that are no longer functioning. PM me Cyber if you want me to break it down line by line. Sorry, I thought I was being clear.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/03/05 10:19 PM)

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